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TOPIC: The AFA and the truth.....

RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 11:40 #106

  • Jaye Perry
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Rick Burten-
Actually, between full and part-time, approximately 8-8 1/2 years

mmmm, Guild Board, RFJ testing post #95. Only adds up to around 6 years. If that. I might be wrong, but I saw him work. At that time he tried to help me he couldn't stay under a horse for more than 3 minutes. My observations were that he was really, really GREEN!. That was late spring '06. years of experiences shoeing horses, didn't coinside with At that time, with work ethic and work aptitude; IMO & IME.
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 11:59 #107

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Phil Armitage wrote:
Hey Rick, why not let Ron respond?
I'm sure, in his own time, he will if he is so disposed. Mean time, since I'm a "named co-conspirator" I will continue to present the facts as I know and can document them.
I have to tell you friend, your a hell of a better man than Ron and I really don't get why you watch his back as much as you do.
Thanks for the kind words Phil, but from my vantage point, your observation is not quite accurate. And, in direct answer to your question, you answered it yourself when you referred to me as "friend". And as I am that to you and others, so am I that to Ron.
I have never met Ron in person, but experiences I have had with him on this forum have been nasty and he does not give me the impression that he forgives or forgets, like most of us on here do.
Phil my friend, your experiences with just about everyone on the forum have, at some point, been nasty, depending on which Phil we think we are dealing with.:eek: :)

Regardless, I don't stop liking or speaking up/out for my friends just because they have been put under a microscope and a virtual eviceration has been done. In my corner of the sandbox, that's just not how things are done.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 12:30 #108

anvilsteve wrote:
Now, you are posting comments out of context, to further damage the AFA, which seems to be the agenda for Rick & Ron. That's not like you Rick!
Steve,

While Rick and I are good friends you should avoid making allegations that you can not back up. I have no agenda to damage the AFA. Although there are some that would like everyone to believe that because I have an agenda to protect my good name against the lies and half truths that have been and are continuing to be told about me that this in and of itself is an agenda to hurt the AFA. But those people are the same people that think that it is in the AFA's best interest to keep things in the dark or attack those that stand up and ask that things be handled according to the bylaws and board policies. I do not and will not agree that it is a good policy decision to try to destroy individuals that you do not agree with, especially if you do it with misdirection and half truth.

anvilsteve wrote:
Now, those of you who have been following all this, ask yourselves, was I set up by Ron K. so he could look important "rescuing" the AFA. Is he a fireman who starts fires, so he can put them out?
When you ask a question like that it is an accusation, so on what are you basing the accusation. Exactly how do you think I started the fire this time? Or would you prefer to just apologize for making a defamatory accusation now and say everyone the trouble.

anvilsteve wrote:
Why did Ron know the AFA's site was down on a Fri. Nite?
Rick called me. As you recall I was in my truch between clients when I called you. Given the symptoms that Rick reported to me it appeared to me that the symptom was the same as two previous failures, one of which occurred before I resigned and one that occurred shortly after I resigned that I handled with an email and informed the office of.

anvilsteve wrote:
He first called the AFA office and was told to leave it alone. Why did he then call me?
Actually when I called the office I was told that the leadership of the AFA had instructed the office staff to take no action and leave the members only section of the website offline. It disturbed me that the AFA leadership would make a decision that would have left the members only section off line. I called you because you were the last remaining member of the IT Committee and my information from you had it that Mr. Elsbree had asked you to take over the committee should I resign. Of course he asked you several weeks before I decided to resign didn't he? So while I am here I’ll ask why he would do that unless it was his intend to force the situation to the point where I would resign?

anvilsteve wrote:
How did Ron gain access to fix things if the pass words were changed? ( and they were).
Obviously all the passwords were not changes and I outlined how this worked in my email answering your allegation of my having left a "back door" into the system. BTW, you do realize that when you made that allegation you were actually accusing me of a Federal Felony don't you? I guess I should not have felt at all peeved that you would make an accusation like that, but it does get me a bit wound up to have people tossing out accusations like that. If you do like me peeved don’t accuse me of things that could send me to jail.

anvilsteve wrote:
Why did Ron immediately tell Rick about the web site being down and how a board member told him to fix it?
I didn't. But as has been my custom I did copy Rick Burten and Tom Bloomer on all of my correspondence with principles in this matter as a way of preserving the record of the conversation. I learned to do this while working for the AFA because people tend to not share all of the facts about things that happened in the conversations that occur and I feel I need to cover my rear end six ways from Sunday.

anvilsteve wrote:
Why is Rick even bringing this up?
I don't know but I wish he hadn't. Just like I wish Tom had not written that email to you, even if he managed to capture the description of the situation fairly well.

anvilsteve wrote:
The matter was between Ron & me, it did not need to go any further, unless it was to be used as a political tool.
While it was a matter between you and me it was likely never going to stay quite from the AFA side of things and you know it. However, those folks would have kept it all covered up and in the dark while they did it.

anvilsteve wrote:
I feel like I was sucker punched by Ron
For this I am truly sorry, under the circumstances I think I’d feel the same way. I disagreed with Rick when he mentioned it.

anvilsteve wrote:
All this controversy can be traced back to problems with the old website
Unfortunately that dog won't hunt. While the old system was a problem the new system is not. Does the website need a face lift, absolutely. But that said this whole controversy can be tracked back to a very different and more corporeal source. A source with rather less that sterling motives that has used less that honest accusations to assault me. Oh and a source that you have no problem with and that you choose to give a free pass to for its dishonest and unprofessional conduct. Seems to me this is a bit like blaming the tree for jumping out in front of the car because the car is damaged.

anvilsteve wrote:
At this point I suggest that you all disregard anything Ron says on the matter, he will not get past this because he wants to control it.
Nice try Steve but if you go back a few posts I tried to suggest that everyone leave it alone.

I have told everyone here to read the record and make up their own minds. That is one of the wonders of providing documentation to people, nothing you say caries any weight unless it is backed with documentation and you can't lead them down the rosy path when you do. I have back everything I have said with documentation. Go figure out who hasn’t documented their accusations and they have done this repeatedly in writing when attacking me. How many allegations do you think I am suppose to swallow that are vitriolic and untrue before it is OK to say enough is enough? When do you stop covering for the attackers and start saying to them that their behavior is unethical and in violation of the code of conduct of the AFA? Your man enough to accuse me of wrong doing on their word, are you man enough to accuse them of wrong doing on the written record?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 14:24 #109

  • ray steele
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Eric Russell wrote:






I have noticed if you do a better job shoeing a horse you get accepted by your peers much easier. So perhaps Ron should stick to that a little longer.


Baron,

Does your moderator hat still fit?


Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 15:49 #110

  • HoustonFarrier
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I have noticed if you do a better job shoeing a horse you get accepted by your peers much easier. So perhaps Ron should stick to that a little longer.

Obviously, that makes no diffference in the AFA, because from where I stand, there's what....15-20 or so CJF's in the leadership of the AFA, and y'all can't even keep a website up without cutting each others throats. Honestly, sit back and read all the BS.....this whole saga sounds like a pack of pre-pubescent 16 years olds bickering over he-said, she-said, you were snotty to me, he was snotty to him...........I don't say that to be mean, or condescending, but geez gang...look what ALL OF YOU have done....quite frankly, I think is is VERY embarassing. None of you are 100% right......ALL OF YOU are to blame for this whole mess. All it would have taken is ONE EFFECTIVE LEADER, and none of this would have happened.

Leadership is a skill that is not taught at any farrier school, it is not taught at any college...obviously, being a top notch farrier does NOT make you a good leader, as you ALL have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Leadership is a trait that comes from within. It is the ability to get various members of any given team to be WILLING to cooperate and get the job done....and it IS NOT happening in the AFA, as has been demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How do you expect to bring the entire farrier industry in the US together, to a common goal, if you can't even get a website running without all the drama of a soap opera????

Maybe a few MBA's would help the ship run a bit smoother.

Just a few thoughts from an outsider, looking in.......

Steve Wisnieski
Former member of the AFA
SSG (Ret) US Army
President, Texas Draft Horse and Mule Association
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 16:25 #111

  • Cyber Farrier
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ray steele wrote:
Eric Russell wrote:


Baron,

Does your moderator hat still fit?


Regards

Ray Steele

Yup. In this forum (only) is that question/suggestion tenable.

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
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-Mark Twain

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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 16:28 #112

  • George Geist
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HoustonFarrier wrote:
Obviously, that makes no diffference in the AFA, because from where I stand, there's what....15-20 or so CJF's in the leadership of the AFA, and y'all can't even keep a website up without cutting each others throats. Honestly, sit back and read all the BS.....this whole saga sounds like a pack of pre-pubescent 16 years olds bickering over he-said, she-said, you were snotty to me, he was snotty to him...........I don't say that to be mean, or condescending, but geez gang...look what ALL OF YOU have done....quite frankly, I think is is VERY embarassing. None of you are 100% right......ALL OF YOU are to blame for this whole mess. All it would have taken is ONE EFFECTIVE LEADER, and none of this would have happened.

Leadership is a skill that is not taught at any farrier school, it is not taught at any college...obviously, being a top notch farrier does NOT make you a good leader, as you ALL have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Leadership is a trait that comes from within. It is the ability to get various members of any given team to be WILLING to cooperate and get the job done....and it IS NOT happening in the AFA, as has been demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How do you expect to bring the entire farrier industry in the US together, to a common goal, if you can't even get a website running without all the drama of a soap opera????

Maybe a few MBA's would help the ship run a bit smoother.

Just a few thoughts from an outsider, looking in.......

Steve Wisnieski
Former member of the AFA
SSG (Ret) US Army
President, Texas Draft Horse and Mule Association
Excellent points Houston. Couldn't agree with you more.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 20:29 #113

It appears the AFA wants to play a huge role in the Farrier industry, however do not have a clue how to go about it. From what I have seen and heard from others the AFA has had this problem for years and it does not appear it will ever change.

I was thinking all of this related to growing pains, however I am not sure anymore. Way too many egos, bickering, personal agendas, not letting go and so on.

Considering American Farriers seem to do well and do not need the AFA, I wonder how much longer the AFA will be around. Should be figuring out how to gain more members and keep them. Instead the AFA continues to fight change, disregards new research and alienate more and more farriers.

That is my perception, maybe I am wrong. :rolleyes:
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 20:58 #114

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FarrierCarrier wrote:
You guys miss the point. No circumstances justify an unethical financial action..... You all can explain away, the bottom line facts remain the same and NO circumstance can justify the action. What about all the rest of the AFA bills? Why was this bill the ONLY one Rick felt it so necesarry to pay that it drove him to a questionable unethical act? Was it because the IT Committee had the AFA in such a tenous position with the old system leaving eresources that the only way Ron could keep it running was to keep lining the pockets of these "must be paid this second" guys? Thats how it reads on kramedjian,com....

Frank Rothe, Pennsylvania

I think Frank had it right and let the cat out of the bag with the double billing and that's why he was banned from this forum. Who knows how many pockets were getting lined with that stunt. Finally truth is coming out about Rick and Ron's secret agenda and covert operations.

I take one look at www.Kramedjian.com and say WHY THE H*LL WOULD YOU WANT THIS GUY WORKING ON YOUR WEBSITE. HAS ANYONE HERE LOOKED AT Kramedjian's website? I mean that would be like having a farrier show up to do your horse with a hacksaw! If these guys would just resign their memberships now, well maybe more people would join the AFA!

Go Frank, Go AnvilSteve, you guys got it right.

Jacques Stamier
DOB: Jan 10 1960
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 21:03 #115

  • Gary Hill
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HoustonFarrier wrote:
Obviously, that makes no diffference in the AFA, because from where I stand, there's what....15-20 or so CJF's in the leadership of the AFA, and y'all can't even keep a website up without cutting each others throats. Honestly, sit back and read all the BS.....this whole saga sounds like a pack of pre-pubescent 16 years olds bickering over he-said, she-said, you were snotty to me, he was snotty to him...........I don't say that to be mean, or condescending, but geez gang...look what ALL OF YOU have done....quite frankly, I think is is VERY embarassing. None of you are 100% right......ALL OF YOU are to blame for this whole mess. All it would have taken is ONE EFFECTIVE LEADER, and none of this would have happened.

Leadership is a skill that is not taught at any farrier school, it is not taught at any college...obviously, being a top notch farrier does NOT make you a good leader, as you ALL have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Leadership is a trait that comes from within. It is the ability to get various members of any given team to be WILLING to cooperate and get the job done....and it IS NOT happening in the AFA, as has been demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How do you expect to bring the entire farrier industry in the US together, to a common goal, if you can't even get a website running without all the drama of a soap opera????

Maybe a few MBA's would help the ship run a bit smoother.

Just a few thoughts from an outsider, looking in.......

Steve Wisnieski
Former member of the AFA
SSG (Ret) US Army
President, Texas Draft Horse and Mule Association


This is the most truefully statement I have ever read, anywhere!
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 21:06 #116

  • George Geist
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Not looking to condone any type of impropriety here, lets be mindful of the fact that no illegal activity has been proven to have occurred.

I believe if there was any hard evidence of such a thing that Rick and Ron would have bars between them and us right now.

In other words, if they had anything on them they would have been charged with something. Since no charges were filed it says there is no case.

Lets everybody stop feeding the rumor mill on this one. I've agreed and disagreed with those guys on various issues on different occasions but would never question the integrity of either of them.
George
For another fun place to play........
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 22:02 #117

  • Jack Evers
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I think Frank had it right and let the cat out of the bag with the double billing and that's why he was banned from this forum

You're completely off base here and making totally unwarranted assumptions. He was banned for using a phony ID. I don't know what Baron had, but I checked the AFA membership - no Frank Rothe - strange for someone with his apparent inside info. Then I checked the Pennsylvania white pages for Rothe - 20 phones, none to anyone with an initial F. Enough to make me suspicious, I'm sure Baron had more. The AFA has problems and your kind of rumor mill just adds to it. We don't need guesswork.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 22:39 #118

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ray steele wrote:
Eric Russell wrote:


Baron,

Does your moderator hat still fit?


Regards

Ray Steele

I'm not sure what's wrong with the statement I made. I beleive it to be a fact! If you don't agree, do a poll to find out.
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 15 Apr 2008 22:48 #119

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Eric Russell wrote:
ray steele wrote:

I'm not sure what's wrong with the statement I made. I beleive it to be a fact! If you don't agree, do a poll to find out.

Eric,

I don't need to take a poll, Baron has said that in this venue it's ok,
Most often it's preferred that responders stay on subject matter, the reason I raised the issue was I did not see the relevance of a persons ability to shoe a horse compared to the a persons tech ability, as was being discussed but as I said, Baron allows it.


regards

Ray Steele
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RE:The AFA and the truth..... 16 Apr 2008 00:41 #120

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ray steele wrote:
I did not see the relevance of a persons ability to shoe a horse compared to the a persons tech ability,

I don't believe Ron's tech ability was ever brought into question. Hiis ability to get along with others is. From the emails, Elsbree isn't the only one who doesn't get along with Ron. If he became more farrier, less tech, there's the possibility that he'd get along with everyone a little better.

Also, if Ron was in the business a little longer he'd figure out pretty quickly that right before convention, convention becomes priority. There should be no reason why someone should have to point that out to the IT chair.
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