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TOPIC: AFA Certification

RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:12 #226

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Mike Ferrara

If you take away the time constraints it isn't the AFA CJF test.

Quite true! In the interest of accuracy, such a test should be called a Geriatric Test of Motor Skills incorporating every aspect of the AFA CJF practicals except time constraints. Accuracy in nomenclature counts. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:35 #227

  • Mike Ferrara
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TRIP HAMMER wrote:
Phil,
Pretty shoes won't get you certified - good quality work will.

To be accurate, work that meets the AFA specs will get you certified.

Good work looks good; bad work looks bad!

No. Looks just don't tell the whole story unless you consider "looks" as including the overall performance of the horse. A shoeing job can look great and still fail to meet the objectives.

Would I want to pass the test again? I don't need to! I'm already peer reviewed. Are you?
John Blombach

Do you mean "peer reviewed" or AFA reviewed? Who are your peers? Am I one of your peers? I have not reviewed your work and neither the AFA nor any other organization or person are authorized to speak or "review" for me. I'm not AFA certified but my work has certainly been reviewed by quite a few of my peers. To be more specific, the peers who's review I value.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:38 #228

  • TRIP HAMMER
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Sorry but I'd submit that the AFA CJF practical has little relevance to the way most of us shoe horses in 2008.

Mike,

I have never needed to use a hand signal, but I was required to demonstrate their use before I was permitted to drive.

You might be right but I think that in 2008 farriers need to be more skilled than at any other time in history. You are talking about a time when shoeing was just a small part of the business of a blacksmith shop. Today Farriers specialize and do nothing but shoeing and must be able to do the whole job, not just floor work. Therefore it is imperative that we retain the skills of the forge as well as preparing the foot. A foot that is trimmed incorrectly isn't any better than a shoe that is poorly fit and punched for the wrong nail.

The engineer that's turning the knobs, fine tuning the nail hole size and location on your keg shoes has never been under a horse and has no knowledge of farrier science other than what has been learned from those farriers who have taken the time to learn shoe making correctly.

Contrary to popular belief, I use keg shoes almost exclusively in my business. The choice is simple for me. Do I want to make money or do I want to make horseshoes?

That said, lets not loose forever, the skills of our time honored craft.

John Blombach
"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet"
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:42 #229

  • Mike Ferrara
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TRIP HAMMER wrote:
That said, lets not loose forever, the skills of our time honored craft.

John Blombach

John, I agree.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:45 #230

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I certainly wouldn't want to take the CJF test again, have no interest in doing so, or time to devote to the practice necessary to recover any motor skills I once had; however, if you take away the time constraints of the practicals, I'll bet you $1,000 I can still pass every portion of the CJF test. Y'see, I still have a fair grasp of basics. :)

Who the heck would dare to fail you? :D

Not a bet I am willing to take.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:48 #231

TRIP HAMMER wrote:
I don't need to! I'm already peer reviewed. Are you?
John Blombach

Never stop learning John. In my opinion when you stop learning then it is time to walk away.

As for peer reviewed, absolutely by people who continue to learn, that I highly respect and trust. To hear one of them say they trust me is worth a lot. :D
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:54 #232

  • TRIP HAMMER
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
No. Looks just don't tell the whole story unless you consider "looks" as including the overall performance of the horse. A shoeing job can look great and still fail to meet the objectives.

Mike,
A bad job is a bad job period, it is bad and it looks bad. A good job on the other hand is good work and it looks it, period. Good work never looks bad and bad work never looks good. Under what circumstances would a bad job make a horse perform good or the other way around?
John Blombach
"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet"
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 16:59 #233

TRIP HAMMER wrote:
Mike,

I have never needed to use a hand signal, but I was required to demonstrate their use before I was permitted to drive.

Wow your old. Only kidding. :D

TRIP HAMMER wrote:
You might be right but I think that in 2008 farriers need to be more skilled than at any other time in history. You are talking about a time when shoeing was just a small part of the business of a blacksmith shop. Today Farriers specialize and do nothing but shoeing and must be able to do the whole job, not just floor work. Therefore it is imperative that we retain the skills of the forge as well as preparing the foot. A foot that is trimmed incorrectly isn't any better than a shoe that is poorly fit and punched for the wrong nail.


Agree.

TRIP HAMMER wrote:
The engineer that's turning the knobs, fine tuning the nail hole size and location on your keg shoes has never been under a horse and has no knowledge of farrier science other than what has been learned from those farriers who have taken the time to learn shoe making correctly.


Nothing that a 1/8" drill bit can't fix.

TRIP HAMMER wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, I use keg shoes almost exclusively in my business. The choice is simple for me. Do I want to make money or do I want to make horseshoes?

Smart.

TRIP HAMMER wrote:
That said, lets not loose forever, the skills of our time honored craft.

John Blombach


Agree; and you will find many on here members of the AFA or not that totally agree with that. The AFA does not own the craft lock stock and barrel. :)

Well John you and Mr. Stoval and all the other die hard AFA members that lurk have received a lot of good open communications. In my opinion I can give a rat's patootie what you do with it. Use it, modify it or discard it. Don't matter to me.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 17:26 #234

  • Mike Ferrara
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TRIP HAMMER wrote:
Mike,
A bad job is a bad job period, it is bad and it looks bad. A good job on the other hand is good work and it looks it, period. Good work never looks bad and bad work never looks good. Under what circumstances would a bad job make a horse perform good or the other way around?
John Blombach

You're mixing performance and looks. Good work never loosk bad but it might not be right. I've shod plenty of show horses that I had to go back and change. It's not that the original work was bad, it just wasn't right.

If I could figure them all right on the first try, I could make a lot of money without ever bending over or standing in front of a hot forge.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 17:29 #235

  • smitty88
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What did you have to change
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 17:36 #236

  • Mike Ferrara
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smitty88 wrote:
What did you have to change


For the most part, length and/or weight and/or angle on one or more feet.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 18:13 #237

  • solidrockshoer
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Phil Armitage wrote:
What is unfortunate with all that focus on making shoes look pretty very little attention goes into a proper trim and yes the bad word balance.

Yeah, I hate all that focus on basic skills too!:rolleyes:
I would like to see some of the guys that have had there CJF for years stand for the exam today and pass now that life and the real world is busier. I don't think Rick, John or Tom Stoval could do it or would want to do it.

What would be the point of having guys on the backside of there careers retake the cjf?
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 18:32 #238

Phil,

If you want to do a certification with handmades but wish to have the ability to choose the method of balance or to add a rocker or some other modification that may not meet the grading standard of the AFA test why not go for the GPF test?

Rick says you can do a modification so long as you are able to defend its appropriateness to the Guild examiner.

I can't argue with Tom S's point that the perimiter fit is easy to measure and objective. I do feel however that its an achievement to get the Guild cert and the NB cert as well.
George Spear
CNBBT, CNBF, CLS


".....and I said to the horse: Trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal."
Don Vincenzo Giobbe
CA. 1700

"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 21:23 #239

  • TRIP HAMMER
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Guys,
Getting back on course again - back to the AFA Certification testing, in particular the cognitive or intellectual portions of the exam. Good points have been made on improving the pass rate. Not anywhere enough time is spent preparing candidates for the test, the written and how to take and pass tests if you are older and been out of the education environment for long periods.

In summary it appears farriers believe they have the knowledge to pass by virtue of practicing the craft on a daily basis. Of course, if that were true the certification would mean nothing. Maybe more emphasis on relationships between anatomy, physiology, pathology and gail abnormalities. How and why a particular relationship exists and how through trimming and applying shoes using inductive reasoning, decide how a particular problem may be solved.

Practical or psycomotor testing should be accomplished by evaluation against a pre determined criteria such as the AFA's. I have my own ideas about what a proper shoeing job consists of as I expect eveyone else does also. That is what makes us individuals and why our customers seek out our services. Testing requires one standard and one set of rules that apply to all. All testing is like that whether it's a driving test, flying test or shoeing test. Meet the pre established minimum standard or fail. It's a good system - you always know where you stand.
John Blombach
"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet"
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 21:58 #240

George_Spear wrote:
Phil,

If you want to do a certification with handmades but wish to have the ability to choose the method of balance or to add a rocker or some other modification that may not meet the grading standard of the AFA test why not go for the GPF test?

Rick says you can do a modification so long as you are able to defend its appropriateness to the Guild examiner.

I can't argue with Tom S's point that the perimiter fit is easy to measure and objective. I do feel however that its an achievement to get the Guild cert and the NB cert as well.

George good idea, however the Guild and NB Cert. come no where near the Certification the AFA offers. Sorry, but that is a fact. The AFA Cert. is by far the most recognized and considered the most credible certification in the US. Right or wrong it has deep roots and been around for a long time.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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