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TOPIC: AFA Certification

RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 11:28 #196

  • smitty88
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Mike,
if you can make toe weight shoes
i dont see the problem

making a set of plain stam shoes
or concave it aint a big deal

you dont have to change your system
to do this
Smitty88
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 11:28 #197

  • Mike Ferrara
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What about the written test? I haven't seen it but is it stuff that we use on a daily basis? If so, we should all know it off the top of our heads. If not...have you ever heard of using reference material on the job? I spent 16 years as an engineer and I had drawers and cabinets FULL of reference material within arms reach of my desk. There are just too many facts, associated with too many different technologies in the world to memorize that which I can look up when I need, especially when they're facts that I don't need all that often.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 12:09 #198

  • Mike Ferrara
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smitty88 wrote:
Mike,
if you can make toe weight shoes
i dont see the problem

making a set of plain stam shoes
or concave it aint a big deal

you dont have to change your system
to do this

I don't know if it's a problem or a big deal but part of my point was that if I didn't shoe some long footed horses, I probably wouldn't be making shoes at all. As it is, I make a few dozen pairs per year.

I can make the shoes but speed would certainly be an issue. Heck, just shoeing the horse, I'm an hour and a half kind of guy with anything other than a really easy reset.

It would take a fair amount of focused practice to get 4 shoes and a shoeing comfortably inside of two hours.

At this stage of the game, I doubt it's going to happen. I seem to be getting slower rather than faster...better but slower.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 12:24 #199

  • smitty88
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30 mins should make the shoes
there ya go you have your hour and a half
Smitty88
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 12:37 #200

  • Mike Ferrara
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smitty88 wrote:
30 mins should make the shoes
there ya go you have your hour and a half

I don't generally turn out a finished shoe in 7.5 minutes...7 heats maybe but not 7 minutes.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 12:41 #201

  • smitty88
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two many heats 4 max
Smitty88
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 12:48 #202

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Why should anyone be surprised that there is a high failure rate? We're talking about skipping the class and going right to the test Failure is designed into the system. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a high failure rate.

Mike, I totally agree.

My last 10 years in my old job I was a trainer. Worked with young men and women who needed supervision. The education process and test were very involved, but you had a trainer to help.

Talking to a buddy of mine who has been shoeing for 20 years. I just hit my 10th year. He told me it takes 10 years to learn what you need to know and another 10 to figure out how to use it.

The AFA's goal is to get farriers certified with no focus on education. Young farriers are getting their certification and a have a false sense of security that they have also been properly educated. So even if you get your certification your probably still setup for failure. John's success is not from being a certified AFA farrier his success is from years and years of experience and education and good teachers along the way.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 12:54 #203

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smitty88 wrote:
two many heats 4 max

That's just it. I don't build enough shoes to be able to turn out a nice shoe in 4 heats and I probably never will.
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 13:03 #204

I would have no problem if the AFA meant Journeyman the way it is meant. Actually it appears the AFA has things backwards. Certified Farrier should indicate your ready to go and Journeyman your still learning.

I also do not have a problem with requiring handmade. Learning how to make handmade and the practice involved is very valuable.

Seems like Certified Farrier came along to fill a void. Now I see Certified tradesman or something like that is available to the working farrier.

If you ask me the AFA has lost the focus of their mission statement and now focused on quantity instead of quality. Pumping out certified farriers and now targeting the horse owner that AFA Certified farriers are the best is a time bomb that will backfire on the AFA. In my opinion, the AFA should focus on proper education, the Certification process CF and CJF is just a small step in your education.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 13:05 #205

  • smitty88
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Who said anything about nice
every day shoes

pracital shoes for the road
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 13:20 #206

  • solidrockshoer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I don't generally turn out a finished shoe in 7.5 minutes...7 heats maybe but not 7 minutes.

Heat 1- toe (there's no points on the afa test for bumbing)
Heat 2- make heel, turn branch, punch, pritchel
Heat 3- same as heat 2
Heat 4- clip
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 13:23 #207

  • Rick Burten
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Rick has about every certification that there is and has been an examiner and everything else. Rick, when was the last time you turned a shoe? When was the last time you turned 4 shoes as you shod a horse?
Last week.:o

Its not something I do all the time, but even with the O-C number and variety of shoes I carry on my truck, I still carry bar stock because I know that I will, at some point, need it. And, need it I did, last week.

Let me say this too. I 'get' where you are coming from Mike. I don't know that I really disagree with your position. I dont know that I fully agree with your position either.

In recognition of the fact that many of today's farriers don't build shoes, on a regular basis, the AFA has added the Certified Tradesman Farrier level to its certification exams. The CTF practical exam requires that the candidate "shoe four feet with keg shoes using the appropriate shoes and nails. The front shoes will have forged toe clips and the hind shoes will be quarter clipped. The time limit is one and one-half hours(90 minutes)."

In part 2 of the CTF practical, the candidate is required to "forge a hand-made 3/4 fullered, open heel shoe from appropriate bar stock. The shoe shall be forged to fit a pattern foot provided by the AFA Examiner" The time limit is Thirty(30) minutes."

Now, surely you can agree that forging toe clips and quarter clips on keg shoes is something that is routinely done by many farriers on a day to day, or at least weekly basis. And, the ability, as described above, to forge a shoe from bar stock is something that any/every farrier should possess.

So, rather than discussing the CJF exam, and using its requirements as a rationale for not standing for AFA certification, lets discuss the CTF exam.

Now, Phil has said, "Again I will throw out the AFA's only requirement for proper hoof prep. Straight horn, what is there to comprehend? Make it straight right? I say wrong!!! Keep it strong and remove flares within reason."

To which, I respond, Phil, that is not quite accurate. There are many components in the Hoof Preparation section of all the practicals, and each of them is scored individually.

So, lets say, hypothetically, that a candidate has a horse with mis-matched feet to work on. First thing the candidate should do is point that fact out to the Examiner/Tester, and then explain why those feet will never match up and shouldn't be made to match up.

Now, the Examiners and Testers are well versed enough to be able to determine whether or not the Guidelines for scoring have been met, at at what numerical level, 10 being the best and 1 being the worst and a mandatory "stop"(actually, the mandatory stop occurs if a 3 is scored).

Now, since the score for each section of the practical is cumulative, if , hypothetically speaking, the feet don't match but if the candidate had tried to make them match, s/he would have endangered the health/soundness of the horse, but each foot individually has been correctly(per the exam standards) prepped, then while the candidate may get a lower score on that one element of that section of the test, s/he will still be able to overcome that by acheiving higher scores on the other elements of that section of the test.

No one is looking for Bo Derecks(10's) across the board. A candidate has to average 7's for each section of the test in order to be successful. Surely you aren't taking the position that overall scores of less than 7/10 is acceptable work, are you?

And, IMNTBCHO, anyone who cannot fulfill the Rx for that horse on that given day, isn't ready to stand for the exams, regardless of which exam the candidate is standing for.

So for all the folks out there that don't want to have to build shoes from bar stock, I say, stand for the CF and CTF exams. The requirements for successful accomplishment of either of those exams are things that anyone should be able to routinely perform on a daily basis in his/her custom and no candidate should have to change their protocols in order to be successful. After all, I don't think than any of us never fit shoes as required by the certification exams, regardless of level.

For Pete's sake, have you(the nay saying collective) even bothered to recently read the standards?) If so, please specifically point out which individual elements of the practical you are having such a come apart over.

Now, I have limited myself to discussing the practical portion of the exam(s). The written portion is a whole 'nuther subject and fodder for cannons on a different battlefield.

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 13:28 #208

  • Rick Burten
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smitty88 wrote:
Who said anything about nice
every day shoes

pracital shoes for the road
Unfortunately Smitty, "pretty" counts(if not overtly, then subconsciously) when the shoes are evaluated.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 13:33 #209

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smitty88 wrote:
30 mins should make the shoes
there ya go you have your hour and a half
Even if it takes you an hour to build four shoes and another 15 minutes to fit them up, that still leaves 45 minutes to trim , nail and finish. Shouldn't that be enough time for someone who has done any preparation and practice? Especially at the CF and CTF levels where you don't have to build shoes(and I acknowledge that the time limits are shorter, but are, IMO, more than adequate for the job required.

One last thought. The AFA needs to find a way to confirm that a candidate has the minimum number of years required to stand for a given level of the exam.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AFA Certification 13 Apr 2008 13:52 #210

Rick Burten wrote:
So for all the folks out there that don't want to have to build shoes from bar stock, I say, stand for the CF and CTF exams. The requirements for successful accomplishment of either of those exams are things that anyone should be able to routinely perform on a daily basis in his/her custom and no candidate should have to change their protocols in order to be successful. After all, I don't think than any of us never fit shoes as required by the certification exams, regardless of level.

Rick

Sounds good in writing Rick. So why is the failure rate so high, even with tenured older farriers shoeing high end horses everyday?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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