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TOPIC: Whats up with the AFA?

RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 21:39 #46

George Geist wrote:
You been talking to some of the BUA trimmers? That sounds like their rhetoric:rolleyes:
George

George we can't trim most TB off the track to the sole plane because P3 is wreck from being over trimmed on the track when they were babies. :rolleyes:

As for talking to BUA trimmers. No, don't know any.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 21:41 #47

anvilsteve wrote:
George-
In the past, there was a proposal before the USDA to ban all pads for all horse activities, due to abuses by a few. Randy Luikart on behalf of the AFA went to DC and dealt with the matter. We have no lobbyists. The point is that a large national assoc. along with other horses assoc. gives us a lot of clout when legislators do things that directly or indirectly effect us. ie. closing trails to horses, imposing new sensless regulations on horse activities, and sometimes even shoeing issues. Alone, we mean nothing, if a bicycle group wants to ban horses from a trail, for instance. Maybe if that goes through, you loose horses to shoe. It happens.

So one benefit to having a large farrier assoc. is the weight in numbers when we need it.

Steve Kraus, CFJ

And... legislation, influence, and impact are not just elements of lobbying, just as they're not prohibited in all aspects by 501(c)3 status. It's not even a matter of numbers; it's a matter of credibility. That's why the Andalusian Association and the Friesian Association have both consulted the AFA about their breed rules this year.
~~Danvers

Danvers Child, CJF

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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 21:47 #48

reillyshoe wrote:
If the certification process is about working to an "arbitrary standard", switch away from the perimeter fit for a few years. Imagine what would happen if the AFA required a NB trim/shoe for certification? All stereotypical notions would be dispelled, and you would embrace a whole lot of farriers.

Of course it would never happen....

Hey why not, if the only goal is to work to an "arbitrary standard".
NB is very specific and detailed. Still could do handmade shoes, basics in handmades would not change, still have to make a toe bend, forge the heels, turn the branches and punch nail holes. If you know the basics, it should not be a problem.

If NB is not acceptable how about Ducket?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 21:51 #49

  • Jaye Perry
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Hey why not, if the only goal is to work to an "arbitrary standard".
NB is very specific and detailed. Still could do handmade shoes, basics in handmades would not change, still have to make a toe bend, forge the heels, turn the branches and punch nail holes. If you know the basics, it should not be a problem.

If NB is not acceptable how about Ducket?

Be Quiet Phil!:rolleyes:
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 21:51 #50

Jaye Perry wrote:
Be Quiet Phil!:rolleyes:

LOL, took you long enough. :rolleyes::D
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 22:06 #51

reillyshoe wrote:
If the certification process is about working to an "arbitrary standard", switch away from the perimeter fit for a few years. Imagine what would happen if the AFA required a NB trim/shoe for certification? All stereotypical notions would be dispelled, and you would embrace a whole lot of farriers.

Of course it would never happen....

The certification process is not about an "arbitrary standard," although some have chosen, unfortunately, to describe it as such. Instead, it is about shoeing to a particular standard. As stated in the AFA's official publication on this matter, the American Farrier's Association Certification Guide:

The following guidelines, updated and revised by the AFA's Certification Committee, provide an excellent gauge for evaluating farriery. Nevertheless, acceptance of these guidelines as a standard method to shoe a horse is not our goal. Instead these guidelines provide criteria to enable standardized evaluation of skill levels by Certification Examiners and Testers. These guidelines are not the only standard to which horses are shod, but they represent solid, basic, and traditional practice and are suitable to a selective evaluation process.

If the AFA were to change the guidelines from a perimeter fit to an NB fit merely to show a willingness to break away from a perceived stereotype... that would be arbitrary. While we're at it, we should ask the ETS to set up all the SAT math problems so that they deal with baseball. My kid will have a better shot at a better scholarship that way....
~~Danvers

Danvers Child, CJF

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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 22:12 #52

  • reillyshoe
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If I changed the "arbitrary standard" wording to "standardized evaluation", the point is still the same. Changing the "standardized evaluation" criteria would change the perception of the AFA. Understand the same qualifiers would apply, as the AFA could still maintain that "acceptance of these guidelines as a standard method to shoe a horse is not our goal".
P
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 22:44 #53

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Phil Armitage in gray

Hey Tom, don't get me wrong I am not asking to **** down the test. Make it more complicated, make it as complicated as it can get. The current test and standard is better than nothing, however better than nothing does not mean a high standard.

The AFA's CF and CJF tests are the only objective quantification of farrier knowledge and skills available here in the States. If you know the material and have the motor skills, you can pass. If not, you can't. There ain't a helluva lot of middle ground.

Yes I failed the written and the practical, it is a journey. This is a difficult trade a lot to learn, skills and knowledge. Unfortunately the AFA does not provide a good enough education compared to what others outside of the AFA can teach.

The AFA sets the standards, it's up to you to get an education. There are books, study guides, clinics, seminars, hammer-ins, wet labs, lectures, etc., available at the local, state, regional, and national level - but you'll have to educate yourself, the knowledge and motor skills necessary to pass the test ain't going to chase you down.

We can start with debating the standard for the practical, it flys in the face of what most consider properly shod.

Who gives a damn about what "most folks" consider to be "properly shod"? The AFA's arbitrary testing standard is designed to be readily, objectively, quantifiable - to be as fair and disassociated from opinion as possible - it's a measure of one's ability to meet a standard, not one's ability to determine a standard.

Why teach and have a farrier prepare for this standard when this is not what most good farriers will do in everyday work on competitive horses?

Assuming normal presentation, a competent farrier can set up either end of a horse to any predetermined standard. Personally, I've shod quite a few horses full to the toe on one or both ends, every day, for lots of days - and some of them were fairly competitive.

The basics are good to have, shoe shaping and fitting, handmades, good nailing. But, no focus on balance, breakover, center of articulation, trimming the heels all things that need to be taken into consideration for bio mechanics. I'm sorry but saying to gain proper H/P axis remove more toe, leave heel, take more heel off is a joke.

The AFA's practical is not about the testee's opinion relative to "proper" trim and shoe placement, it's about the testee's ability to meet the standardized criteria of the test.

I do not see why each horse on test day cannot be properly trimmed, balanced and shod with what the horse needs and the examiner know the difference.

Without published, rigid, standards, the tests would become totally subjective and just a matter of opinion. The AFA's tests are designed to be as objective as possible, and in order to maintain the utmost objectivity, neither the tester nor the testee define the standards for the AFA's tests, those standards are clearly delineated beforehand.

To be honest I have a hard time justifying preparing for a practical that fits the shoe to a distorted toe, it just does not make sense. Why should I improperly shoe a horse to prep for the AFA practical?


If you attempted to fit a shoe to a distorted toe, the examiner would fail you.

You call it whineing I call it feedback. Why can't you accept feedback. Not asking anyone to agree with me, just telling it like I see it.

Naa, it's just whining. Your arguments are specious and reek of sour grapes: the fact of the matter is that anyone who can shoe a horse can shoe to a standard.

I am all for education, many sources for good education out there.


LMAO! Just the other day, you were denigrating the AFA's written tests as being nothing but "memory work." :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 23:09 #54

  • Rick Burten
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I'm on the road and just got the use of a computer, so I'm late to this disucssion.

Lets see if I can clear up why I chose to resign as Treasurer. As I stated in my resignation letter to the board, I felt that after just two weeks, the EC was even more dysfunctional than the last one and that there existed, within the EC, a lack of respect, lack of trust, lack of confidence, lack of communication, lack of cooperation, a clear vindictive agenda against, in particular, the Chairman of the IT committee, micro-management of and interference by some, in the operation of the AFA, and that this was causing the AFA increased financial liability and asset damage. Since I was also accused of potential fraudulent actions, corporate malfeasance, and the like, I felt it necessary to do two things. First, retain legal counsel and second, on said counsel's advise, resign as Treasurer. The accusations against me were and are baseless/groundless, and all I wanted was a chance to discuss them face to face with the BoD at the scheduled meeting in May.

Mr. Elsbree and Mr. Fanguy felt the situation to be so serious that they wanted a special telephone conference of the board to discuss it. I objected as there was nothing about the situation that was going to affect the operation of the AFA. In fact, the situation was already fully dealt with. Further, the interference, by Mr. Elsbree in committee business ended up costing the AFa several thousand dollars.

Lest anyone think that there was no agenda , let me say that I was told that my "problem" would most likely go away if I could but persuade the Chairman of the IT committee to resign. And that was because Mr. Elsbree discovered, to his shock, anger and chagrin, that he, as President, did not have the authority or ability to fire any committee chaiman. It was just unfortunate that he found this out after creating quite a scene in the bar in the host hotel in Lexington, Ky.

That's the bare bones of it. There is a lot of 'filler' that can flesh this out, but it won't change a thing. There is correspondence that further tells the tale and the BoD is in possession of it. What they will do, if anything, remains to be seen.

And, on a different subject, as an FYI, when last I checked, AFA regular member numbers stood at appx 2428. Down significantly from previous years.

It has also been said that there were 700+ attendees at this year's convention. Question is, how many of that number paid the full registration fee? That answer is quite significant as the revenues from convention are a necessary and important part of the financial stability and ability to operate, of the AFA.

One last thing. Much will be made in the coming days and months, I believe, of the IT committee going over budget. However, when all the information sees the light of day, you will see that the IT committee was within its budget based on the expenses it knew about, and working overtime to protect and improve the IT assets of the AFA. As importantly, there are other committees that have exceeded their budgets yet have not been held either accountable or under such a magnifying glass as the IT committee has been. As a member(at the time) of the IT committee, I saw some very dedicated people expend an inordinate amount of time and effort to stabilize and secure the technology assets, including the website, of the AFA. And for what? To be pilloried, insulted, and accused of nefarious doings. As a result, three of the most IT qualified guys in the AFA(myself excepted), guys with a combined 70 years +/- of successful careers in IT, resigned from the committee.

As I said to the BoD in my letter of resignation, "I wish I could say that it has been a pleasure to serve as Treasurer of the AFA, but I cannot.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 23:17 #55

  • JimBondra
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What's up with the AFA is the thread. It should be what's wrong with the AFA.
In my opinion what's wrong with the AFA is those people who tear it down to anyone that listens, spout how they can fix everything that's wrong with it. And when given the chance to join the team and implement the changes they have railed on so long about, They quit.
I have no time for quitters. They should be placed on the ignore list.
Jim Bondra CJF
AFA# 1580
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 23:28 #56

  • Rick Burten
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Well Jim, as that is most likely aimed at me, I'll respond. I've never said I could fix anything, let alone everything, and I did join the team. Unfortunately, the team wasn't much of a team, nor was it/is it going to be. And when I am forced to seek out legal cousel, you can be damn sure I am going to follow the advise I am given. I asked for only one thing. And that was to speak to the board face to face. I was going to be denied that opportunity, and not even by a vote of the full EC. On the night the question was discussed and to be voted on, there were only three members of the EC present. Wanna guess who those individuals are and how that vote was going to come down?

In the end, the juice just wasn't going to be worth the squeeze.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 23:31 #57

  • ray steele
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JimBondra wrote:
What's up with the AFA is the thread. It should be what's wrong with the AFA.
In my opinion what's wrong with the AFA is those people who tear it down to anyone that listens, spout how they can fix everything that's wrong with it. And when given the chance to join the team and implement the changes they have railed on so long about, They quit.
I have no time for quitters. They should be placed on the ignore list.
Jim Bondra CJF
AFA# 1580

Jim,

could you please expond as to how /if you would "fix" the afa. Perhaps you don't feel that anything ig is askew. I have not "quit" recently but, some time ago and have not seen any reason to re join, I cannot speak as to how many others may feel this way but I watch the #s of membership and wonder.

Just askingand wondering how many others are/if ,as it has been said "riding for the brand".

Regards

Ray Steele
(just a farrier/horseshoer/ironhanger)
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 31 Mar 2008 00:29 #58

  • JimBondra
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Rick we posted about the same time. I had not yet read your comments.
But, if you quit then yes am talking about you. I have no idea what happened to any of you and I'm sure that you will all post your side of the story ad nauseum.
I have found Andrew Elsbree and Dick Fanguy to be competent and reasonable individuals. They are more than capable of running the AFA without entering into personal agenda.
Ray,
I do "ride for the brand" as you say. Its my choice made after years of membership. I know what the AFA has done for me. Tell me, what did it do to, or for, you?
Jim Bondra CJF
AFA # 1580
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 31 Mar 2008 00:46 #59

  • Rick Burten
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JimBondra wrote:
I have no idea what happened to any of you
Then perhaps you should not rush to judgement
and I'm sure that you will all post your side of the story ad nauseum.
Nope. I've said all I feel needs said. If anyone wants more information, they can contact me privately.
I have found Andrew Elsbree and Dick Fanguy to be competent and reasonable individuals. They are more than capable of running the AFA without entering into personal agenda.
Its my understanding that it is the job of the BOD to run the AFA. Perhaps that's where the confusion lies?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 31 Mar 2008 00:58 #60

  • ray steele
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Ray,
I do "ride for the brand" as you say. Its my choice made after years of membership. I know what the AFA has done for me. Tell me, what did it do to, or for, you?
Jim Bondra CJF
AFA # 1580[/QUOTE]

Jim,

The AFA early on simply put, got farriers,horseshoers,ironhangers, talking to each other, which in my opinion was a tremendous step.

Then sometime seems to have passed when the AFA seems to have become an exclusionary group, extolling a set of credentials as the "best" thus setting up the old divide again. In that divide is membership or not, cf or not,cjf or not, yet we are all farriers/horseshoers/ironhangers.

While some may take offense to the nomenclature,and no offense is intended ,we all bend over and attach shoes to the equine hoof or trim it,some better than others, maybe!

While the AFA originally sought to unite members of our trade,to me now it wishes to exclude membership because "it" the AFA has determined the "correct" way to handle the equine hoof or the correct way (AFA testing)to determine weather a practicioner can handle the equine hoof.

If you look around the world a little, or look a little into what has been written historically about the correct way to shoe a horse ,one will see a huge variation in what is "proper", yet I would contend that much of it is correct given the geography, conditions and use of the equine.

Would it pass the AFA standard?

Regards

Ray Steele
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