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TOPIC: Whats up with the AFA?

RE:Whats up with the AFA? 29 Mar 2008 21:24 #16

  • Derin Foor
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Horseshoes.com would be the ideal place, in addition to the AFA website, for someone from the AFA to explain their position(s) as to what has transpired. I think as members we have the right to know. Since rumors travel at lightning speed it would seem prudent to get the facts out ahead of time.

If what is posted is 'fact' then I don't see this as airing dirty laundry........ if someone has a bone to pick with Andrew, Dick, etc, then that's a different story. Transparency is what we were promised. Let's see it.

Derin
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 29 Mar 2008 21:36 #17

  • anvilsteve
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Since my name was brought up on this thread, I will try to inform those that will listen what's up. First I'll say that any announcements that will be made about the current resignations will come in full from the EC in the proper time frame. As Bruce says be patient, thank you Bruce for the above.

As A BOD member I found myself in a very unique position to deal with the IT Committee and the EC. I was asked, as Ron K. has stated above, to be available for the IT Com. should Ron resign. From there I was able to listen to both sides of the current issue in regards to the problems that were ocurring. From what I can tell, there has not only been a problem of poor comunication, but a lack of understanding, between the parties involved. I don't say this to accuse anyone of wrong doing, but it has become obvious to me, after many hours on the telephone and reading many emails, that this is a complicated issue as well as a culture clash.

What it boils down to is that the former IT Com. was asked to do a job. Understand that they are volunteers. They were not given enough direction because the EC did not fully understand the extent of the job. Excess expenses were generated to do the job, which were not in the budget. When the EC questioned these expenses, friction developed, because there were no motions, minutes, work orders, to support these expenses, as is necessary to the way the AFA does business.

On the other hand, the IT Com. people put in a lot of work trying to accomplish their task and became defensive when questioned by the EC. In hind sight, they should have kept the EC better informed about whatever difficulties they encountered and extra expenses. After reaching the level of frustration that Ron had enough of, he handed over the pass words to me and resigned. I sent them to the office, so that they could control the web site from there, which will be way things will be done in the future.

This is what I got out of all this. There might be some things that I missed out on or that have more detail, so don't any one go dissecting what I have written looking for hidden meanings trying to twist my words. I don't put up with that B.S.

The old data base and web site system are very complicated and obsolete. Right now we do not have the money to replace everything the way it needs to be. The new BOD will address this issue at the May meeting. We will find a way to resolve the issue and have a updated system that serves the membership. That being said, do not make a mountain out of a mole hill. If you choose to ignore all the programs that are running well and all the good that the AFA does for the members, over some growing pains, and not support the organization , then we won't have enouigh members to warrant spending the money to upgrade our system. Catch 22!

I have said enough for now. If I have left anything out, please excuse me, I am battling a cold and fever. If you have any questions, you know how to reach me.

Sincerely,

Steve Kraus, CJF
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 29 Mar 2008 22:14 #18

  • Cyber Farrier
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I could have (would have) solved the web site issue many moons ago, but that is water under the bridge, and I'll say no more.

Baron
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 01:12 #19

  • Gary_Miller
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anvilsteve wrote:
When the EC questioned these expenses, friction developed, because there were no motions, minutes, work orders, to support these expenses, as is necessary to the way the AFA does business.
Where was the BOD in all this? Was the committe functioning within their given budget as passed by the BOD last year? There had to be something reciepts, ect. to support the exspenditures before anyone could be reimursed or paid for the job?

anvilsteve wrote:
On the other hand, the IT Com. people put in a lot of work trying to accomplish their task and became defensive when questioned by the EC. In hind sight, they should have kept the EC better informed about whatever difficulties they encountered and extra expenses.
Where was the BOD in all this? Is it not the BOD that runs the AFA? What did the finace committee have to say about the extra expenses?

anvilsteve wrote:
After reaching the level of frustration that Ron had enough of, he handed over the pass words to me and resigned. I sent them to the office, so that they could control the web site from there, which will be way things will be done in the future.
Who will be managing this passwords? Someone in the office? The EC? The BOD? Who?

anvilsteve wrote:
This is what I got out of all this. There might be some things that I missed out on or that have more detail, so don't any one go dissecting what I have written looking for hidden meanings trying to twist my words. I don't put up with that B.S.
OK I don't think I did that.

anvilsteve wrote:
The old data base and web site system are very complicated and obsolete. Right now we do not have the money to replace everything the way it needs to be. The new BOD will address this issue at the May meeting. We will find a way to resolve the issue and have a updated system that serves the membership. That being said, do not make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Is it just a mole hill when the entier IT committee resigns as well as the newly elected treasure/finace committe chairman. Within weeks of the new EC taking office. Seems to me it time for the newly appointed BOD to stepup to the plate and do what they were elected to do. Sounds like a emergency meeting of the BOD maybe in order.

anvilsteve wrote:
If you choose to ignore all the programs that are running well
What programs would that be? Certification is the only one I can think of.

anvilsteve wrote:
and all the good that the AFA does for the members,
And what would that be?

anvilsteve wrote:
over some growing pains, and not support the organization,
I have heard this the last three years. Support the organization this is just growing pains they are going through. Well the growing pains are getting intense. I'm still waiting for the results.

anvilsteve wrote:
then we won't have enouigh members to warrant spending the money to upgrade our system. Catch 22!
How correct you are. The members will soon start to vote with their feet. One can only be expected to fork out good money for so long to an organization where the leadership can't stop bickering among themselves and the very people who are trying to keep the organization going. Sooner or latter people are going to leave, and from my understanding its already happening.

anvilsteve wrote:
I am battling a cold and fever.
Mm too. I hope you get felling better soon.

anvilsteve wrote:
If you have any questions, you know how to reach me.
Awaiting you response as well as anyone else who would care to give thier views. Exspecally members of the EC and the BOD.


Why does this stuff always comeout when its time for me to renew my membership?
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 13:31 #20

Being the subject of much of what Steve has said I feel I must respond to a couple of the things;

anvilsteve wrote:
What it boils down to is that the former IT Com. was asked to do a job. Understand that they are volunteers. They were not given enough direction because the EC did not fully understand the extent of the job. Excess expenses were generated to do the job, which were not in the budget. When the EC questioned these expenses, friction developed, because there were no motions, minutes, work orders, to support these expenses, as is necessary to the way the AFA does business.
A few important points:

1. The Bylaws and Policies of the AFA state rather clearly that the Committees report to and work at the direction of the BoD, not the EC, and no questions about committee expenses were submitted to the committee by any member of the BoD at the Annual Meeting;
2. There are no BoD policies in place specifying that committees must obtain prior clearance to carry out a role directed by the BOD, nor is there any policy or procedure on the books directing the way committees are to document or authorize their expenses;
3. The IT Committee was the only committee being subjected to demands by the EC for documentation beyond the invoices being submitted;
4. The IT Committee did not authorize all of the expenses that it was being charged with, rather the office regularly engaged IT Consulting resources without following IT committee procedures that would have helped contain IT Committee costs and the IT Committee received little or no help from the EC in trying to curb this behavior;
5. The invoice that put the IT Committee over budget was submitted by a vendor 4 months after the work was done and the work was authorized by the office, not the IT Committee;
6. The IT Committee is not the only committee to exceed its budget. For example, as of January 31st the American Farriers Team was over budget by something over $10,000 yet they were not being subjected to the same level of scrutiny.

anvilsteve wrote:
On the other hand, the IT Com. people put in a lot of work trying to accomplish their task and became defensive when questioned by the EC. In hind sight, they should have kept the EC better informed about whatever difficulties they encountered and extra expenses.
It is unfortunate that our liaison Mr. Fanguy did not keep the EC informed. I personally spent hours and hours on the phone with Mr. Fanguy explaining everything that we were working on. I assumed that Mr. Fanguy understood everything that I was saying because he told me he did and I expected that as the EC member responsible for communications between the IT Committee and the EC that he would do exactly that.

anvilsteve wrote:
After reaching the level of frustration that Ron had enough of, he handed over the pass words to me and resigned.
Actually, I resigned on advice of my attorneys. Attorneys I was forced to engage once the EC chose to use the threat of litigation if I did not turn the passwords over to the AFA’s lawyer.

anvilsteve wrote:
The old data base and web site system are very complicated and obsolete. Right now we do not have the money to replace everything the way it needs to be. The new BOD will address this issue at the May meeting. We will find a way to resolve the issue and have a updated system that serves the membership.
There is noting wrong with the existing website that can not be fixed with a little elbow grease and a few new graphics. The site has been allowed to get out of control and has not been properly maintained for a very long time. The money spent to bring it up to date from a technology standpoint will only have been well spent if someone actually uses the updated technology to clean up what is there.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 15:26 #21

  • Gary_Miller
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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
6. The IT Committee is not the only committee to exceed its budget. For example, as of January 31st the American Farriers Team was over budget by something over $10,000 yet they were not being subjected to the same level of scrutiny.
Ron, correct me if I'm wrong as I have been out of the loop since I resigned from the Finance committee in January.

There was a proposal to open a bank account separate from the general fund for the AFT and issue a debit card to be used by the team. That way the team was responsible for their own funds. I also understood that the AFA would support the team each year in the amount of $10K (I maybe wrong on the amount).

Did this happen, or is the team still operating on a credit card out of the general fund with no set limitations.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 15:28 #22

Cyber Farrier wrote:
I could have (would have) solved the web site issue many moons ago, but that is water under the bridge, and I'll say no more.

Baron

Blows my mind that the AFA would pass up a great opportunity like this? Obviously Baron knows what he is doing, this site is reliable and active.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 15:53 #23

Gary_Miller wrote:
Ron, correct me if I'm wrong as I have been out of the loop since I resigned from the Finance committee in January.
Gary, the proposal you are refering to was addopted by the BoD in November of last year. Mr. Bloombach never actually implemented that item in the addopted budget resolution and as far as I know Mr. Bloom still has an AFA credit card that is paid for out of the general fund. At least this is how things were when I left Lexington after the last board meeting. I have since also resigned from the Finance Committee.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 18:37 #24

  • vthorseshoe
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I have never been a person to hang onto the negative.
I believe in picking up when a mistake has happened, learn all I can from said mistake, and move on with a positive attitude.

This being said;
Please leave the jokes and the unnecasary retorick for other posts and keep this on a serious note.

How about,

Phil, Mikel, Eric, Jason, Steve, Ron, Gary, Derin

and ANYONE ELSE who has been emotionally involved in these discussions
tell us how you personally would correct, rectify, improve, or run the AFA from its present state of affairs ?

Lets change this from a negative post to something of value and content that someone could use perhaps...
Here is your chance !!! Folks.
I have put you all into the driver seat.
Now it is time for some of you who have been strong on disagreeing with the AFA to say something constructve, and show us all just what YOU WOULD DO in the place of these other folks .......

Andrew Elsbree is at the helm and Dick Fanguy is his immediate, and the others follow down the line.

Derin

If you were in Andrew's position how would you do his job ???
What would be your vision for the future of the AFA ?? and how would you lead us to this vision ?

Phil,

If you were in Dick Fanguys seat what would you do to get folks happy and how would you correct the many problems you make light of at times ??
What programs do you feel are important and which one's aren't ?
How would you get folks to work together smoothly ?
You have been the seat of controversy for a few years on this board.
You went to other places and met with many of the folks who taunted you on this board and came away with many of them seeing your other side
A person who wants to learn, a person who is friendly, a person who is true to himself and faithful to his friends.
HOW WOULD YOU use these lessons learned to bring a positive change to the AFA ?



Gary,

How would you handle this partiular problem of folks resigning over what appears to be a lack of communication and differences of opinions over this website perdicament.

Eric,

How would you convince folks to join the AFA. What would you consider important about the AFA enough to get folks interested ??
What would you do about the due's ? increase, stay where they are, decrease ? and why ??
How would you cope with the difference of opinions, the different personalities, How would you bring folks together to work on committee's, projects, etc ? and keep them from fighting and squabbling ??

Steve,

What are your plans to reorganize this committee and move it forward ?
What resources can you use to get things back on track ?
How will you reconnect folks again via communication and wanting to help you, and seeing all funds offered, spent, or needed are accounted and approved so there is no future problem in this area ?
What other idea's do you have ?

Ron,

What are some POSITIVE things you can say about the AFA ?
You obviously wanted to help in the begining so you must have felt there was a need and you could help. To do this you must have thought good things about the AFA at some point ..

Can you share some positive thoughts, folks, concepts in place, etc...?
Can you do this without letting your previous situation influence your thoughts ??

Mikel,

What would you change as to the structure of the AFA ?
Would you cut back on many of the programs and focus on certification as was the origional concept ?
Would you move forward onto new idea's and programs ?
Would you say to everyone who wants to quit, Goodbye !! and focus on downsizing the AFA from its present stature ?
Has the AFA gotten so big it can't function properly anymore.
Does the AFA need to go the way of the WCB and leave the baggage behind ?

What are your thoughts ??? In reality,"Is the AFA worth saving ????" Is it of value ?
For all the negativity is the AFA worth the effort of the many volunteers it takes to keep it going ??

Was all the efforts,time,work,visions, etc. of the members and leaders of the past all for naught ?
Has the hay day for the AFA come to its end ? Is it on a down hill path ?

I for one believe not !! I believe it is worth saving and working for. I also believe in many of the folks who's efforts and labor have gone into making it what it is today.
From the visionaries, Walt Taylor and the others in the initial group who had the tenacty, vision, drive, and strength tgo work together to buld it into what it is today.
The question is What are we going to do to keep the AFA something for folks to look up to. To keep the level of respect it has worked so hard to attain..

My 2 cents;

I and others would be very interested in your views and thoughts on the above questions.
"you may not like what I say" !
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I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 18:58 #25

Bruce, I thought I gave my opinion in a positive manner. The AFA needs to get with the future. The future is the internet, Web sites and discussion forums. For some reason the AFA's area on their site to communicate is dead, very little participation. This forum is a good example of good communications. Good, bad, negative or whatever take what you can when your trying to get your finger on the pulse.


One thing that needs to change is old timers replying to feedback as sour gripes. I know the only way some of these old timers will listen is if you pass AFA testing.

Here is some food for thought, don't know if it is true or not. Maybe the lack of membership and certification is because many farriers do not agree with the standard test and education that the AFA has to offer. How about questions like this as a poll to AFA and non AFA farriers?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 19:03 #26

  • anvilsteve
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Thank you Ron for filling in your details.

Now for Gary-
The new BOD was not seated while this was happening, the old BOD was clueless.
Yes the BOD runs the AFA, but the EC takes care of daily business. The new BOD is infinately more involved.
The Passwords will be managed and guarded by the Office Manager and all SS#'s will be removed.
Yes, you did what I asked you not to do, but I hope this go round answers your questions.
The IT com. resigned as has been explained above by Ron. Mr. Burten will give his reasons for resignation in his time frame.
I take offense when you say, "the newly appointed BOD to step up to the plate," etc. What do you think we are doing, having a tea party? Would you like to step up to the plate and take part in this? We are donating lots of our time every day, taking care of these issues as well as the meat and potatoes of the AFA, and in our spare time, we shoe horses!! When I am umpiring a polo match and a player complains about a call, I usually ask them if they would rather switch places, then I could play and they could blow the whistle. They always decline that idea.
The BY laws allow for emergencg meetings, it still takes 30 day notice, we will meet at the end of May, and resolve many issues, while you are enjoying Memorial Day weekend.
As far as other AFA programs running well, it would take too long here to explain, maybe I'll email you something later.
I guess you don't either receive your AFA mail or read it to understand what the regular benefits are, the less tangable are ,being connected to a great network of your peers, programs that YOU CAN tap into for info. & edu.
A national assoc. that is looking out for you when, legislators come up with **** laws, that may hurt you. I could go on, maybe you are getting the point.

There was once a great President the said something like, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country". Maybe farriers should start thinking this way about the AFA.

Thank you for your concern, today I am feeling better.

Steve Kraus, CFJ
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 19:05 #27

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vthorseshoe wrote:
Eric,

How would you convince folks to join the AFA.

I haven't given it much thought, but it would have to come from the local level. State associations would have to hold afa sponsored events. Plus, most think the afa is a competition association. So, more farriers who don't compete need to start getting involved and figure out a way to get there name out there in order to get attendance up at nonforging clinics.
What would you consider important about the AFA enough to get folks interested ??

No idea. Getting a magazine with membership works pretty well!
What would you do about the due's ? increase, stay where they are, decrease ? and why ??

150.00 is plenty for dues!
How would you cope with the difference of opinions, the different personalities, How would you bring folks together to work on committee's, projects, etc ? and keep them from fighting and squabbling ??

For one, farriers don't like to be told what to do! So, some guy from some business field isn't gonna just move on in and take charge. Ron can have to best ideas in the world, if he doesn't learn to slow down and play ball he'll never be accepted.

Get a bunch of farriers together and there's gonna be fighting and squabbling. In order to get things working, you have to be able to throw your own ideas out the window on occasion. At the end of the day its not about "me" or "I" its about the afa.
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 19:11 #28

  • anvilsteve
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Bruce-
Nice job on your last post.
Steve Kraus
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 19:13 #29

  • George Geist
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anvilsteve wrote:
A national assoc. that is looking out for you when, legislators come up with **** laws, that may hurt you. I could go on, maybe you are getting the point.
Sorry Steve,
I've been behaving myself and staying out of this but that statement I can't ignore.
What have you guys done legislatively? In what state(s)? What issues of a political nature are of concern to the AFA? Who are your lobbyists? How much membership money is spent on lobbying? Do you have any successes in that area that you can point us to?
Thank you for your concern, today I am feeling better.

Steve Kraus, CFJ
Glad to hear that
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Whats up with the AFA? 30 Mar 2008 19:19 #30

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I am already running late,but this is a good start folks.
Thankyou Phil and Eric for taking the time to post responces.
If you have other idea's or thoughts post some more. Some times we need time to digest questions and then come up with a well thought ot answer.

One thing I want to re-state that Steve just posted.
Meetings are set on the calender. There is a reason for that. It is so everyone can adjust their busy schedules so they can all meet to discuss and make decisions.

So no one can honestly expect immediate results when a situation arises.
Folks are and will do their jobs, but we all have to be patient and wait for the scheduled meetings to take place before anythingconstrctiveand organized can take place.

Drafts to trim.
bye folks stay safe and have a good weekend
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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