Fay - update

[red_hush21]

Hello all,

For the ones that feel my posts are bothering you, please move on to the next thread. If you feel you are compelled to PM me with motherly advice, keep it to yourself. If you wish to criticize my actions, unless you are a farrier and your opinions are based on evidence, please don't bother.

I would like to THANK everyone who has helped me. * Virtual Hugs *
I'll post pictures as soon as i find my USB cable.

This farrier was reffered to me by richard Simard who is a famous trainer/driver in the horse racing circle in NA. He told me about this great horse he had who suffered a P3 fracture and this farrier fixed him up really well, he raced 2 days after and won 25K in 57'.

Pulled the shoes, farrier's face turned white and he said '' she's perforated ''

Indeed, we see the tip of P3 imprint in the sole.
It's not out yet but it would be if her heels were left as is and her foot to '' heal naturally ''

No need for hoof testers, he moved the sole with his bare hands.

59 deg. at both heels. I forgot the toes but it's very steep.

So he rebalanced her foot a little, took about 2 deg. off the heels on each foot. He said he can't take more out otherwise she would bleed, then she would have no where to put her weight on. I asked about hoof rebuilding, he said he could do it if i wanted to but he said i would pay for nothing.
He wants me to put iodine everyday. That is not so good with a closed pad with impression material and he said iodine & putty dont match well.

Told me she needs 4' of hoof for her size, said most of our local farriers trim VERY short and upright. She needs more toes, less heel, more sole.

So he put a half round size 4, a green mushy pad that is open at the middle and has a built in frog support, ( called impact reducer ? ) so i can treat with iodine and get harder soles. He set the shoe over the toe and fuller on the sides, 3 small nails on each sides. I'm not sure what they were.

He said the key is a regular trim of the heels. He will come back every 2 weeks until we have a better balance and more foot.
She has a good hoofwall and lots of nailing space. With that regiment, i should get my hrose back in 8weeks.

She stood much better with that, no more foot hopping and cantered around a bit in the arena. She is still sore, that will take time for sure but P3 being more protected, that will help !

He said to ride her midly as well.

I'll post pictures later.

[Horsemaid]

I am so glad you got an expert farrier out there to take care of your horse. I am truly sorry it's worse than what you expected, but at least now you are on the right path to getting your horse sound. I have spent many sleepless nights worrying about my horse in the past, I know this has been tough for you.
This is a great illustration of how important it is for the horse owner to be knowledgeable about hoof care, to know when a farrier is doing a good job or not, and when to call in a vet. And, to know what advice to take and what to disregard (like leaving your horse lame so it can "naturally" get worse)
Hang in there, I'm sure everyone will want to see photos.

[red_hush21]

Originally Posted by Horsemaid

And, to know what advice to take and what to disregard (like leaving your horse lame so it can "naturally" get worse)

Thank you !

[THamilton]

I am concerned here with what is happening with your horse. First I would get a Vet involved and get an MRI or a Radiograph at the least. Preferrable a digital one - which has the value of shading and rotating the views.

Aside from that, if P3 is about to come throught he foot, changing angles every two weeks would be the least of my concerns- at this point. Not to say that I would not trim what I could to balance her and get to solid horn material.

I would place more value on stabilizing P3 and protecting the sole with something more ridgid. Something that will not place ANY pressure or that has the chance of placing ANY pressure on the sole. An example of this is a 3/16" thick Castle Plastics pad riveted to the shoe. If there is not enough clearance and contact with the sole should occur, I would use a foot rebuilding product to give myself the needed clearance. With a pour in pad or any other non-ridgid pad there is the chance that pressure can be displaced upwards into the sole.

I could be mistaken and not understanding what your post is saying, but after reading it again, I now think that what your farrier might be seeing is sole bruising the shape of the coffin bone ( a cresent shape redness in the sole about 1" in front of the tip fo the live frog.) If this is the case, thent he prognosis is better.

I still would protect the sole.

Pictures with the initial post would be a bigger benefit for the future .

Good Luck,
Tony

"Perforated" means a tear, hole, separation, gap, rip, etc. If the farrier is seeing an "imprint" of P3 on the sole, and it isn't "out yet" but it will be soon, how is this perforated? Just curious so I understand your post better. Did he see bruising on the sole from the bone pressing on the circumflex artery, or did he actually see THE BONE?

Horses with thin soles can get a nice bruise or imprint of P3 on the sole. It doesn't necessarily mean the bone is about to pop out into the outside world, but it means there is pressure causing rupture of vessels and the sole is thin and needing protection and stimulation for growth.

GOOD digital radiographs will show you exactly how much sole depth you have before P3 is in the environment. The only xrays I remember that you posted were too poor to be able to tell anything on. Do you have updated ones? Again, I'm speaking as a horse owner who has "been there, done that" with my dressage horse.

Also I agree you need to have a vet on this case.

I'm glad your mare is doing better, that's the important thing.

[EDeSocio]

Well sounds good.. did he not think a reverse wedge would benefit? I would say that if he didn't think it would benefit then he knows best since the hoof was in his hands and not mine from 2598 miles away...
But, none the less, prognosis is better in 8 weeks sounds like positive prognosis!

[Rick Burten]

Doesn't sound as though she's through the bottom/preforated.

I think he is on the right track with what he is doing and I hope he has a "Plan B" in mind, just in case...

Eric,

I think a reverse wedge at this time would be contra-indicated. Between lowering the heels and then the addition of a reverse wedge, enough mechanical strain can be placed on the DFT, that it could actually pull p3 the rest of the way down and out.

Also, does it not concern you just a bit that a horse with a fractured coffin bone was shod and able to race two days later? (I know this is a bit off topic, but it was brought up by the OP.

Rick - I wanted to bring that up too but was afraid I'd be skinned and roasted for implying it's wrong to patch up a broken coffin bone with a shoe and then race the horse. You know me, and this is what I constantly harp on - people NEVER want to give horses time to recuperate and heal in their feet. If it's a tendon, a muscle, or an eyeball, oh yeah, they've got alllllll the time in the world. But if it's hooves, they want to be back in the ring riding tomorrow, or competing.

[red_hush21]

Originally Posted by Rick Burten

Doesn't sound as though she's through the bottom/preforated.

I think he is on the right track with what he is doing and I hope he has a "Plan B" in mind, just in case...

Eric,

I think a reverse wedge at this time would be contra-indicated. Between lowering the heels and then the addition of a reverse wedge, enough mechanical strain can be placed on the DFT, that it could actually pull p3 the rest of the way down and out.

Also, does it not concern you just a bit that a horse with a fractured coffin bone was shod and able to race two days later? (I know this is a bit off topic, but it was brought up by the OP.

Rick, we were replying the same thing at the same time... cross your fingers and make a wish ! ( i vote for world peace and better schools in the Irak countries ... you ? )

[red_hush21]

[quote=
Also, does it not concern you just a bit that a horse with a fractured coffin bone was shod and able to race two days later? (I know this is a bit off topic, but it was brought up by the OP.[/QUOTE]

For 25K worth and a horse still sound today, not really.

[red_hush21]

I did get my vet to look at her ! You people are funny thinking i did'nt. Rads were taken a month ago.

My english traduction for what he said is probably off... what he said in french is '' elle est défoncée '' That means her foot collapsed in proper terms but it's a slang word too for saying that something is crushed, trashed or destroyed. Yes, we see the imprint of P3 but it's not perforated. I know that.
If it was, she'd be at the hospital.
Wrong choice of words sorry !

Eric, i did explain what i did with your help and he agreed to your theory.
But, putting reverse wedge pads would increase pressure on her toes and he said he if affraid she might stumble, bow a tendon & this would alter her gait and she would need to make an extra effort in picking up that foot over so this could be iffy. He said he'd rather slowly lower her heels meanwhile her toe, wall and sole grows. Made sense to me.

He said BO should not be set as per a NB mindset, i showed the PLR's i have to him, the size 2 was not long enough and he said the more we back up her BO, the more we enhance her short toes. Right now, as per the Xrays, we have a shoved up pastern from high heels and short toes, thin sole and a very small frog. Also have underrun heels and a dished hoofwall. It's not because she is contracted with her DF tendon but from a mechanical * man made * mess. He said if we set BO back on this foot right now, we only encourage the foot to grow more upwards and in heels. Again, made sense to me.

He said once her foot is back on track, in a normal length and sole depth, then we could try a PLR size 3. He also has Eponas, he said that would be a cood option but he said a flexible shoe would not be the best thing in soft fotting, and would not help to stabilize her feet. Again, made sense to me.
Same theory as yours Eric. Yes, you can celebrate, you were right. And i am sure many others were too.

As for the sole being cleared, Tony you are 100% right.
And that is what the pad she has on does. Actually, she had a similar pad on before than the one you suggested but thrush kicked in badly and they had to be cut into a rimpad. This pad is open so i can soak that foot with iodine.
I can see through the front of the pad, the sole is not in contact. only the frog is and under the hoofwall. My farrier used that pad specifically for this and he showed it to me. It's the Impak absorber and it's green, really mushy and thick.

Here are pictures. I guess now only time will tell... !

[Appassionato]

I did get my vet to look at her ! You people are funny thinking i did'nt. Rads were taken a month ago.

I think what everyone means is new rads might be necessary...things may have changed from a month ago.

My english traduction for what he said is probably off... what he said in french is '' elle est défoncée '' That means her foot collapsed in proper terms but it's a slang word too for saying that something is crushed, trashed or destroyed. Yes, we see the imprint of P3 but it's not perforated. I know that.
If it was, she'd be at the hospital.
Wrong choice of words sorry !

I'm sorry, maybe it's paranoia, but did he mean "sinking"? I hope not.

[OldLineStateForge]

Originally Posted by red_hush21

I did get my vet to look at her ! You people are funny thinking i did'nt. Rads were taken a month ago.

My english traduction for what he said is probably off... what he said in french is '' elle est défoncée '' That means her foot collapsed in proper terms but it's a slang word too for saying that something is crushed, trashed or destroyed. Yes, we see the imprint of P3 but it's not perforated. I know that.
If it was, she'd be at the hospital.
Wrong choice of words sorry !

Eric, i did explain what i did with your help and he agreed to your theory.
But, putting reverse wedge pads would increase pressure on her toes and he said he if affraid she might stumble, bow a tendon & this would alter her gait and she would need to make an extra effort in picking up that foot over so this could be iffy. He said he'd rather slowly lower her heels meanwhile her toe, wall and sole grows. Made sense to me.

He said BO should not be set as per a NB mindset, i showed the PLR's i have to him, the size 2 was not long enough and he said the more we back up her BO, the more we enhance her short toes. Right now, as per the Xrays, we have a shoved up pastern from high heels and short toes, thin sole and a very small frog. Also have underrun heels and a dished hoofwall. It's not because she is contracted with her DF tendon but from a mechanical * man made * mess. He said if we set BO back on this foot right now, we only encourage the foot to grow more upwards and in heels. Again, made sense to me.

He said once her foot is back on track, in a normal length and sole depth, then we could try a PLR size 3. He also has Eponas, he said that would be a cood option but he said a flexible shoe would not be the best thing in soft fotting, and would not help to stabilize her feet. Again, made sense to me.
Same theory as yours Eric. Yes, you can celebrate, you were right. And i am sure many others were too.

As for the sole being cleared, Tony you are 100% right.
And that is what the pad she has on does. Actually, she had a similar pad on before than the one you suggested but thrush kicked in badly and they had to be cut into a rimpad. This pad is open so i can soak that foot with iodine.
I can see through the front of the pad, the sole is not in contact. only the frog is and under the hoofwall. My farrier used that pad specifically for this and he showed it to me. It's the Impak absorber and it's green, really mushy and thick.

Here are pictures. I guess now only time will tell... !

Glad to hear things are coming around.Seems this is pretty much the same protocal I originally suggested in the thread " hoof reconstruction materials" except the need to support the caudal portion is evident with the P3 issues ( it outwighs the exostosis) Good consistent work will take you a long way now. FYI if your farrier thinks she has had a recent laminitic event solar abscessing will show up around 45 - 50 days.