first attempt last resort

[daveyireland]

laminitic mare severe founder no x rays foot was bout 4 1/2' wide clubby foot wasnt alwys club foot aparently presume thats from years of ddft pull, first saw her four weeks ago wasnt prepared so just reset egg bars (and caudal sole pack) that had been on her from previous farrier who i know very well hes top class but had enough of owners unhelpful attitude passed it on to me ,other foot sore and she wasnt doped so was awkward messy job owner close to last resort of puttin her down thought id try banana have seen a few put on in a stud i worked on abroad and have read most of rons posts that ive been able to find so here was my attempt had no foot to nail to so built sides up with equithane.
I saw dr o grady at a recent clinic here looked at a mare ten times better than this one and said she was past helping so i dont hold much hope but a chance to experiment a bit and hopefully make her a bit more comfortable


no before pics didnt think of photos til aftr

[daveyireland]

heres one i did a month ago is apparently soundest shes been in three years now first day saw her was rotten with abcess's in front of apex of tip of frog presume under tip of p3 and burstin out at top of crack, again no xrays its like owners are allergic to em here huge movement in crack, improvised, cut full wedge pad in half and coverd rear of foot with i.m and back half of wedge pad (taped on) and coverd dorsal wall and back to apex with poultice and plate and screws across crack, owner re poulticed for 8 days keeping i.m and pad on, put heart bar on and plate and screws again then and then put equilox with fiber glass patch on a week or so later. these are two of the first laminitic cases ive done gotta start somewhere




(ran out of equilox reason for gap at toe)

[Red Amor]

poor olbegger
Good on you Dave

[Fourhotshoes]

Good work Davey...Been on few of those myself lately...went to new place the other day said they need one reset that had whiteline and the vet had resected some foot...they pulled the bandages off and it looked like this...

[calshoer]

Good for you Davey to give it a try. Nice work on a difficult foot!

[Jim Sweeney]

Originally Posted by Fourhotshoes

Good work...Been on few of those myself lately...went to new place the other day said they need one reset that had whiteline and the vet had resected some foot...they pulled the bandages off and it looked like this...

Did the vet start the resection at the hairline? I would like to see a lat view of that foot. I have only ever seen one hoof come off completely and go sailing across the OR when the horse came off the table. That is about what it looked like just before it sloughed off.

[Fourhotshoes]

This is the only other pic I have. Took the pictures with my phone and Unfotunately, I didn't use the "save" option for most of them gotta love new stuff...I didn't get too much history I just know he has been cronic for a while and nobody wanted to work on him anymore vets, owners, farriers, etc...but the insurance company wanted to do all they could...so there you go and there I was...when I took the pic the shoes had been on for 16 or so weeks and the resection was 10 weeks old...vet thought P3 had an infection and was degenerating rather quickly...there was very little happening as far as "new" growth at the coronary band It was damn sure ugly but all things concidered the caudal aspect of the foot looked really good...even thought it felt like I could have pulled the whole capsule off if I wanted...the vet laughed at me for pullin one nail at a time...ended up derotating him and resetting the shoes as Jerry Jeff Walker played in the backround "p i s sin in the wind..." And they ended up doing the right thing and put him down a few weeks later...

[Travis Reed]

Seems like the insurance companies would have a vet to keep from doing unnecessary stuff that is causing immense pain. That seems like animal cruelty for a insurance company to go against the advise of the attending vet just to keep from paying out.

[daveyireland]

Re: first attempt last resort

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God thats nasty lookin! Those of you who have experience using banana shoes do you think i put too much of a belly in the shoe and enough wedge? or any other advice/help would be appreciated.

[Ray_Knightley]

I hope Ron gets in here...
My only thought was of the COA and if it would make any difference if the shoe was fixed to the vettec somehow and more of a toe lop??

[Ronald Aalders]

Originally Posted by everyhorseisapersontoo

I hope Ron gets in here...
My only thought was of the COA and if it would make any difference if the shoe was fixed to the vettec somehow and more of a toe lop??

I've worked on more laminitic cases than I can remember but I'm no miracle man yet. Considering the mistakes I made over the years I doubt I'll ever get to that enlightened stage

I have a few more or less random remarks, not at all meant to critise the shoeing presented here, very good jobs each and every one of them.

I noted a banana shoe with a lot of caudal support, in this case a eggbar shoe. Remember that a eggbar shoe lengthens the support surface (defined as the distance from COA to the heel, the spot where the foot is no longer supported). If that support surface gets too long compared to the break over length there will be an added lifting effect that may impede on one of the assets of the banana, the ability to rock backward. I would not use a banana with an eggbar shoe, I would use a straight bar.

The banana shoe in my opinion should have a the belly of its roll at the COA AFTER derotating P3. From the strained extensor branches of the suspensory in some of the after pictures I wonder if the derotation process went allright. (By the way the derotation does not immediately relax the suspensory so it might be ok)

Do not forget that for us as shoers working on laminitic horses is working towards NORMALISATION of the position of P3. The fancy shoes, even support and all the rest are vital, but secondary to the primary goal, normalising the situation so all structures involved can help genetics to fix what can be fixed.

As to the vettec it looks like the amount of roll could not be rasped into the foot. Superfast was used to fill in. Great, I use that technique a lot. You could also fill out the curved foot side with Vettec and rasp it so you create a banana with a level foot side that way. The advantage is you can drill the nail holes so you do not have to nail through the Vettec which is a pain.......


Ronald Aalders

[Mark_Gough]

Originally Posted by Ronald Aalders

I noted a banana shoe with a lot of caudal support, in this case a eggbar shoe. Remember that a eggbar shoe lengthens the support surface (defined as the distance from COA to the heel, the spot where the foot is no longer supported). If that support surface gets too long compared to the break over length there will be an added lifting effect that may impede on one of the assets of the banana, the ability to rock backward. I would not use a banana with an eggbar shoe, I would use a straight bar.

Ron, I'm not clear on the above paragraph. Can you help?

So the use of the straight bar is simply to avoid overly lengthening base of support from COA caudally. Your recommendation would be to maintain 50/50 base around COA even if one of the goals is to provide more caudal support, thereby relieving ground forces anterior to the COA? I think you're trying to provide a supportive base that allows the horse to determine optimal comfort position, yes?

The banana shoe in my opinion should have a the belly of its roll at the COA AFTER derotating P3. From the strained extensor branches of the suspensory in some of the after pictures I wonder if the derotation process went allright. (By the way the derotation does not immediately relax the suspensory so it might be ok)

I think this is a really critical part of your process and a 'light' may have just gone on. I'm guilty to this point of viewing the entire process as achieving both A/P balance around COA AND achieving 'derotation'. Clearly, this is not your intent.

I 'get' using the banana to help/allow the horse to find optimal A/P balance around COA but now realize I got it wrong when thinking about de-rotation. Do you try to achieve any repositioning of P3 via the trim alone, independent of the subsequent shoe installation? Two different tasks/goals, right?

You could also fill out the curved foot side with Vettec and rasp it so you create a banana with a level foot side that way. The advantage is you can drill the nail holes so you do not have to nail through the Vettec which is a pain.......

If there is ever a need to 'fill out' the curved foot side with vettec so you can achieve a level foot surface, why not just leave it level to begin with?

I'm really confused about the trim goal. Are we trimming a convex shape into the foot surface or seeking a flat surface, relying only on the convex ground surface of the shoe to deliver the balancing mechanism?

Cheers,
Mark

[Mark_Gough]

General commentary follows and is intended regards only the front feet of the horse.

I have, over the last year or more, posted quite a few inquiries/comments regarding Ron Aalders 'banana shoing' process/techniques.

Time for a bit of confessional observation and thought sharing.

In all that I have studied and learned about farriery, notwithstanding my own practical limitations, I have come to believe that Ron is applying a mechanical approach to horseshoeing that represents at least an evolutionary, if not revolutionary, concept in general farriery.

It is often observed, noted and reiterated that 'nothing is new under the sun' and that the basics of good farriery, with few exceptions, were well established more than a hundred years ago. No argument with that, however....

I can find no historical evidence that combines the mechanics of Ron's approach with the process concepts he has tried to perfect presented in such advanced detail and specific intent.

There are broad discussions and variations on balance via trim and support via shoeing, but no where do I see an approach that is so specifically designed and intended to allow the horse to help us.

I have come to view Ron's work as a mechanical means whereby we give the animal a 'voice'.

While more traditional shoeing represents a farrier's attempt to 'ease break-over', provide location specific support and guess/measure' optimal balance, the missing piece has always been a means whereby the horse can tell us, "you got close, but another millimeter of A/P support, or a bit more/less break-over here, would have been better". We depend upon the apparent visuals of 'did he walk off better than he walked up' to define our success.

Rather than guess, or even measure via radiograph, it appears to me that Ron's process, properly applied, can ultimately allow the horse to accomplish two things that we cannot otherwise do.

1. The horse can immediately self-adjust HPA error in our application to optimize comfort level.

2. More importantly, as the hoof grows/changes subsequent to the initial shoeing, the horse can self-adjust HPA to what 'feels' optimal, versus having to 'live' with bio-mechanical change until the next farrier visit. Those infinitesimally small adjustments can be made at any moment the horse chooses to do so.

In short, this process gives the animal some 'control' over the instantaneous A/P support and balance subsequent to driving that last nail.

Could this methodology reduce or even stop the 'bedding piling', minimize the 'foundered stance' or 'camped under' position the horse assumes in its own attempts to compensate for discomfort?

I'm not suggesting that a 'roller motion' shoe is entirely new or that Ron invented the concept.

What I am suggesting is that Ron's advanced approach to using this technique may have application far beyond shoeing the laminitic horse.

No argument that a flat, long base of support will always reduce the mass applied ground force per unit of square measure, thereby offering the horse greater, if not better, support. No argument that correctly applied wedging can help us better improve HPA and P3 alignment.

The banana shoe will certainly and less desirably concentrate mass/ground force over a much smaller area when used on any unforgiving surface (concrete, hard pack ground, etc). But, when used on more common, yielding ground surface terrain, that same ground force will spread gradually across the A/P length of the shoe/foot surface, offering adequate yet graduated support anterior and posterior to the COA.

It is difficult to imagine how, in practical use, this graduated A/P ground force distribution, combined with providing the animal its own mechanism for self adjusting caudal 'wedging', can be anything but a dramatic improvement over a flat shoe installation.

I can certainly see questionable issues surrounding the use of this application in some performance horses. Traction would be an obvious point of concern, as would lateral, momentary support during turns. Outside that performance world, the process has me thinking hard about the benefits to the otherwise sound horse.

Someone once told me that the 'ideally' balanced, supportive horseshoe would be a tennis ball cut in half and taped to the bottom of a horses foot. Perfect A/P and M/L balance, a yielding surface that offered graduated compressible support where and when needed, and a mechanism by which the horse can control 'wedging' fore and aft as necessary.

Ron's work may be the practical application of that conceptual tennis ball and it's something I want to learn a lot more about.

Cheers,
Mark

[Ronald Aalders]

Mark, a banana shaped ground surface does not concentrate pressure at one spot. Just like a regular shoe ground reaction forces are spread over the entire foot surface.

The reason for a 50/50 relation between break over length and support length has nothing to do with a banana shoe. It has to do with the "floating" theory where a foot in any footing with "give" will rotate away from the side where the ground surface is biggest. If you understand the principle behind a wide webbed lateral shoe why not this one? A long toe low heel increase the ground surface of the toe. This will leave the toe floating and the heels dig in the dirt ánd visa versa. (Like you'd find on a club or a laminitic case) Same goes for lateral and medial.

A banana trim DOES NOT EXIST. There is no such thing as a banana trim. A foot trimmed and shod with a banana shoe is a normally trimmed foot. The ground surface of the shoe is different that's all.

If you choose to make a banana out of a regular shoe like I often do, the foot side of that shoe is curved as well. This will force you to rasp away the toe and some of the heels to allow a proper seating of the shoe on the foot. If the foot is short you will find you can not rasp away all you need to seat the shoe. In that case you need a filler like Equilox or Vettec.

I hope this answers some of your questions.


Ronald Aalders

[Mark_Gough]

Originally Posted by Ronald Aalders

Mark, a banana shaped ground surface does not concentrate pressure at one spot. Just like a regular shoe ground reaction forces are spread over the entire foot surface.

Ron, not to be argumentative, but I have to ask how this can be true on a hard surface that offers no 'give'? A curved surface at rest on a flat surface will present a smaller contact surface area. Given that a horse likely spends little to no time on non-yielding surfaces, the point is of little value beyond academics but still appears valid. Not important enough to warrant much attention unless I'm missing something significant here. It's a given that most horses spend 99% of their time on surfaces with at least some yield.

The reason for a 50/50 relation between break over length and support length has nothing to do with a banana shoe.

Agreed. I was trying to better understand the relationship between extended support length (beyond 50% of base) and the apparent 'lifting' effect you described. I do understand how caudal length reduces the horses ability to rock backward.

It has to do with the "floating" theory where a foot in any footing with "give" will rotate away from the side where the ground surface is biggest.

Yep, agreed and understood.

If you understand the principle behind a wide webbed lateral shoe why not this one?

Because you are equating angular moment reaction to tangential ground forces (an asymmetric wide webbed lateral shoe) with increased support length from COA to heel. Well, that and the fact there are still subtle, but important, elements to what you are doing that I still need to better understand. I suspect there are others who would share in my ignorance.

A long toe low heel increase the ground surface of the toe. This will leave the toe floating and the heels dig in the dirt ánd visa versa. (Like you'd find on a club or a laminitic case) Same goes for lateral and medial.

Agreed.

A banana trim DOES NOT EXIST. There is no such thing as a banana trim. A foot trimmed and shod with a banana shoe is a normally trimmed foot. The ground surface of the shoe is different that's all.

That's what I originally thought... but also wondered if in some instances, you were trimming a convex shape into the foot to fit a concave mating shoe surface (effectively, a banana trim).

Your next comment indicates that, Yes... you often do!

If you choose to make a banana out of a regular shoe like I often do, the foot side of that shoe is curved as well. This will force you to rasp away the toe and some of the heels to allow a proper seating of the shoe on the foot.

Hence... a banana trim!

If the foot is short you will find you can not rasp away all you need to seat the shoe. In that case you need a filler like Equilox or Vettec.

Ron, forgive my ignorance, but this is a hugely important point.

In many of the photos you've previously posted, I was truly unsure as to whether the foot surface was trimmed flat or concave. In some of the photos, the foot surface is so subtle as to make it difficult to tell. Is the foot flat or curved to match a curving shoe?

Now the answer is clear. If there is enough foot to work with, you may trim/shape the foot to mate to a convex shoe surface. If the foot cannot be shaped to fit, you trim the foot flat and fill the concave foot surface of the shoe to level, yielding two, flat mating surfaces.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

It does. Thanks for your time and patience Ron.

One more question asked that I at least suggested earlier.

De-rotation of the coffin bone. Are you accomplishing this solely via the trim, or does the banana shoe play a role. My earlier comments suggested that I was attributing any de-rotation of P3 to the trim. The banana shoe serves the role of self-adjusting angles, eased break-over and support.

Two different goals; two different but complimentary processes, right?

Cheers,
Mark