Help me, help these hooves..

[Chestnutmare]

Hi all. I've been looking for a good trimming forum for awhile and this one seems to be the most informative.

My mare has had two farriers in her life- (she's 9) one was never available when I needed him (she'd go 9-10 weeks between trims) and the other carved out chunks of live sole (presumebly to get the concave look) and amongst other things, so I decided it upon myself to learn as much as I could and do her trimming myself..

My only tools are a hoofpick, rasp and hoof knife- nothing else.

Currently she's getting treated for thrush with dishwashing liquid and hydrogen peroxide (HP was recommended by previous farrier). Thrush comes and goes especially when it is wet.
She also has WLD I've been battleing this for awhile and would like to know the Australian equiviant of Clean Trax or White lightning if anyone knows?

History:
Has been out to pasture her entire life, barely gets ridden and was moderately fat but is now slowly losing excess weight as has been put in a smaller paddock.
Has never worn shoes.
Has never been sore on her feet on any terrain or had a problem with people picking up her feet to be trimmed.

Now I know these don't look so good...that's why I'm here- I need your advice and help to get these looking better.

What would you do with these hooves?

Nearside front only

[Chestnutmare]

Offside front only

[Chestnutmare]

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers.

[Southerngurl]

I'm interested to see what the farriers have to say on these..

I'll say what I feel like I'm seeing. The feet look laminitic to me. By the growth rings and look like she has lamilar wedge. I bevel all the way around through the quarters, not just the toe. I also round the edges of my bevel so their's nothing to grab and crack/chip. And looks like you got the right heel slightly longer on the nearside?

I know you say she's lost weight, so that should help. What is her entire diet? Aren't y'all copper deficient in a lot of areas down there? BTW, that stuff she's standing on is probably great for her feet, provided she's comfortable on it.

[Chestnutmare]

Hi and thanks for your reply.


Her entire diet consisted of 3 acres of nearly always lush grass (Far North Queensland, Australia) up until about 7 weeks ago when we moved her to a different location and size paddock.

First paddock (at new location) had only about half grass in about an acre and a half, and the second paddock at new location has about half grass and half sugar cane (agistment area was a sugar cane farm) in it on about the same amount of acres...I was going to buy her hay and leave her in the first paddock and just maintain her weight there, but the agistment owner said that I should probably move her to the paddock with "more feed" in it and so I took his advice.

Now I'm wondering if I should move her back to the original paddock we had picked out (the one with half grass) and buy low sugar content hay for when she needs it instead?

I have no idea if the grass around here is copper deficient?
She is comfortable on the bitumen (usual sort of roads we have) she will trot and walk on it without any apparent soreness.

[DavidinGA]

Are these pictures of just starting trim or of finished trim? Until you get some better advice I'll give you my opinion.

If these pictures are of after your trim, you're not doing nearly enough. It looks like you only rasped the heels and then didn't get them level. If you really look at the pictures you'll see what some folks on here call the right handed farriers disease. You've got both front feet leaning to the left because you hold your rasp in your right hand and are rasping more on that side of the foot. ( look at the pictures of straight on the front of the hooves) You also, don't seem to be addressing the toe at all from the bottom, you're just rounding it off from the top. Rounding it off is fine but you need to trim it level then round it off, if not it's going to keep getting longer. If you notice in the full body shot, she's standing under herself with her front feet causing her to be over at the knees, if you shorten those front toes I think she'll stand a little more forward and natural looking. I also think that those toes being long as they are are causing a good bit of your separation at the white line which is giving the bacteria and open invitation. That's why you have recurring bouts of WLD.

As I've said before I don't know about laminitis so I'll not comment on that but I do see some contracted heels causing deep center sulci on the frogs in both pictures, again giving the bacteria an open invitation. IMO that's why you can't get rid of the thrush.

Now all that I've said is my own opinion and what I would do, hopefully it's not too far off base from what the more talented members here would say but, if it is rest assured they will let us both know.

I also think your horse would be a good candidate for some of Pete Ramey's methods. Here's a link to his website so you can see what you think about it.

http://www.hoofrehab.com/

Also, if your only option is learning through reading, try getting some farriery books like Principles of Horseshoeing or Hickman's Farriery. Both are excellent books with good illustrations and pictures to help you understand but, again I think the best thing you could do is a weekend trimming course or some hands on instruction from a good local farrier.

By The Way, there are a few farriers on here from Australia. If you look around and ask nicely one of them may be able to help you in person.

David

[Southerngurl]

You also, don't seem to be addressing the toe at all from the bottom, you're just rounding it off from the top. Rounding it off is fine but you need to trim it level then round it off, if not it's going to keep getting longer.

Unless you are just meaning a bevel in the lamilar wedge I disagee, I would not cut into the sole. You bring the toe back and grow in good connection, it will pick the coffin bone up and shorten the toe without removing sole.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

[DavidinGA]

Originally Posted by Southerngurl

Unless you are just meaning a bevel in the lamilar wedge I disagee, I would not cut into the sole. You bring the toe back and grow in good connection, it will pick the coffin bone up and shorten the toe without removing sole.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

I guess maybe I was unclear. I meant she needs to trim the excess hoof wall in the toe area. I definately didn't say anything about cutting into the sole, I just said I think she's leaving the toe too long and that's causing pressure which is causing the separation,which in it's turn is contributing to the WLD she can't get rid of.

David

[Chestnutmare]

Originally Posted by DavidinGA

Are these pictures of just starting trim or of finished trim? Until you get some better advice I'll give you my opinion.

No, not finished, because I wanted advice on what I should be doing better than what I am.

If these pictures are of after your trim, you're not doing nearly enough. It looks like you only rasped the heels and then didn't get them level.

Yes, I do see what you both mean (SG and you) I only noticed after I saw these on the screen.

You also, don't seem to be addressing the toe at all from the bottom, you're just rounding it off from the top. Rounding it off is fine but you need to trim it level then round it off, if not it's going to keep getting longer.

The walls at the toes are not taller/longer than the soles - so I was thinking there should be no "lift" I'm probably wrong.

If you notice in the full body shot, she's standing under herself with her front feet causing her to be over at the knees, if you shorten those front toes I think she'll stand a little more forward and natural looking.

How much shorter should I go? Should I go to the white line?

but I do see some contracted heels causing deep center sulci on the frogs in both pictures, again giving the bacteria an open invitation. IMO that's why you can't get rid of the thrush.

Contracted heels are caused by long or underslung/run heels right? Are the heels to long? I thought the cracks were caused by thrush (through reading material from the net)?

Now all that I've said is my own opinion and what I would do, hopefully it's not too far off base from what the more talented members here would say but, if it is rest assured they will let us both know.

Thankyou for your imput! I will try and get the heels level and will wait for a response before I trim the toes as I don't know where I should stop with them.

I also think your horse would be a good candidate for some of Pete Ramey's methods. Here's a link to his website so you can see what you think about it.

Yes I like his methods, it would be good if he had a forum.

Also, if your only option is learning through reading, try getting some farriery books like Principles of Horseshoeing or Hickman's Farriery. Both are excellent books with good illustrations and pictures to help you understand

Thanks for your recommendations- will have a look and see if my local tack store has any of those.

[Chestnutmare]

Also, if anyone would like different shots, just let me know

[calshoer]

The heels need to be brought back and down a LOT more. They are run forward under the foot, which is doing two things 1) it is causing the back of the foot to lack support and 2) the forward heels are helping create the flare in the toe. When one part of the back of a hoof moves forward, something else at the opposite end goes forward too because it's all connected.
The toe needs to be rolled and the bottom about 1" forward of the frog apex (the tip of the frog) and if that means rasping a bevel right through sole, then rasp through sole. Any sole ahead of that line is DEAD, STRETCHED, there is nothing sensitive or supportive underneath it, and it needs the weight bearing taken off it.

That dead stretched sole, ahead of the line across the foot , can be removed with absolutely no harm to the horse if you leave a little hoofwall extending beyond the sole around the toe before to you rocker it. if that bit of extra wall is left there in the corners of the toe, (from your rocker line back) , you will not make the horse sore. This is NOT the same as paring out or thinning functional sole anywhere under the edge of the coffin bone.

Then dress the flares off that hoofwall ! There is ZERO reason to leave the flare.Flared wall supports nothing and just causes more flare.

The rockered toe, the flare gone, and the heels brought back enough will all help the hoofwall grow in better attached.

[calshoer]

LIKE THIS: before and after how it will look, and where to roll the toe from the bottom. The roll in the toe does not have to be quite as step as my drawing, and not hacked through just rasped maybe 15-20 degrees in angle.

[Chestnutmare]

Alright, my tack store does have Principles of Horseshoeing @ $350.00 lol! So I won't be getting that anytime soon.

.................

Thankyou calshoer for your illustrations and advice. I took the heel back to the back of the frog and tried to make them even- didn't take photo's as it were getting late, but will when the weather clears up (it's currently raining).

I didn't take the toe back to just in front of the toe pillars (like in your drawing)- as I would like others to share their thoughts on that, but instead took it back to the very edge of the sole. I was also thinking that if anyone else wanted to comment on cutting into the sole it would also give my horse time to adjust to a shortened toe and make it far less dramatic if it were cut right back in two steps rather than just one. (hope that makes sense)

I rolled both hooves to the best I know how, and I know that neatness will only come out of practice. She is moving fine and is not sore so it is a relief!
I haven't rasped the flares of the walls from the top...yet. Does this need to be done? No flare is touching the ground, it's all rolled away.

I also moved her back into the paddock that we had picked out for her originally.

Any more thoughts, questions or opinions are very welcome!

[calshoer]

It is important to move the breakover point of the foot back, rolling right through that sole ahead of the line from the bottom if necessary, because it is NOT FUNCTIONAL sole and is causing problems .
If you trim the heels and leave the long distorted toe you can HURT your horse. A long toe creates leverage adding stresses to the structures inside the foot. Lowering the heels without taking care of the leverage in the toe toe can increase these stresses. In other words omitting the correction of the other end of the foot from the equation can makes some issues WORSE. BOTH ENDS of the foot must be addressed at the same time. Using half of a technique but omitting the other half is not in the best interest of the horse!!
The whole idea of trimming heels AND rolling the toe correctly is to balance the outer hoof around the structures inside.
As well if you leave that distorted toe, the heels will regrow very quickly in response to the unequal stresses in the foot.
I GUARANTEE the sole ahead of the 1" line is STRETCED, DEAD, insensitive sole that is only adding leverage on the coffin joint, navicular bone and impar ligament inside that foot.
So if you are going to balance the foot, then balance the foot. All at once. Your horse will NOT complain as long as you do EVERYthing I mentioned all together and do not skip a part. If you start mixing methods though, you may cause problems.

[Southerngurl]

My understanding is that that is not truly sole at all, true sole grows from the bottom of the coffin bone. That is keratinized material growing from the dermis... if I remember right! It's called lamilar wedge. It's caused from the lamina that grows down the wall disconnecting from the lamina that grows down the bone. So it fills in that area with keratinized material that looks much like sole.