Help Needed Here!

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Originally Posted by Auventera

I typed a response here but deleted. The forums don't deserve this type of childish bickering.

It doesn't look deleted from where I sit. Looks like I'm reading and quoting it!

I'm sorry that you got so offended that a link was incorrect on my website. It happens. It's a huge site, there's a lot of stuff going on. I don't review every page every day checking every link.

Yeh right! Trust me I didn't get "offended". The word you are searching for is "AMUSED". Your own web site with a photo you linked to. Still a VERY simple little error when you don't know how to spot a vegetable. Seems I do though

I've corrected the link so I hope you can sleep easy at night now Thomas.

Don't worry I won't be troubled by losing sleep over your lack of attention to detail or your lack of knowledge.

In the future if you find an incorrect link, please feel free to call my cell phone or home number, which are both listed on the website. I will be happy to go over it with you. I understand you're in the UK and that the call will be expensive, but I'm sure you will find it well worth it. Thanks!

I've absolutely no intention of educating you for free whilst indulging myself in time trouble and expense when I can do it just as easily over the forums. That's how forums work.

Someone posts nonsense or links to something incorrect and someone else posts to say "YOU'VE GOT THAT WRONG"

I am now off to trim 5 horses, 2 of which are foundered, now eat soaked beet pulp and soaked hay and are doing significantly better. Beet pulp is a wonderful feed for metabolic horses. I recommend it to anyone wanting to reduce sugar in the horse's diet.

Yeh right!

So now you're an expert in trimming foundered horses and only about a year ago you were buying a qualification off the internet and about to own your first foundered pony and asking if anyone had any experience at all of recovering one.

[Auventera]

Originally Posted by mwmyersdvm

Just a note on the nutrition of laminitic horses. It is unfortunate that so many of these horses are malnousished when they begin the inflammatory responses of the laminae. These damaged tissues need correct nutrition for repair. This comes in the form of appropriate amounts of protein containing essential amino acids in order to reconstruct. This cannot be provided by beet pulp and hay alone. A correctly fed protein supplement will make a dramatic difference in the recovery of these animals.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

Good point Dr. Myers. Everyone with a metabolic horse should have their hay tested. Every crop, every year can vary considerably in the nutrition profile, protein included. Owners should not look for cheap, old, "poor" hay for metabolic horses. The hay may be lower in sugar content but also have a good nutrition profile and protein content, so analysis is a vital piece of the puzzle. Also there are other safe feeds for metabolic horses such as ground flax, black oil seeds, or any of the low starch commercially produced feeds. I do not recommend to anyone to ONLY feed beet pulp and hay. A good vitamin mineral supplement is also very important. Also, I like the FeedXL program, which is a tool to analyze the equine diet. It gives a good snapshot of what may be lacking, or what is supplied over-abundantly. I use FeedXL for analyzing the diets of all my horses. It costs some money, but it is well worth it. Combine this with hay analysis, and feeding commercially prepared feeds by weight, and you can develop a very good diet for any horse.

[Auventera]

Originally Posted by Ronald Aalders

Are you really really sure that's what been fed to those horses? Beet pulp?

Ronald Aalders

Yes, I am. Really really sure. Soaked beet pulp, and Wellsolve L/S, along with soaked hay. Feeding non-molasses beet pulp to foundered or metabolic horses is a pretty common thing in the U.S. but from what I gather on the forums, it is not very common in other countries.

Here is a thread with a comprehensive post by Katy Watts that may be of interest to you:
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/arc...php/t-873.html

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Holland produces a heck of a lot of sugarbeet and have been feeding it to stock (including horses) for decades.

[Auventera]

Originally Posted by Thomas_Ride&Drive

Holland produces a heck of a lot of sugarbeet and have been feeding it to stock (including horses) for decades.

If you will read my post more thoroughly, I specifically noted "foundered or metabolic horses." I did not state, nor imply that it was not fed to livestock (including horses) for decades.

For a few years, I have noted UK posters admonishing the feeding of "sugar beet" to metabolic equines. And it's also funny that the name is always changed from beet pulp to "sugar beet." Apparently the word "sugar" in the description makes it sound all the more egregious. You have chastised me publicly on multiple occasions for feeding "sugar beet" to foundered equines. You never have produced any proof or scientific data stating that beet pulp is dangerous for the metabolic equine, and in fact, experts in the field report directly opposite of your personal findings Thomas.

The veterinarians I use agree that non-molasses beet pulp is a VERY safe feed for foundered or otherwise insulin resistant equines. Dr. Elanor Kellon has reported that beet pulp has been shown to initiate very little to no glycemic response in the equine, meaning no insulin surge.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Originally Posted by Auventera

If you will read my post more thoroughly, I specifically noted "foundered or metabolic horses." I did not state, nor imply that it was not fed to livestock (including horses) for decades.

I think you'll discover that the USA didn't invent feeding sugarbeet to laminitic horses. They've been doing it in other countries and including in Europe for decades and particularly as an alternative if good (low sugar) equine forage hay isn't readily available.

For a few years, I have noted UK posters admonishing the feeding of "sugar beet" to metabolic equines.

Really? That's bizarre because it's also used here.

To refresh your mind have a look at this:

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4655

Posts 10 and 26 are the relevent ones.

And it's also funny that the name is always changed from beet pulp to "sugar beet." Apparently the word "sugar" in the description makes it sound all the more egregious.

That's because in Europe we call it sugarbeet. It's to distinguish it from other beet which is also grown extensively over here: e.g. beetroot. But hey you've now become an expert in UK language and culture and agriculture.

You have chastised me publicly on multiple occasions for feeding "sugar beet" to foundered equines.

I've not at all. What I've come back at you about is the totality of your horses diet and when specifically you've been having problems either getting weight on, getting weight off, ulcers, colic, behavioural etc etc etc etc

You never have produced any proof or scientific data stating that beet pulp is dangerous for the metabolic equine, and in fact, experts in the field report directly opposite of your personal findings Thomas.

Let me repeat: I feed sugarbeet to stock. I know it can be fed to horses. I know damned well it's NOT dangerous per se. However you're a legend in your own mind and in that mind you've decided that despite the fact that I grow acres of the damned stuff and actually was one of the first to post to you when you knew nothing about it and were thinking of feeding it to your newly acquired chronic laminitic and foundered horse, that you now know more than me.... indeed anyone about the stuff.

Trust me though I am not Too Simple or Too ****** to know a sugar beet from a beetroot or a professional from someone who hasn't got a clue!

Clue: If folks at laughing at your bulletin board and your horses are peeing bright red then you've probably got it VERY wrong!

The veterinarians I use agree that non-molasses beet pulp is a VERY safe feed for foundered or otherwise insulin resistant equines.

That will be the 5, 6 or 7 vets you had out when your horse coliced ? That all gave you contradictory advice??

Don't bother answering though because I know you can feed sugarbeet extracted pulp to horses as a decent forage alternative and even if they've got laminitis.

Dr. Elanor Kellon has reported that beet pulp has been shown to initiate very little to no glycemic response in the equine, meaning no insulin surge.

So what. That's pretty well known and I've never disputed it other than in your mind!

[Auventera]

Well Thomas, bless your heart! You've also continually stated that you initially "told me about beet pulp" but you are wrong. My mother and I were feeding beet pulp to horses YEARS before I ever acquired a foundered horse. I created a thread asking others how THEY soak beet pulp, and you took that to mean that I had no experience with it at all. You've been corrected endlessly but still spread the lie. Asking other people how THEY do something, is not the same as having no experience. I thought people could share ideas on how they soak and rinse beet pulp the EASIEST. You sure enjoy twisting the truth to being something it is not.

I'm not interested in littering up the boards with childish he-said/she-said. Whatever baggage you're carrying around in your wheelbarrow, just drop it Thomas. Move on.

[Cyber Farrier]

Originally Posted by Auventera

... Asking other people how THEY do something, is not the same as having no experience.

I agree with that, regardless of what the question is about.

Both of you, please leave the baggage outside, and move on.

Baron Tayler

[Ronald Aalders]

Originally Posted by Thomas_Ride&Drive

Holland produces a heck of a lot of sugarbeet and have been feeding it to stock (including horses) for decades.

Make that centuries Tom


Ronald Aalders

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Originally Posted by Ronald Aalders

Make that centuries Tom


Ronald Aalders

I'd not appreciated you were that old Ron