Help Needed Here!

Originally Posted by mwmyersdvm

Just a note on the nutrition of laminitic horses. It is unfortunate that so many of these horses are malnousished when they begin the inflammatory responses of the laminae. These damaged tissues need correct nutrition for repair. This comes in the form of appropriate amounts of protein containing essential amino acids in order to reconstruct. This cannot be provided by beet pulp and hay alone. A correctly fed protein supplement will make a dramatic difference in the recovery of these animals.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

Good point Dr. Myers. Everyone with a metabolic horse should have their hay tested. Every crop, every year can vary considerably in the nutrition profile, protein included. Owners should not look for cheap, old, "poor" hay for metabolic horses. The hay may be lower in sugar content but also have a good nutrition profile and protein content, so analysis is a vital piece of the puzzle. Also there are other safe feeds for metabolic horses such as ground flax, black oil seeds, or any of the low starch commercially produced feeds. I do not recommend to anyone to ONLY feed beet pulp and hay. A good vitamin mineral supplement is also very important. Also, I like the FeedXL program, which is a tool to analyze the equine diet. It gives a good snapshot of what may be lacking, or what is supplied over-abundantly. I use FeedXL for analyzing the diets of all my horses. It costs some money, but it is well worth it. Combine this with hay analysis, and feeding commercially prepared feeds by weight, and you can develop a very good diet for any horse.

Originally Posted by Ronald Aalders

Are you really really sure that's what been fed to those horses? Beet pulp?

Ronald Aalders

Yes, I am. Really really sure. Soaked beet pulp, and Wellsolve L/S, along with soaked hay. Feeding non-molasses beet pulp to foundered or metabolic horses is a pretty common thing in the U.S. but from what I gather on the forums, it is not very common in other countries.

Here is a thread with a comprehensive post by Katy Watts that may be of interest to you:
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/arc...php/t-873.html

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Holland produces a heck of a lot of sugarbeet and have been feeding it to stock (including horses) for decades.

Originally Posted by Thomas_Ride&Drive

Holland produces a heck of a lot of sugarbeet and have been feeding it to stock (including horses) for decades.

If you will read my post more thoroughly, I specifically noted "foundered or metabolic horses." I did not state, nor imply that it was not fed to livestock (including horses) for decades.

For a few years, I have noted UK posters admonishing the feeding of "sugar beet" to metabolic equines. And it's also funny that the name is always changed from beet pulp to "sugar beet." Apparently the word "sugar" in the description makes it sound all the more egregious. You have chastised me publicly on multiple occasions for feeding "sugar beet" to foundered equines. You never have produced any proof or scientific data stating that beet pulp is dangerous for the metabolic equine, and in fact, experts in the field report directly opposite of your personal findings Thomas.

The veterinarians I use agree that non-molasses beet pulp is a VERY safe feed for foundered or otherwise insulin resistant equines. Dr. Elanor Kellon has reported that beet pulp has been shown to initiate very little to no glycemic response in the equine, meaning no insulin surge.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Originally Posted by Auventera

If you will read my post more thoroughly, I specifically noted "foundered or metabolic horses." I did not state, nor imply that it was not fed to livestock (including horses) for decades.

I think you'll discover that the USA didn't invent feeding sugarbeet to laminitic horses. They've been doing it in other countries and including in Europe for decades and particularly as an alternative if good (low sugar) equine forage hay isn't readily available.

For a few years, I have noted UK posters admonishing the feeding of "sugar beet" to metabolic equines.

Really? That's bizarre because it's also used here.

To refresh your mind have a look at this:

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4655

Posts 10 and 26 are the relevent ones.

And it's also funny that the name is always changed from beet pulp to "sugar beet." Apparently the word "sugar" in the description makes it sound all the more egregious.

That's because in Europe we call it sugarbeet. It's to distinguish it from other beet which is also grown extensively over here: e.g. beetroot. But hey you've now become an expert in UK language and culture and agriculture.

You have chastised me publicly on multiple occasions for feeding "sugar beet" to foundered equines.

I've not at all. What I've come back at you about is the totality of your horses diet and when specifically you've been having problems either getting weight on, getting weight off, ulcers, colic, behavioural etc etc etc etc

You never have produced any proof or scientific data stating that beet pulp is dangerous for the metabolic equine, and in fact, experts in the field report directly opposite of your personal findings Thomas.

Let me repeat: I feed sugarbeet to stock. I know it can be fed to horses. I know damned well it's NOT dangerous per se. However you're a legend in your own mind and in that mind you've decided that despite the fact that I grow acres of the damned stuff and actually was one of the first to post to you when you knew nothing about it and were thinking of feeding it to your newly acquired chronic laminitic and foundered horse, that you now know more than me.... indeed anyone about the stuff.

Trust me though I am not Too Simple or Too ****** to know a sugar beet from a beetroot or a professional from someone who hasn't got a clue!

Clue: If folks at laughing at your bulletin board and your horses are peeing bright red then you've probably got it VERY wrong!

The veterinarians I use agree that non-molasses beet pulp is a VERY safe feed for foundered or otherwise insulin resistant equines.

That will be the 5, 6 or 7 vets you had out when your horse coliced ? That all gave you contradictory advice??

Don't bother answering though because I know you can feed sugarbeet extracted pulp to horses as a decent forage alternative and even if they've got laminitis.

Dr. Elanor Kellon has reported that beet pulp has been shown to initiate very little to no glycemic response in the equine, meaning no insulin surge.

So what. That's pretty well known and I've never disputed it other than in your mind!

Well Thomas, bless your heart! You've also continually stated that you initially "told me about beet pulp" but you are wrong. My mother and I were feeding beet pulp to horses YEARS before I ever acquired a foundered horse. I created a thread asking others how THEY soak beet pulp, and you took that to mean that I had no experience with it at all. You've been corrected endlessly but still spread the lie. Asking other people how THEY do something, is not the same as having no experience. I thought people could share ideas on how they soak and rinse beet pulp the EASIEST. You sure enjoy twisting the truth to being something it is not.

I'm not interested in littering up the boards with childish he-said/she-said. Whatever baggage you're carrying around in your wheelbarrow, just drop it Thomas. Move on.

[Cyber Farrier]

Originally Posted by Auventera

... Asking other people how THEY do something, is not the same as having no experience.

I agree with that, regardless of what the question is about.

Both of you, please leave the baggage outside, and move on.

Baron Tayler

[Ronald Aalders]

Originally Posted by Thomas_Ride&Drive

Holland produces a heck of a lot of sugarbeet and have been feeding it to stock (including horses) for decades.

Make that centuries Tom


Ronald Aalders

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Originally Posted by Ronald Aalders

Make that centuries Tom


Ronald Aalders

I'd not appreciated you were that old Ron

[Gail Bond]

Hey there if you experiencing this for the first time, like me, the information you get is mind blowing. Seems to be very conflicting. I think you have to go by your gut instincts. Good luck, think you will need it.

[Katy Watts]

Originally Posted by Auventera

Dr. Elanor Kellon has reported that beet pulp has been shown to initiate very little to no glycemic response in the equine, meaning no insulin surge.

Actually, at recent conferences, researchers are reporting insulin response does not always mirror glucose response. Some things can cause an insulin response without a rise in glucose. Therefore, earlier work looking only at glycemic response is outdated.

Look at the wide range of sugar in beet pulp at the Dairy One database.
http://www.dairyone.com/Forage/FeedComp/disclaimer.asp

WSC ranges from 3-17%, so some beet pulp is too high for IR horses. Best to always drain off the water after soaking.
Katy Watts

Originally Posted by Katy Watts

Best to always drain off the water after soaking.
Katy Watts

I always do if feeding shreds. If feeding crumbles, I can't because it turns into an oatmeal like texture. I've never ever had a problem feeding beet pulp to either of my IR horses. They do VERY well on it. I've had soreness occur from the occasional bales of hay that must have had high sugar weeds in them, but have never had soreness occur from feeding beet pulp. Both my IR mares eat 1 pound (dry weight) per day, then soaked and never have a problem. There was a time when I thought the molasses in the shreds caused soreness in the one mare, but later found out it was from something else. Every foundered horse I trim eats soaked beet pulp, and they are all significantly improved from when I first started trimming them.

If you look in my profile, you can see the photos of some of those horse's feet. I do a few that literally could not walk from their hay pile to their water bucket they were in such acute pain. Some of the vets around here say "just feed grass hay and they'll be fine." Well, as you well know, the sugar in grass hay can be through the roof! Also vets say feed Safechoice pellets, and we all know those are anything BUT safe for laminitics. By supplementing a portion of the diet for beet pulp, then using pellets like Wellsolve L/S, the horses come around well.

[Katy Watts]

Originally Posted by Auventera

If feeding crumbles, I can't because it turns into an oatmeal like texture.

which is why I made a beet pulp pellet soaking bucket. Big holes in bottom, window screen cut to cover bottom, fits inside bigger bucket. After soaking, just lift out and drain. Pellets can have too much sugar, and should be drained just like the shreds.
Katy

[ridelikeagirl]

Have any of you tried Speedi-beet ? I feed it to my endurace horses . I love it .

http://www.speedi-beetsa.co.za/25/fr...ut-speedi-beet


Melody Blittersdorf

Katy - I feed a lot of crumbles and I haven't had a problem with too much sugar. Never had a horse get sore and all of mine are eating a pound of dry weight a day (then soaked.) The crumbles are not pellets. They are more like a powder - looks like ground flax seed or rice bran meal. We can't get pellets here so I don't know what those are like to soak. If I had a reason to drain them, I would but fortunately the sugar content seems to be consistent as I've never had a horse get sore from beet pulp. If your experience is different, then it's good that soaking alleviates the problem. Undoubtedly, different mills have different processing procedures which can affect sugar content.

It's been forever since I signed onto the Cushings group but Dr. Kellon references the fiber content in beet pulp somehow mitigating the amount of sugar found in the product. I can't recall the details of the article I read but she explains how the sugar in the beet pulp is utilized by the horse, and the type of sugar versus the fiber content. She recommends to thousands of people every year to use beet pulp as a safe, effective substitute for a portion of the hay and other feed in the horse's diet. And as you know, Dr. Kellon, and some of the folks on the Cushings group go a tad "overboard" on controlling sugar in the IR horse's diet. To the point that they've published a very long list of things to avoid because they may in some way remotely affect the way sugar or hormones are utilized within the horse's body. If any one group were going to broadcast that beet pulp can be dangerous, it would be them.