Draft Horse hoof problems

[2Tootall]

I have a Percheron/Belgian gelding, 4yrs old. Purchased last October 2007 from a young girl who didn't have any information on him. I currently have him in a pasture with about 8 other QTR horses. The pasture is snow packed and has several layers of thick ice. It also has a slight slope to the pasture. It is slick for all the horses to walk.
My question and perhaps problem with this draft is this. I noticed last week that when I went to feed his coffee can of oats he would stomp his back feet while eating. Now I have noticed that his coronary bands feel hotter than normal and the heat seems to be up the legs a bit. The hoof itself feels a little warm but not hot. He is standing fine, but does shift his weight on the hind feet back and forth a bit, no lameness observed and leads around well. I have him on grass hay, round bales, that all horses have access to. He was getting one 2lb coffee can of whole oats a day, no more.
Last timming was in October,2007. He does not have shoes on.
I am wondering if the heat in his hoofs could be caused by the hard ice pack? or could it be the beginning of something more major?
I did call the Vet and she just wanted to give him Bute.
Anyone have any suggestions on this?

[vthorseshoe]

Have you picked up the foot and given it a though inspection and checked it for foreign objects like ice/stone/stick/nails etc.. ?
Sonmetimes ice or frozen manure or other objects become lodged in the commisures of the foot.
Especially if the foot is in need of a trim . The frog may have grown a lot and has an object wedged.
The frog should be inspected for a possible cut. Sharp ice may have cut the frog and it may be tender.

My next thought is an oncoming abcess.

It would cause him discomfort, The hard ice can cause a bruise very easily on any horse with out pads on.

Another thought is he might have slipped or twisted his leg when moving on the icey ground.
That would cause discomfort and might cause the foot stomping.

My suggestion is to get your vet out there to inspect the hoof/leg and make a physical inspection.

Now on your vet prescribing bute over the phone. I believe that is what you implied.

I would have the vet come out and inspect the animal.
I have yet to see an owner give a good description over the phone to a vet so the vet can make a positive diagnosis.
He/she needs to "look/touch/test and then make and educated diagnosis or decide whether or not to go further with x-rays or one of the newer methods of finding the source of the problem."

[2Tootall]

Thank you for your input on this.

Yes, I have looked at his feet. There is no obvious cuts or forgein objects in or around the frog.
It seems to be ALL of his feet and not just one. So, I am thinking/hoping that there would not be abcesses in all feet.
The stomping of his feet was the back two and has subsided a bit. All though he still shifts his weight from one hind leg to the other and picking up the foot without the weight, resting it.
We have not rode him during this bad weather we are having. We have lead him up and down the road and he walks and trots along without any distress.

I am still concerned about the heat in the upper part of his hoof just under the hair. I have no idea what could be causing this problem.

Do you think it could be possible (without knowing his past history) that just giving him one 2 lb coffee can of whole oats, could be causing this problem?

I am concerned about foundering, even though I have never heard of a horse foundering on such a small amount of grain. We started his graining in October when we got him as he was on the thin side. He has gotten grain everyday since.

Please, anyone with suggestions please reply.

[vthorseshoe]

Founder is always a possibility, but you didn't mention it was being done with all 4 feet.
Sometimes a horse will stomp his feet when eating as a habit they develope either to keep others away or out of nervesness.
Call a vet out and have them give you their opinion.

[HoustonFarrier]

Pastern Dermatitis....also called Chronic Progressive Lymphadema. Do a google on that, and I think you'll find your answers.

Steve

[2Tootall]

Thank you both for your replies.

I am having the Vet come out as soon as possible to check this problem out.
I did do research on Patern Dermatitis and will keep a close eye out for this problem. I am really hoping that isn't the cause of the heat around his coronary band under his hair. At this point we don't have any sores nor can I feel any 'bumps'.
I am going to take him off his oats until I know for sure what is going on with him. I will keep you posted as to the out come.

[HoustonFarrier]

Unless the vet is well versed in draft horse physiology, he/she may miss the CPL, if that is what it is. The stomping of the foot is a dead give-away of it. I raise Clydesdales, and we see allot of this, especially as they get older. My 9yo gelding has it, and he does not have any sores or scabs. If you feel under his pastern, you can feel the large "lesions" that are under the skin. If feels like a large fold of skin under the skin. Some horses respond to things othes don't. Right now, we are trying MSM on our gelding, to see if it helps. One of our mares responded well to Preperation H ....yep, that's right. It's a great anti-inflammatory! Sometimes DMSO (externally) will help as well, but your horse smells BAD !

Keeping your horse out of the mud, and dry will help. I would remove all grain, and just put him on hay (no alfalfa) until you get a good diagnosis.

Best of luck

Steve

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Originally Posted by 2Tootall

Last timming was in October,2007. He does not have shoes on.

HOW LONG???

Wayyyyyyyyy overdue for a trim!

[2Tootall]

I would like to thank all of you for your suggestions and input, it is greatly appreciated!

I did have the vet come out and look at him. He did not find him to be in early stages of foundering, nor did he find any dermatitis. We did find that his molars were very rough/sharp causing discomfort during eating. We floated the teeth. The Vet could not find any obvious cause of the warmth in his feet. He did not feel that the coffee can of whole oats every day was the problem. He did ask us to put him on a couple of cups of senior feed (in addition to the oats) to help with his feet growth. He also placed him on bute for a couple of weeks to help with inflamation that he may be having in the feet. He did say that the ice pack could be a contributing factor. We will re-evaluate in a month to see how he does on this therapy.

I am also putting a hoof salve on his coronary bands in hope that this will helps some. I am calling in a farrier to do a trim on him and I will be asking him to check for CPL too. I have felt all over and have not felt any folds, but having never delt with this before I may be just passing it over and not realizing it. Toby is coming 5yrs and I all ways thought these things happened in older horses....more to learn about drafts I guess

[StalknNdaShadows]

Originally Posted by HoustonFarrier

Pastern Dermatitis....also called Chronic Progressive Lymphadema. Do a google on that, and I think you'll find your answers.

Steve

Hate to disagree but they are not the same thing.

Pastern dermatitis seems to be more of a 'catch all' phrase for when there is skin problems but can cover a vast array of things from bacterial infections, the fungal, etc. I've found many vets will label something 'pastern dermatitis' if they cannot pinpoint an exact problem.

CPL seems to be a combination disease of lymphatic problems as well as immune system problems. The skin infection or dermatitis that is common is generally secondary to the actual problem.

I hope the OPs horse doesn't have CPL. It pains me to see a horse with it, especially in the late stages.

I had someone ask for help with a clyde they rescued. The way she was described sounded like a bad case of CPL. I met her in person and there was no doubt she is possibly one of the worst cases I've seen plus she had a severe secondary skin infection. With her it affects all four legs badly; all enlarged, all had lesions, thickening, nodules, the whole nine yards. The fetlocks on three legs were huge the fourth leg was enormous in person(joints the size of a basketball.)

Feathers were trimmed back, most of the thickness around the lower leg was just swelling and nodules.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...s/DSCN2211.jpg

The worst leg compared to the 'more normal' back leg.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...s/DSCN2209.jpg

Close up the really bad one so you can see the masses better. Note though where the skin is dark was from the hair being singed. Her leg was shaved as close as possible and the vet then singed a good bit of the hair in the worst area off as a last resort to get air to the region to kill aerobic bacteria and for better ability to treat the area directly.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...s/DSCN2208.jpg

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Originally Posted by 2Tootall

I did have the vet come out and look at him. . . . The Vet could not find any obvious cause of the warmth in his feet.

No blood work???

Originally Posted by 2Tootall

He did not feel that the coffee can of whole oats every day was the problem.

A Vet. Shouldn’t “Emotionally Feel” a diagnosis.
I would get him off grain. Give him lots of grass hay.
My opinion. What is he doing to warrant any grain?

Originally Posted by 2Tootall

He did ask us to put him on a couple of cups of senior feed (in addition to the oats) to help with his feet growth.

What is in the SF that might help, or are we just gonna throw, maybe’s at him. (I thought he was 4 years young) there are other feeds. But SF???

Originally Posted by 2Tootall

He also placed him on bute for a couple of weeks to help with inflamation that he may be having in the feet.

Drugs for a Maybe? Is there inflammation or not?

Originally Posted by 2Tootall

He did say that the ice pack could be a contributing factor. We will re-evaluate in a month to see how he does on this therapy.

Did he us a hoof tester to see if there was any tenderness to the sole, frog?

I don't see a Therapy here.

Golly,
I realize all of this could just be your interpretation,
But if that is what went on, you need to ask more Q.’S

Was this an animal vet,

or a war vet.

[HoustonFarrier]

Hate to disagree but they are not the same thing.

No, they are not the same, BUT,pastern dermatitis, in a draft horse, left unchecked and uncared for , will 99.99999% of the time evolve into CPL. I've seen enough of them to know. I've seen horses with ALL 4 legs worse than that. I've seen horses, treated by vets for years, whose "nodules" were black and to the point that hair would not even grow.

One of the best ways to help the immune system in a draft, is to keep a tight check on the parasite load. Keeping the parasites down, will help the CPL horse allot.

As for the OP.....you might want to search around for a Clydesdale breeder in your area and have them take a look at your horse....they might be of more help at this stage. I've seen allot of vets really make the CPL WORSE for the horse because they just don't know enough.

Best of luck.

Steve

[StalknNdaShadows]

Originally Posted by HoustonFarrier

No, they are not the same, BUT,pastern dermatitis, in a draft horse, left unchecked and uncared for , will 99.99999% of the time evolve into CPL. I've seen enough of them to know.

Pastern Dermatitis may very well be a big contributing factor to CPL, but to me it is misleading to tell someone they are the same thing when they are two different animals to deal with.

I've seen horses with ALL 4 legs worse than that. I've seen horses, treated by vets for years, whose "nodules" were black and to the point that hair would not even grow.

I just said she was the worst case I had personally seen. I wish I could see her again because she was eventually given to the vet because he took a liking to the mare and the owners no longer had the time or her constant upkeep. Last I heard the vet had made amazing progress and was possibly going to have a paper published on a course of treatment that seemed to be working for these horses.

[HoustonFarrier]

Originally Posted by StalknNdaShadows

Pastern Dermatitis may very well be a big contributing factor to CPL, but to me it is misleading to tell someone they are the same thing when they are two different animals to deal with.

What would you do differently in dealing with these 2 afflictions in a draft horse, say a Clydesdale? What would you do differently with a full blown CPL that you would not do with a pastern dermatitis in a draft horse.

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

Originally Posted by StalknNdaShadows

Last I heard the vet had made amazing progress and was possibly going to have a paper published on a course of treatment that seemed to be working for these horses.

I'd love to see it...but I think it's more than likely gone the way of the "magical" navicular cure cases we've heard about too

Steve