rearing

[Dan Puckett]

With 7 trims, I'd say let the account go, even if you are broke, just starting out, and need the money bad- $2-300 isnt worth getting hurt, IMO.
I do have one client that the horse did well (owner wasnt around) the first time, but the horse reared up (motormouth woman, not paying attention to the horse) when I went for the first reset. Fiancee was with me, and I insisted that she hold the horse. Horse reared once with her, but I managed to get the shoes nailed on. Went for 2nd reset, and no one else was around at the minute I got the horse out, so I tied her to the rear bucket of the backhoe. Horse lunged back once, rope held tight, and she never offered to do it again. It was just a case of a spoiled brat.

A few months ago, I started a "5 minute rule". If I dont make any progress on the horse in 5 minutes, I put the horse away and move on. I explain to the people that I do not train horses, but I'm willing to work with one that has had some bad experiences, is new to trimming, etc, but it wont be free, and I have my limits. I've probably lost a few accounts, but I dont want accounts like that anyway.
Dan

[ray tyron]

1st a farrier is a trainer, anyone handling a horse is teaching it something,good or bad. raring is sometimes cosed by pain and sometimes the horse lerns thats a good way to get there wayand get rid of a farrier if its not pain(are thay sore after a trim?) try tieing a front leg up and work to the side of them (not under them) most of the time they figer out that ther not winning and lern to stand still. my mentor wold take them under a low barn roof ,it worked but was hard on there head . just be carfel and take your time and youll get threw it. we all half to take the bad poneys with the good but if the owner wont let you do it in a way you feel safe walk away

[Phil Armitage]

Originally Posted by ray tyron

1st a farrier is a trainer, anyone handling a horse is teaching it something,good or bad. raring is sometimes cosed by pain and sometimes the horse lerns thats a good way to get there wayand get rid of a farrier if its not pain(are thay sore after a trim?) try tieing a front leg up and work to the side of them (not under them) most of the time they figer out that ther not winning and lern to stand still. my mentor wold take them under a low barn roof ,it worked but was hard on there head . just be carfel and take your time and youll get threw it. we all half to take the bad poneys with the good but if the owner wont let you do it in a way you feel safe walk away

Well said and solid advice Ray, I agree. Just want to add that sometimes we are the ones hurting them in the shoulder, knee, hock, stifle or back because of the posistion we are in or how we ask for and pickup the foot. Definitely not a wise thing thinking we can do no wrong and it is always the horse and horse owner or a training issue. Been there done that. When did I realize it? As I gained more experience and knowledge and horses that I thought misbehaved all of sudden behaved, because I made the changes when I realised I was the problem or they had a problem.

Got to learn how to read horses, see lameness, vices and what is going on around us.

[beslagsmed]

Originally Posted by ray tyron

1st a farrier is a trainer, anyone handling a horse is teaching it something,good or bad. raring is sometimes cosed by pain and sometimes the horse lerns thats a good way to get there wayand get rid of a farrier if its not pain(are thay sore after a trim?) try tieing a front leg up and work to the side of them (not under them) most of the time they figer out that ther not winning and lern to stand still. my mentor wold take them under a low barn roof ,it worked but was hard on there head . just be carfel and take your time and youll get threw it. we all half to take the bad poneys with the good but if the owner wont let you do it in a way you feel safe walk away

In a sense you are right, anytime you feed, turn out, bring in, water, what ever the horse is learning something from you, but farriers are not "TRAINERS" - unless you advertise you train horses. I tell people I'm not there to train their horse, but they can order a time for me to train their horse and pay. My hourly rate is what I take for 4 shoes. Most think that is a little much for hourly rate - I don't think so. Remember if you are going to "train" - CHARGE.

[Gary Hill]

Actually, every time you are working on a horse and you keep it on a regular schedule where you see and work on said horse about 8 times ayear, you are in a sence training the horse to work with you. As a Farrier you will most likely get the horse comfortable first, then get yourself into a position to work on the horse safely. They have longer memories that some people think. You know the type that says the horse will forget in 3minutes, if you don't correct it. Bunny Hugger BS. If you keep the horse lower, usually they will not rear or act as bad. JME

[ray tyron]

ahh men, the old timer that drafted me into the horse bissnes told me that if i was doing it right. most of my clients horses would get better the more i did them, some would stay the same. but if they started geting worse. stand in front of the bathroom sink and look up youll probobly see what the problom is.One book i read on shoeing suggested that if all your clients horses ran away when your truck came up the drive way.you might think of changing carears. Please fergive my spelling i get kicked in the head for a living .

[Tallisman1968]

Hi guys,

Would like to add my 2cents to this if that is ok as my job for 20years has been working and starting horses.

There has been some very good advice on here, and I think the best advice is that no horse is worth an injury from a bad horse. The $ for trimming 7 horses every 6 weeks can be easily lost if you can't shoe at all for 6weeks through injury, or worse.

The horses:
There are a couple of things to keep in mind if you want to keep dealing these horses though.

The harder you push or pull, the harder the horse will pull or push.

Also, the more often they wrench their legs away from you the stronger the habit can be reinforced. So if they continue to get away with what they are doing, the habit could get worse.

And, sometimes things can get worse before they start to get better. The horse has leant to win, he may not give up so easy now.

I am not telling you this to scare you, just saying that these things should be taken into consideration when deciding to continue with these horses.

I, like everyone on here I am sure, have horses that I sigh with relief when they are finished and I have all your fingers and toes. It goes with the job unfortunately, to a degree anyway. I have walked away from plenty of horse over the years telling the owner I will reeducate the horse or shoe it, but not at the same time.

Rearing can be very easily fixed from on the ground, so if the guy says he is a trainer, he sure isn't a very good one.

Example of how a bad habit can form, which you may be able to relate to the habits these horses have,

A few years ago I did a float load job. The horse would not go on the float without rearing and when it did, it would rear up coming out. It was that bad they actually put a helmet attached to the head collar on its head as it regularly drew blood (so hitting its head did not stop it).

One of the problems of float loading comes from people trying to pull the horse in by the lead rope. The harder they pull, the more the horse resists and the head starts to go up. Of course the horse usually wins the tug of war and it has learnt how to win. The start of the habit!

Then, the more you try to get the horse into the float, the more it pulls its head up (possibly hitting its head) and then you stop and the horse has won again. The habit is reinforced!

So my suggestions would be,
a) to try to not put pressure on the hind legs i.e. don't pull them out the back of the horse at all, almost keep the hoof at a point directly above where the hoof would be if it was on the ground. This gives the horse nothing to pull against, as he is already at the forward position. This will also keep you much safer, as it is imperative to keep forward of the hip with these type of horses.

b) Instead of trying to hold the limb tight as the horse pulls, try to go with it and don't resist, but keep hold of the limb. If they feel less pressure against they may use less force.

c) Take some time to do this without your tools etc i.e. before you start trimming. The you will be more ready for the horse to pull its leg away and you can more easily go with it. And definitely charge the owner for the extra time you spend reeducating his horses!

Not sure if this makes sense to you, but am happy to discuss this further if it doesn't. Hope all goes well for you.

The rest of the story is irrelevant, but I included it as it has quite a funny end for anyone interested in reading. Has nothin to do with this discussion though.

Anyway, I spent a couple of weeks reeducating this horse by driving it forward and back into and off the float (so there was nothing to pull against) and everywhere else for that matter, keeping in mind float loading is generally measured in minutes and hours, not days and weeks, but this horse was a bad one.

I was going well, but every now and then she would revert to the head up and that would set us back a few steps. The owner had decided she did not want to pay for any more education and said the mare had given her so much grief and cost her so much money over the years that she was going to dogg her and put more time into her young horses, so drastic times were needed.

I spoke to a good friend (Mick Thomas) about the horse, he was an old bushy, who told me to bring the horse to him. Long story short (too late) he fixed her.

When asked how, he told me he backed the float up to his damn (the deep end) and dropped the tailgate, as she ran out she fell backwards into the damn. After doing that 3 times, she refused to come out unless she was watching where she was going.

Anyway, I got paid, nobody got hurt, the woman was happy and thankfully I have no idea what happened after that as I never saw the horse again.

[Red Amor]

Kick em in the arse send them away
then
start work on the horse in peace n quiet

[Red Amor]

yarn like that I heard was how olmate backed float out on the end of a jetty about 15 or 20 feet above water
did it once , alls well yeah