Advice Needed...Pic's included.

[freestyle]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/freestyle/LeftFrontbump2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/freestyle/LeftFront.jpg
I need some help from all the trusted hoof guru's on this board...I'll try and be breif, but informative.

Here is some history:
17.1 hand 3/4 TB, 1/4 Hann., coming 11 years - used primarily for dressage, but started over fences. Diagnosed with navicular in his left front in November 2004.

After the diagnosis, the farrier put bar shoes plus a rim pad that started at the towe and extended 1/2 way on the foot...no wedge. The horse was reasonably sound with this type of shoeing (with the help of 1/2 gram of bute a day). The horse was ridden extensively throughout the winter, dressage, and small courses.

March 2005 - the hars was becoming more and more lame, more to the right than left. The owner of the horse had another farrier look at the horse and he noticed 1/4 cracks on both fronts, he blamed the rim pad that was being used on the horse (no support in the back part of the hoof).

The owner had another farrier shoe the horse, he floated the cracks and just used bar shoes. The horse went sound for a couple of weeks (light work, soft footing), then lame again. We had the farrier come back and he used the hoof testers on the horse and felt he may be abcessing near the frog on the left front. We soaked the foot for a couple of weeks, and the horse showed no improvement. By that time, the horse was due for shoes. The farrier put the pour in pad with the wire mesh. Right around that time, I noticed the "bump" on the inside of the left front. The farrier used the testers on the area around the bump and got no response.

Ok, so after this shoeing the horse was still lame, but bute helped wonders...1gram a day. He was still a bit off to the right, but after a couple of canter laps he works out of it. But we are still baffled. We had the vet down last week, and he couldn't do much with the hoof testers because of the pad, but he did tap the hoof around the 1/4 cracks and the bump...no response. He didn't feel a block would do any good considering the navicular.

The horse is now on 1 gram of bute am, and arthriease (buffered asprin) and going quite well, I've been hacking him and he's good to start left, and needs to work out of the "offness" I feel to the right...but he does, and he feels good.

The farrier is due to come on Sunday, and he has been in touch with the vet...the vet felt the horse could use some help in the heels with a wedge or a special aluminum shoe.

But, again, without the bute the horse is lame. Looking at the pic's, do you feel this is something that is making this horse dead lame?? Should I continue riding him...on the bute??

Any help or advice in this situation would be appreciated...we are frustrated with this whole situation...

[calshoer]

The pictures are not much help because they do not show the sides, or the sole and are taken a bit tipped at an angle to the ground . Therefore I cannot really see if the foot has breakover, heel, or medial lateral balance issues. For accurate hoof pics from the front and sides the camera should be ON the ground, so the picture is taken exactly parallel to the ground, pointing at the foot.
However, given the flare and dish I see in the cracked side, I seriously suspect medial lateral balance issues at the very least. The Vet should be supplying your farrier with a good set of Xrays for foot balance to help him get his horse balanced INTERNALLY..
Forget using a Tsquare or sight to try to make the bottom of the foot at a right angle to the leg , if that is what he is doing. The horse may not be BUILT that way. Use Xrays if possible, or trim to the live sole plane if no X-rays.
RARELY would a horse need more heel height, even with navicular . Usually the problem is they have far too much heel already, which results in a lack of frog function, bruised heels, a toe that gets run too far forward from its relationship with the coffin bone, which results in abnormal stress on the coffin joint, impar ligament and navicular bone.
Part of the fix is to get rid of the heels, move the breakover BACK under the foot where it belongs and sometimes add varying amounts of frog support to align and support the coffin bone. And ease breakover all around the foot, not just the toe. Frankly I am surprised your farrier hasn't already at LEAST rockered the toe of the shoe. That is part of standard practice for treating navicular.
You wouldn't believe how many 'broken back' coffin joints get aligned better simply by REMOVING all heel thay extends beyond the sole ,leaving ALL the frog, so the frog is supported by the ground, and bringing the breakover point back.
Also easing breakover ALL around the foot is always helpful in navicular cases. A half round shoe, a St Croix eventer ,or similar shoe that has a rolled edge all around should be used here, rather than a flat shoe.That eases strain in the all the connective structures and the coffin joint in the turns.

If you can get some better pictures it would help. (and make them a little smaller they will be easier to see) . Patty

[freestyle]

Thanks Patty -
I'm new here and had a heck of a time posting the pics...but I will get better ones tonight and post them.

The first time this new farrier shod the horse, he did roll his toe. And I was surprised that he didn't at least set the shoe back a tad...I only assumed that it was because of these pads he used?

I appreciate your input, and will get better pictures tonight and post them tonight.

thanks again!
k.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=freestyle]>Here is some history:
17.1 hand 3/4 TB, 1/4 Hann., coming 11 years - used primarily for dressage, but started over fences. Diagnosed with navicular in his left front in November 2004.

Diagnosed how?

>After the diagnosis, the farrier put bar shoes plus a rim pad that started at the towe and extended 1/2 way on the foot...no wedge. The horse was reasonably sound with this type of shoeing (with the help of 1/2 gram of bute a day).


No, the horse was demonstrably unsound and the continued riding probably exacerbated the problem. Further, since NS is , in most cases, bi-lateral, it is quite possible the the Dx was incorrect and the real problem neither discovered or treated.

The horse was ridden extensively throughout the winter, dressage, and small courses.

Again, the horse was not sound but was continued in work, so the issues manifested but were masked by the medication. And, Why would anyone in their right mind work a horse that had been diagnosed with NS and required bute, over fences?

>March 2005 - the hars was becoming more and more lame, more to the right than left. The owner of the horse had another farrier look at the horse and he noticed 1/4 cracks on both fronts, he blamed the rim pad that was being used on the horse (no support in the back part of the hoof).

It wasn't just the rim pads that were responsible for the 1/4 cracks. Not trimming the horse for correct balance , working a lame horse, not supporting the caudal structures of the hoof, etc., all were players in this drama.

>The owner had another farrier shoe the horse, he floated the cracks and just used bar shoes. The horse went sound for a couple of weeks (light work, soft footing), then lame again.

If no mechanical support of the frog, bars, sulci, and sole, behind the apex of the frog ,was instituted, then I can well imagine that the horse got sore/lame again.

>We had the farrier come back and he used the hoof testers on the horse and felt he may be abcessing near the frog on the left front.

Farriers should not be diagnosing hoof pathologies. I know we all , to one degree or another do it, but it is well beyond our purview and should be left to a competent veterinarian.

> We soaked the foot for a couple of weeks, and the horse showed no improvement. By that time, the horse was due for shoes. The farrier put the pour in pad with the wire mesh. Right around that time, I noticed the "bump" on the inside of the left front. The farrier used the testers on the area around the bump and got no response.

Doesn't mean that there was nothing going on. In fact, just looking at the foot, the farrier should have known there was something going on and then, from a farrier perspective, figured out what that something was, and started dealing with it.

>Ok, so after this shoeing the horse was still lame, but bute helped wonders...1gram a day. He was still a bit off to the right, but after a couple of canter laps he works out of it. But we are still baffled.

Why would you be baffled? You continue to ride a lame horse. Giving the horse bute, now at twice the previous doseage, should have been one of your first clues that something was still majorily wrong. This horse needs a full lameness evaluation by a qualified veterinarian, and then a treatment protocol initiated that will finally start this horse on the road to recovery.

>We had the vet down last week, and he couldn't do much with the hoof testers because of the pad, but he did tap the hoof around the 1/4 cracks and the bump...no response. He didn't feel a block would do any good considering the navicular.

What ever happened to the concept of removing the shoes to do a lameness exam? And, since, according to you the navicular issue was diagnosed in the LEFT front, why would the vet not block the right front if s/he indeed felt the problem was in that foot? Further, tapping around on quarter cracks does not always or even usually elicit a pain response(unless the cracks are bleeding, and in that case, why bother tapping on them at all?)

While this horse may have other issues in his feet, right now, the ongoing quarter crack saga is enough to be causing him lameness and until you get that issue resolved, you will not be able to determine what else may or may not be bothering him.

>The horse is now on 1 gram of bute am, and arthriease (buffered asprin) and going quite well, I've been hacking him and he's good to start left, and needs to work out of the "offness" I feel to the right...but he does, and he feels good.

You are still missing the point. This horse is LAME!!!!! You have now upped the medicine ante even more. And yet you continue to ignore what the horse is telling you. Bless him for being so cooperative and willing under the current circ*mstances. Were it me, I'd dump your butt and stomp on you just a little bit just to get your undivided attention. And, I wouldn't let you get back on and ride me until the problem(s) were resolved.

>The farrier is due to come on Sunday, and he has been in touch with the vet...the vet felt the horse could use some help in the heels with a wedge or a special aluminum shoe.

Oh good. The vet, who for some reason has failed to see the imbalances that exist in the feet, who has not performed what IMNTBCHO is a competent lameness workup, is now going to prescribe a shoeing protocol that has little to no chance of long term success unless the underlying issues are first taken care of. And, based on the information provided thus far, along with this whiz bang shoeing protocol, you are going to continue to medicate and then ride this horse, and then wonder why things continue to go from bad to worse. Good Plan!

>But, again, without the bute the horse is lame.

Image that. Who'd a thunk it!

>Looking at the pic's, do you feel this is something that is making this horse dead lame??

Quite probably.

>Should I continue riding him...on the bute??

Ummmmmmmmmmm, NO! And, incase I was not clear enough, HELL NO!!!

>Any help or advice in this situation would be appreciated

See above.

>...we are frustrated with this whole situation...

If you think you are frustrated, think how the horse must feel.

Rick

[caballus]

Thank you, Rick, for articulating my same sentiments so clearly. The horse is not a car that has a dent in it ... it is a living, breathing, HURTING animal that needs apt consideration and attention.

I will second the blessing on that horse for NOT hurting you, freestyle, in some manner. Many would not be so generous.

Find a competent veterinarian and then a hoofcare person who can balance and get this horse trimmed up properly; with or without shoes.

-- Gwen

[freestyle]

Rick - Thank you for your opinion...and I am new to this board and to the different personalities here. I came here looking for advice and some thoughts...your's were taken. Ok, so I am doing something wrong here...I'm hoping your tone is just your personality...perhaps you could add some useful advice on what to do with this situation?

Furthermore, this horse went through an extensive lameness exam when he first came up lame in October...the xray's that were taken of his left foot confirmed the Navicular. As well as xrays that were taken 2 years prior during the pre-purchase exam done on this horse, that the vet that performed the PPE "over-looked". From what the vet says, it's not severe, just a couple of small lesions.

Call me ******, but I really didn't think that after the horse was shod with bars, and pads, that 1/2 a gram of bute once a day for a 17.1 horse would "mask" this condition...only help. Which it did. I would never ride and continue to ride a lame horse...never. You quote me, but you neglect to quote me on the fact that the horse "works out of the offness after a couple of canter laps" and "feels good".

The farrier that we have now, is working closely with the vet that performed the lameness exam and did the xrays...AND, I am not the owner of this horse...I can only make suggestions...

Which has what has lead me to this board, and the wealth of knowledge that is here...I did not expect to be blasted when asking for advice from professionals like yourself. And, I did not feel that the small amount of bute could create more issues for this horse...the horse was doing well until the 1/4 cracks, which by the way, from what I've been told are primarily "cosmetic"...again, I'm not the owner.

Again, thanks for your opinion...I'll be going now, and will be sure to shut the door (and pad lock it) on the way out...

Have a nice day.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=freestyle]
>Rick - Thank you for your opinion...and I am new to this board and to the different personalities here. I came here looking for advice and some thoughts...your's were taken. Ok, so I am doing something wrong here...

Yep. You continue to ride a horse that has been medicated to mask pain and give a false positive for soundness.


>I'm hoping your tone is just your personality...

As most everyone will tell you, it is, and I make no apologies for it.

>perhaps you could add some useful advice on what to do with this situation?

It seems to me that I have done that. To wit: stop riding a lame horse; don't put a navicular horse over fences; find the underlying cause(s) of the lameness and fix it/them; Address the obvious M/L imbalance in the hooves; find a farrier who recognizes what is wrong with the balance of the feet, has the knowledge, skill and ability to trim and/or shoe the horse to restore soundness; find a vet who posesses the same or greater level of knowledge, etc., etc., etc.

>Furthermore, this horse went through an extensive lameness exam when he first came up lame in October...the xray's that were taken of his left foot confirmed the Navicular.

Radiographs are the LEAST conclusive way to diagnose navicular syndrome/disease.

As well as xrays that were taken 2 years prior during the pre-purchase exam done on this horse, that the vet that performed the PPE "over-looked".

What did the original radiographs purport to show? In what way did the vet overlook these radiographs?


>From what the vet says, it's not severe, just a couple of small lesions.

Lesions in and of themselves are not indicative of NS/D. There are horses with big lesions that have no lameness issues and horses that are lesion -free
that are completely unsound(lame)

>Call me ******, but I really didn't think that after the horse was shod with bars, and pads, that 1/2 a gram of bute once a day for a 17.1 horse would "mask" this condition...only help. Which it did.

Sorry, but the bute obviously did not help the situation, it merely and demonstrably masked it. Palliating the pain is not the same as remediation of the cause(s).

>I would never ride and continue to ride a lame horse...never.

Again, Sorry, but your own statements prove otherwise.

>You quote me, but you neglect to quote me on the fact that the horse "works out of the offness after a couple of canter laps" and "feels good".

Regardless, he is still lame and riding him, and especially, riding him over fences is doing nothing to help him get better. In point of fact, quite the opposite is happening. Again, as evidenced by the increased amounts and types of medications now needed to get this horse to work. And, "feels good" is not a diagnosis. "feels good", compared to what"? This horse when he is really sore and lame, or a truely sound horse that is working under saddle? And, how do you know?

You also said in your original post, and I quote: "Without the bute, the horse is lame...."

Next, in your reply to me, you said, and I quote: "I would never ride and continue to ride a lame horse....never"

Now, I submit that these two statememts are in diametric opposition and form a rather perverse version of an oxy*****.

>The farrier that we have now, is working closely with the vet that performed the lameness exam and did the xrays...

This is the farrier who can't see the obvious imbalances in the feet, right?
This is the farrier who fit a shoe and according to the photos presented, dubbed the toe, right?
This is the farrier who, apparently, has not added the mechanical support to the bottom of the foot that is necessary to enable the foot to begin to settle, stabilize and heal, right?

This is the vet who didn't see the obvious imbalances in the feet, right?
This is the vet who has , according to you, come up with some Whiz-Bang shoeing protocol, but really doesn't have a clue as to what's going on. right?

Good Plan!!!

>AND, I am not the owner of this horse...I can only make suggestions...

Well, you posted so you get to reap the benefits.

>Which has what has lead me to this board, and the wealth of knowledge that is here...I did not expect to be blasted when asking for advice from professionals like yourself.

Well, especially when it comes to horses, I used to suffer foolishness just a little bit, now I suffer it not at all.

And, you got good advise. From Patty and from me. That you don't like the messenger's style, does not in one iota, change the message.

>And, I did not feel that the small amount of bute could create more issues for this horse...

Your feelings not withstanding, you need to work from a basis of facts. And, beyond that, your feelings have , by the horse, repeatedly been shown to be erroneous.

>the horse was doing well until the 1/4 cracks, which by the way, from what I've been told are primarily "cosmetic"...

Who ever told you this, in light of the photos provided, has just sent my BS detector needle clear off the scale. There is nothing cosmetic about the crack in the picture. At a bare minimum, it is the flashing red light that something is terribly amiss in the foot. That there are more 1/4 cracks manifesting, should have sent your , the owner's and the vet's alarm bells clanging.

And, think about what you just told us: "The horse was doing well until the 1/4 cracks, which by the way, from what I've been told are primarily "cosmetic".... ".

So, if the 1/4 cracks were merely cosmetic, why did the horse go lame/get worse just after they appeared?.

The human head and its contents are supposed to be used for more than just a hat rack.

>again, I'm not the owner.

Well, you are riding the horse. You bear some of the responsibility for what has happened.

>Again, thanks for your opinion...I'll be going now, and will be sure to shut the door (and pad lock it) on the way out...

Too bad for the horse that you got your undies all wadded up. If you came here looking for hugs and warm fuzzies, you came to the wrong place. If you came here for truth, honesty and information, then stick around and maybe you will learn enough to be of more value to this horse and others, than merely being the one styling and profiling around the ring on his/their back(s).

>Have a nice day.

Every day I help a horse is , by definition, a nice day.

Rick

[Red Amor]

Freestyle
Mate you have some of the worlds leading Farriers and Vets viewing these forums and giving greatly considered advise free of charge

also this same advise would be available on a personal basis if you chose to contect one if them directly , and from many free over the net or phone

Its a shame you cant see where you the Vet and Farriers went wrong , to continually work this rechard creature

Ok you came in with your guard down and you got read the riot act and your feelings hurt
BUT DONT go away with and attitude and miss the oppertunity to get the help you realy need to help THE MOST IMPORTANT IDENTITY IN THIS ACCQUASION
THE HORSE whos welfare is greater that any of our egos

Please come back to the table , enjoy your meal even if you dont like your greens :) we are a friends here in the long run and greens make you strong :)

[Phil Armitage]

Very well said Rick, shame some people can't take the truth. Oh well. You tried.

[Greg Thomas]

Since Freestyle shut and locked the door:

I might see what ya'll are talking about when you say you can't give a customer what they ask for.

I bet freestyle has directed the vet and farrier on the handling of this problem and they are telling him what he/she wants to hear(probably owes both of the a sizeable overdue bill). Surely you can not find 3 people, knowledgeable of horses, that could not know that there are serious mistakes being made on this horse's feet-and has been for a good while. Heck, even someone that knows nothing of horses could tell there was something wrong. I guess that freestyle already knew that this horse will need a year of rehab before being useable again-and it is his/her own dang fault.

Wonder what line of krap freestyle is feeding the horse's owner?

Freestyle does need to know that Bute is a pain killer-not Walt Disney magic dust-duhhh.

Someone real smart once said-You can't argue with fools-they'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Greg

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Greg Thomas]

>Surely you can not find 3 people, knowledgeable of horses, that could not know that there are serious mistakes being made on this horse's feet-and has been for a good while.

Greg: I don't know how long you have been providing your services to the public, but in my 30+ years , I have found what you think is unimaginable to happen over and over again.

>Heck, even someone that knows nothing of horses could tell there was something wrong.

Just as there are some who can hear but not listen, there are those who can look but not see.

>You can't argue with fools-they'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

I like that adage. I really like that adage! May I co-opt it and use it even if I occasionally forget to give you credit for it?

Rick

[Greg Thomas]

[QUOTE=Rick May I co-opt it and use it even if I occasionally forget to give you credit for it?

Rick[/QUOTE]

Use it all you want-It ain't my original thought-

I ain't smart enuff to come up with wisdom like that. I feel like it was a Mark Twain quote but I am not sure.

Greg

[freestyle]

ok, what the heck...I'll add more gas to the fire...please read and kindly don't add your own assumptions...if there is a question, kindly ask me to clarify and I'll be more than happy to answer.

Since this horse was diagnosed with navicular in the fall, I’ve been reading quite a bit, and asking a bunch of questions. I’ve read about natural balance shoes, barefoot trim, isoxuprine, shock wave therapy, tildren, and anything else I can find on the web. I came to this board about 5 months ago and have read the numerous questions and replies from the knowledgeable farriers…I am trying to find out as much information as possible. And no, I am not lying about the fact that I don’t own this horse, I don’t. All I can do in this situation is compile information, and pass it along to the owner… I do own a horse that unfortunately had to be retired 2 years ago due to kissing spine (which btw, I spent over $1000 at Tufts being diagnosed and treated), he’s 21…I’ve owned him since he was a 2 year old OTTB. He’s had numerous ailments, but not navicular…so, this is new to me. I should not have to defend myself…and I should be able to ask questions without being lambasted.

I came on this board to ask advice, and didn’t realize that a certain farrier was in a bad mood…and now this has turned into a public stoning. I’m being called a liar, irresponsible, and basically ******. If that were the case, why did I come here in the first place?

I may be supplying more fuel to the fire, but here goes.

As I have stated, I do not own this horse. I started riding this horse last September. I was looking for a horse to stay in shape for a competition and a friend that runs a barn suggested that I ride this horse…the owner was not riding him. When I started riding him he was sound, he was used only for dressage and I just flatted him to stay in shape. (I was leasing another horse that I could only ride twice a week). By the beginning of Nov. I noticed he was having on and off days. I would rest him, but decided to have the owner get the vet up to do a lameness exam. I was not present at this exam, the owner called and told me it was Navicular, they had the films sent to the vet from the ppe and the vet said the lesions were there at the time of ppe 2 years prior. The vet did not give the owner a “plan of action” so to speak, but told the owner to call the farrier. She did and the farrier that she was using at the time, said “he’s doesn’t have navicular, he’s just heel sore” and shod him with the toe pad and bars. We rested the horse for another 2 weeks and then tried him. (ok, flame retardant suit on here) He was drastically improved, but still not 100%, about 95% sound, just a tad short to the right. Owner called the vet and he suggested ½ gram of bute & adequan. I did ask the owner to inquire about isox, but the vet said it doesn’t work.

We started the horse on the adequan, and the ½ gram of bute and slowly put him back to work. He was at a barn with an indoor with leather footing. He was doing well, no signs of shortness at all. After about a month of no lameness, I started working him over fences. Small x rails, and small verticals…he is green over fences. He went well all winter with no issues at all.

The end of March we moved him to another barn. The barn he was at had limited turn out and no outdoor ring. We felt the horse would do wonders at the new place being turned out all day and the soft footing in the outdoor ring. The owner tried to get an appt for the horse to be shod, and needless to say, he went over 2 weeks overdue. I did not ride him at this time. The farrier that the owner was using was too busy and wanted to send someone else; I felt he was trying to put this horse off onto someone else less qualified. The owner had one of the farriers at the new barn look at the horse, and he found the ¼ cracks, but he wasn’t taking on any new clients. So, I convinced the owner to try my farrier. He came immediately and did the horse. He “highly suggested” that the owner let him put pads on the horse to support the foot, but the owner doesn’t “like” pads and he did not put them on, he floated the hoof at the cracks and put bars on him. I let the horse rest for a few days after the new shoeing and then started riding him again (no bute…nothing) the horse was sound for 2 weeks. NOTE: I TOOK THE HORSE TO A HORSE SHOW MARCH 20TH, WHICH IS THE LAST TIME I JUMPED THE HORSE. Then after the 2 weeks of soundness, he was considerably lame, I DID NOT RIDE HIM AT THIS POINT. The farrier came and found they he may have an abscess brewing at the upper part of the frog on the left foot. We soaked the foot and applied iodine to dry it up for 1 week. NO BUTE, and then trotted him (on a lead), still lame. Kept soaking, for another week, trotted him (on a lead - NO BUTE), still lame. Called the farrier and he came right away, he discussed the horses situation with the vet (I did not speak to him directly, the owner did, I don’t know if the farrier went to the vets office to see the x-rays). The farrier suggested putting the pour in pads on the horse, the owner agreed. The horse was shod, but this time without the rolled toe. Again, I was not present during this shoeing, so I don’t know why he did not roll the toe. After this shoeing, the horse rested for a couple of days, and I tried him again…still “off” but not as bad. I rested him a couple more days, and tried again…better, but still the unevenness to the right and he didn’t work out of it...AGAIN NO BUTE.

The vet was coming for x-rays for another horse at the barn and he looked at him and said he felt the horses heels were under run and could use some help of a pad, or special shoe, he also wanted the farrier to dremel the ¼ cracks. The owner relayed this information to the farrier and the farrier said he would get in touch with the vet…the farrier is scheduled to come on Sunday the 19th. The vet also said that 1 gram of bute would not hurt him, so we started with 1 a gram and 500 mg of arthriease (recommended is 2000mg per day), the horse did well, so we lowered the dose of bute to ½ in the am…he was a tad uneven to the right, but worked out of it.

Note here, I noticed the bump on the hoof and brought it to the attention of the vet and farrier; they were not concerned by it. When the farrier comes Sunday, I will be there and will bring it to his attention again…

1) I have not jumped this horse since March 20th.
2) This new farrier has been working with this horse since mid April, he has been trying to fix the damage done by the previous farrier. He has also been in contact with the vet…which btw, has not seen the horse since the initial diagnosis except for 2 weeks ago. Yes, there is a balance issue, but according to Calshoer, you can’t tell by the picture I posted the angle of the foot…what is this farrier doing wrong?
3) I have been reading that Navicular is a circulatory problem in the foot, (flame suit zipped all the way up) and once you get the circulation going (warmed up) the horse should work out of the offness…correct me if I’m wrong please.
4) If you can’t diagnose Navicular from x-rays, how do you get a correct diagnosis?

No, Greg, I don't owe this vet a penny. And no, I do not have the owner wrapped around my finger...she is being "conservative", a bit too conservative in my opinion...I would be demanding answers. And no again Greg, I don't beleive that bute is "disney dust" or whatever you call it...the vet recommended it...period. I'm not sticking him with needles, or loading him with injections...1/2 a gram of bute for a 17.1 horse. Do you Greg take ibuprophen if you get sore from a hard day of shoeing? Or do you run to the hospital for a complete medical work up? I have carpal tunnel and take motrin to ease the pain of it...am I masking my "injury", no.

Now, if we can get past all the sarcasm, speculation, name calling, and assumptions, perhaps someone may have some good advice I can relay to the farrier when he comes on Sunday.

Thank you in advance...

[Greg Thomas]

I wouldn't have said that to you. I thought you were gone. I am a low life. I felt guilty for almost 2.548 seconds. My support group is letting me down.
------------
Without enough pictures to really tell-adding to my assumptions-

The whole hoof is distorted from the cornary band down by poor trimming/shoeing for several months. (Conservative is not the same as keeping on doing as before)The crack is not what I would normally refer to as a quarter crack but I guess technically that is what it is. It looks dangerous to me.

Fire your vet -everything is "navicular". Stay off the horse for 1 year.

If the horse has any frog then pull the shoes, trim the entire bottom of the hoof until it is bleeding(well maybe not quite that short), make the opposite hoof match and turn the horse out. Keep it trimmed super short for at least 8 months

If no frog then trim as short as possible and use a half round shoe with pad and packing to support the frog and expand the hoof-no rear nails. Then match the other hoof to it. As soon a the frog is near the ground then trim short and turn out barefooted.

Keep the foot soft and flexable-olive oil 2 or 3 times a week will do.

Either way the wall must expand or the insides is gonna be on the outsides.

use Reducine to cut the times in half

throw the Bute away

A farrier that will come on Sunday is probably not the one you need

There are people on here that know more than me about this problem.

Greg

[freestyle]

Thank you Greg, for your response...I will ask agian though, if x-rays are the only thing that this vet is using, what else can we do to confirm or not confirm this diagnosis?

I am going to post a couple of more pics, they are not what Calshoer asked me for, I have not been to the barn to get new and better ones, but these show more from the side.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/freestyle/Leftfrontoutside.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/freestyle/LeftBump3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/freestyle/Leftback.jpg

I don't know if these are any better...I can get some tomorrow, but these I have on file, they are from a couple of days ago.

BTW, Greg...(I took the liberty to check out your profile) we are in the same business...I've worked in printing for 20+ years :rolleyes: ...nice to meet cha!

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Anybody noticed the frog-rot in that foot ? How deep in the central sulcus will a hoof pick go?

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=894&stc=1

See the red arrow.

If you loose an inch of hoof pick it there it's because it's been eaten away. Be carefull when you try, the horse might not like it being picked out. Yes it absolutely will make a horse lame (so will the quarter crack).

[freestyle]

Roy - Please explain...in laymen's terms.

[Gary Hill]

The pads are in the way of seeing anything under them. To me the appearance of a navicular foot, this one doesn't seem too bad compared to the ones I see. I still think as they have all said, your going to need lots of x-rays of these feet to compare and look for the problem he's having. Yes, warming up a navicular horse does help them to move better because you have the blood flowing more. Once you stop and cool down properly, does he go and stick his foot forward to get off his heels? Does he dig holes in his stall and stand in the depression with the toes dug in the ground? Lots of little things to look for ,will help to understand how his feet feel. Good Luck! Gary

[freestyle]

Gary, yes he does point sometimes...but not always. He will if he's been standing in his stall. When we were at the other place and he only got out for an hour a day, he would when I brought him out, but didn't after I rode. I have noticed when he's getting up to 4 weeks + in the shoes, he does point more. His stall is matted and was at the other place, so as far as holes, no, haven't noticed anything like that. Someone mentioned to me about iceing his feet? Would this help?

Roy thanks for the explanation, I will check that tomorrow when I go. And I will be careful...what can be done for that? I hate to sound ****, but is it something similar to thrush?

[Gary Hill]

Those pads help promote thrush, the foot needs to breath. Proper breakover will help this guy out alot. Either roll the toe or rocker it. The heels look alittle too long but with the pad, I can't tell? Good Luck Again! Gary

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Roy thanks for the explanation, I will check that tomorrow when I go. And I will be careful...what can be done for that? I hate to sound ****, but is it something similar to thrush?

It is thrush. Whever you do don't go squirting coppertox, iodine, bleach, thrushbuster or any other caustic chemicals in there.

I know everybody has an opinion but I don't think it's real fair to slag this shoeing job here. The pictures I've seen so far leave me pretty short on information. I haven't seen the bottom of the foot and the bare trimmed frog or any of the limb above it or a lateral view of the foot itself. We haven't seen the X-rays that have been taken or heard anything first hand from the vet. This obviously isn't a healthy foot but I don't have enough information to have a plan yet.

Seeing pictures is never as good as being there in person to see it with you're eyes and feel it in you're hands.

Try and be fair - you could be next.

[calshoer]

I do see some things that I need to comment on because this is an example of a pretty darn good traditional shoeing job, nice and neat, perimeter fit, clips, bar, pads etc. The problem is that a good traditional shoeing is causing at least some of this horse's problems simply because it IS traditional and is therefore not addresing the foot's needs, and that is the premise I want to comment on. Not on this particular FARRIER, because he did a GREAT job of what he did. Now I hope that is clear. Here I go.

This is a particularly good picture. I marked it up to help clearly illustrate the medial lateral imbalance I suspected from the other views. See how much more hoofwall length there is on the cracked side (from the ground surface to the coronary band) than the other side. That creates More load on the tall side because it is longer, and the uneven load is probably blowing out the wall. AS well if you pulled the shoe and cleaned off the loose dead sole, I suspect the foot is noticeably deeper from the wall to the sole plane on that side too. And BOTH heels appear too tall, contributing to those contracted heels and thrush. This horse may have heel pain independant of the navicular pain. I always remove the excess heel off the foot ,THEN if the horse needs bone angles raised I use wedge pad (s) and varying degrees of frog support to do that. That way the coffin bone angles can be raised to where they might need to be to be the****utic but the whole FOOT can function better.
Patty

[caballus]

I have to comment on the "thrush" as I suspect that its not thrush at all in that split but yeast, instead. (And I used the word, "split", purposely as there shouldn't even BE a "crevice" there ... the central sulcus is not on the back of the hoof between the heels and that area pointed to should be solid.) It could very well be a combination of yeast and thrush, also. Yeast causes pain. If you dig the pick into it and you notice white cheesy looking material you're dealing with yeast. This means that if you treat the hoof for thrush you're going to feed the yeast and cause it to proliferate tremendously. It *will* go deeper into the hoof and cause further problems. It also is a systemic issue. Yeast thrives off sugar so get rid of any sugar in the diet. Soaking the hooves in a mixture of Borax and H20 will kill the yeast along with a mild (2 oz. to 1 gallon of water) spritz of Lysol disenfectant. That will also kill thrush at the same time. However, whatever you do to treat either the thrush or yeast or both is nothing more than a symptomatic treatment and it will come back again unless you treat the cause of it ... the contracted heels and dysfunctioning hoof. What I would do would be to pull the shoes, get the hooves treated properly in terms of a balanced, correct trim with lowering the heels, balancing medially/laterally, get a level solar plane, bring back the toes, rocker the fronts AND roll the walls, treat the yeast/thrush and allow the hooves to breath for a bit. Allow the heels to de-contract and the hoof to begin to function properly again without shoes. It may be a beautiful shoeing job but it's still binding those hooves causing issues. Just looking at that heel makes me cringe and its easy to see why he's sore. Then, after the hooves have become healthy again and the horse is moving out well, I'd consider leaving him either barefoot or looking into a different type of shoe; one that is less restrictive and allows the hooves to function. Perhaps the NB shoe. But I can guarantee you that removing those shoes and getting the hooves back into correct form and function is going to allow the horse to move in a way he's not done in a long, long while and you'll think twice about shoeing him again. Horses *can* (and do everyday all over the world) work barefoot and when taken care of properly, usually excel without the shoes more than with. This guy looks like a pretty fair candidate for that. If for no other reason than to eliminate the navicular pain, thrush/yeast and have him able to move comfortably the way he is intended to move.

:) --Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

I agree on the medial lateral imbalance and signes of thrush or yeast infection. I think there is still a lot of unknowns and all of us can make an argument as to what we would do or not do, but we are not there with the foot in our hands, observing the whole horse or watching this horse move. Good discussion and very informative.

[freestyle]

Gwen -
Interesting read...and something that we (myself and the owner) have been thinking about since all this began.

The owner bought this horse approx 2 years ago. At that time, he was barefoot, and from what she had been told, had been his whole life. He is coming 11. Her trainer at the time convinced her to put shoes on the horse for "traction" (she was going to do eventing). She rode the horse for over a year with shoes (he's 3rd level dressage), competed quite a bit with him in Florida. When she came back from Fl last year in the spring, her work kept her from riding a lot. The horse wasn't ridden until I started riding him in September...

But this whole thing is interesting, and we've thought about "what if" she didn't put shoes on him...I've read that Navicular is "man made", hmmm, makes me think here....

[caballus]

Well, if this is any encouragement to you ... Just this week on Monday, a horse that is here on my farm got a total 100% clean bill of health and soundness. This is remarkable because a year ago, last January, he was scheduled to be euthanized ... a 9 year old Lippizan ... due to "navicular". 4 vets, 2 farriers and an Equine Chiropractor all said there was nothing left to do for this horse. The owner called me in out of total desperation to try the "barefoot" route. Pulled the 2" wedges, trimmed out the hooves, got them de-contracted and cleaned up. After just pulling the front shoes we turned him out in the indoor for a "break" before doing his rears - he responded with a buck, a **** and a gallop around in both directions. So, that was a good start to all this. After trimming him for over a year, now, (he was striding up 100% sound within 4 months of his initial removal of shoes and trim) the owner wanted to make sure this guy was formally pronounced sound to go back into full work. He HAD been scheduled to go with his owner to Portugal for High School training but then he went lame and had been lame for a year 1/2 prior to removing the shoes. Again, everyone told her there was nothing more to do and it would be best to have him put down. So, she made the appointment and arrangements. Thank God she made that last desperant attempt to get him sound cause they make a wonderful "couple" and both are happy as beans to be "working" again! :) So, take that as some encouragement! Hopefully, in the not-too-distant-future, we'll see this pair competing in some hefty Level III stuff and onwards from there!

:) -- Gwen

[freestyle]

Patty and everyone else...

The uneveness that you point out Patty, is this why I'm feeling the offness in the opposite direction. To the right and not the left. Thanks for the diagram, it makes it easy for a laymen like myself to really see the uneveness.

Thanks to everyone for all the good information. I do appreciate it, and I can assure you it will not fall on deaf ears. I am compiling all this information and will go over it with the owner, I am especially interested in the barefoot situation and I know the owner will be too. I will check out the crevice in his heal tonight when I go to the barn and report back on my findings. I will also get better pictures from a level surface.

Again, thank you for all the info...I'm glad I came back, and I'm also glad that people understand the situation and are willing to take the time to offer opinions/suggestions.
k.

[freestyle]

If you loose an inch of hoof pick it there it's because it's been eaten away. Be carefull when you try, the horse might not like it being picked out. Yes it absolutely will make a horse lame (so will the quarter crack).[/QUOTE]

Ok, did the hoof pick. Just the tip went in... 1/4" straight. If I angled it towards the bottom of the foot, it went in further about 3/4". I was afraid to dig too much, but no pain response what-so-ever. And, Gwen, no "cheesy" stuff...nothing, no odor, nothing. :confused: