Navicular caused by aluminum?

[Clint Burrell]

htpp://george-eby.research.com/htm/nav.html

Has anyone seen this or heard of this?Sorry, don't know how to make it so you can just click on it.

Clint Burrell

[Jason Maki]

Having spent quite a bit of time working on WP quarter horses (who ALL wear Al) I'd guess that if the incidence is higher its because the horses are predisposed due to conformation and breeding; they just happen to be wearing AL shoes. Just a guess.
Jason

[calshoer]

Having spent quite a bit of time working on WP quarter horses (who ALL wear Al) I'd guess that if the incidence is higher its because the horses are predisposed due to conformation and breeding; they just happen to be wearing AL shoes. Just a guess.
JasonThe incidence in WP horses is high more likely because they are forced to move in a low headed, short, grossly toe stabbing gait, thereby jamming the distal end of P2 down onto the top of the navicular bone with every toe landing step, that's why.

[Phil Armitage]

The incidence in WP horses is high more likely because they are forced to move in a low headed, short, grossly toe stabbing gait, thereby jamming the distal end of P2 down onto the top of the navicular bone with every toe landing step, that's why.


Huh? Even the ones that are ridden with just a snaffle bit and reins? How would one force a horse to carry themselves like that?

Jason's explanation is partially true, however not all western pleasure are the same breed or wear alum.

One common practice I see in the western pleasure world is leaving too much heel. Common request from trainers around here is "Don't trim the heels!!!!"

[calshoer]

Phil , haven't you watched many western pleasure classes? It is rare to see a horse in one, even a young one in a snaffle that is moving with a decent stride and landing heel first. They make those horses go short, and despite the head carriage rule most of them still go very much on the forehand and downhill in the front end. If you want to know how some of the trainers "force" them to go like that ,then you should hang around more WP trainers and at the shows go watch the warm up ring out back, behind the show ring.
It can get pretty disgusting.Here want to watch something that will make most horsemen nauseous? http://video.google.com/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGIK_enUS272US272&q=Western%20Pleasure&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

[Phil Armitage]

Phil , haven't you watched many western pleasure classes? It is rare to see a horse in one, even a young one in a snaffle that is moving with a decent stride and landing heel first. They make those horses go short, and despite the head carriage rule most of them still go very much on the forehand and downhill in the front end. If you want to know how some of the trainers "force" them to go like that ,then you should hang around more WP trainers and at the shows go watch the warm up ring out back, behind the show ring.
It can get pretty disgusting.Here want to watch something that will make most horsemen nauseous? http://video.google.com/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGIK_enUS272US272&q=Western%20Pleasure&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

LOL Patty.

I have worked for a few WP trainers. Some are excellent trainers some are still figuring it out. Common problem with WP folks is the idea of leaving heel. QH and Paint breeds with small feet compared to body size. I have no problem with loose rein, collection and the head down, no amount of force is going to achieve that. :)

[Clint Burrell]

This was in reference to an article posted on another site. It claimed that aluminum could be absorbed through the feet,thus building up to toxic levels. Supposedly this could lead to surface bone loss,bone softening and soft tissue inflammation. The treatment they claim is Gallium Nitrate, which is supposed to force the aluminum out of the bone and have an anti-inflammatory effect. They also claim steel nails in aluminum shoes, in an acidic environment such as urine could cause a "battery" effect, speeding up the process. One of the cited references is a RJF farrier. I'm neither for/against such a theory, just curious if anyone had heard of this.

Clint Burrell

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
I was half joking, but you'll get no argument from me. Take an up right horse, stack his heels, break his body in half by pushing his hip to the middle , shorten the anterior phase of his stride and push his shoulder into the rail with every stride and what you describe happens.
Phil,
in my experience the fastest way to irk a WP trainer is try to put a steel shoe on the horses front feet.

I do not know if the al can be absorbedor create a battery , but I sure have s****ed my share of green crud off aluminium shoes-- victories seemed to do it the worst, with the Kerk triumphs oxidizing the least. NB alu,inium seems t be somewhere in the middle.
Jason

[JStaples]

htpp://george-eby.research.com/htm/nav.html

Has anyone seen this or heard of this?Sorry, don't know how to make it so you can just click on it.

Clint Burrell

Clint,
Thoroughbred race horses are shod primarily in aluminum and do not show a high incidence of navicuar.

John Staples

[Phil Armitage]

Patty,
I was half joking, but you'll get no argument from me. Take an up right horse, stack his heels, break his body in half by pushing his hip to the middle , shorten the anterior phase of his stride and push his shoulder into the rail with every stride and what you describe happens.


Do you ride Jason?

[IRNWKR_2]

LOL Patty.
I have no problem with loose rein, collection and the head down, no amount of force is going to achieve that. :)

Surely you Jest:eek:The WP Jog Is definitely not considered "collection" and If you dont believe it is force that is used to achieve this you should hang around for a "training session"

[calshoer]

I have no problem with loose rein, collection and the head down, no amount of force is going to achieve that. Phil do you actually think that the posted example of a winning WP horse is "collection?" :eek:
And have you ever watched them *train them* to do that? I have. Sometimes (too often) there some borderline cruelty that goes on before they get to the show ring for that discipline. You need to spend more time watchign them train those horses.

And back to the OP. every single step that they land toe first is damaging the coffin joint, impar ligament and navicular bone. It's a direct cause and those barns are full of it. Their vets make a fortune injecting coffin jonts (and hocks) every season.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil do you actually think that the posted example of a winning WP horse is "collection?" :eek:
And have you ever watched them *train them* to do that? I have. Sometimes (too often) there some borderline cruelty that goes on before they get to the show ring for that discipline. You need to spend more time watchign them train those horses.


Surely you Jest:eek:The WP Jog Is definitely not considered "collection" and If you dont believe it is force that is used to achieve this you should hang around for a "training session"


This is a good discussion Patty and Jason. Their is cruelty and good horsemanship in every discipline. I have spent quit a bit of time around different disciplines and trainers. The way you explain it one would think every trainer in the WP world is cruel and all WP horses are lame. From my view it is you that needs to get out more. By the way collection is a controlled walk, trot, jog, lope and canter whatever you want to call it. With a loose rein, soft hands good contact with your leg, balance that requires good communication with the horse. Have you ever collected a horse in those gaits, I have and it requires good horsemanship skills to do it right. Look at the video Redhush posted Dressage vs. Reining that is a good example of a winner in my book.

I have seen cruelty and poor horsemanship. Some folks just don't get it and will never change.

[calshoer]

The way you explain it one would think every trainer in the WP world is cruel Too many are. Even though it may look slow and gentle, they do things to force those horses to go that way. and all WP horses are lame. Not all, but an extremely high percentage are. From my view it is you that needs to get out more. By the way collection is a controlled walk, trot, jog, lope and canter whatever you want to call it. That is not the definition of collection.
A horse can be 'in control' but still be totally strung out.
"Collection" is the proper gathering up of the horses body, with his hindquarters doing the driving and light in his front end. That can be fast or slow. Going slow while falling on his face is NOT "collection". (Bucking, by the way, is an example of extreme "collection" ...:D)

[calshoer]

Both of these horses are "in control". Both are supposedly "collected" .
One is correctly collected, the other is not. Which one is more likely to get navicular syndrome?

[Ray_Knightley]

Both of these horses are "in control". Both are supposedly "collected" .
One is correctly collected, the other is not. Which one is more likely to get navicular syndrome?

The horse on the right is working with a bridge and is collected .
as for which one will get navicular syndrom ,well who knows ,if the right horse is at that standard of its working life then should be for sure he has been tested from top to bottom for everything ..
as for the left horse well that is still in the stars but he does seem to be coming down on his toes ,but this cout just be a result of the fight heis having with his rider at the time ..

ray knightley farrier.

[Jaye Perry]

Both of these horses are "in control". Both are supposedly "collected" .
One is correctly collected, the other is not. Which one is more likely to get navicular syndrome?

If both are warmbloods, they have navic changes already; inherit to the breed:cool:

[Jason Maki]

Phil,
I've ridden my whole life. My mothers barrel horse at home, then when I was four I was offered ballet lessons or riding lessons... tough choice huh. The worst part is I still ended up in tights. I rode hunter ponies till I was jumping stuff taller than I was and my mom got scared, so I learned to ride saddle seat ( no tights but funny coats) and showed my half arab pony til my legs got to long. We switched to stock type horses somewhere in the middle '80's so I had to learn to ride with my hands down and my chin u[ I kept trying to look between the horses ears, but the QH's were railed out, I could only see about ten feet in front of me... but I got to wear jeans unless I was in a hunt seat class) After college I worked in OK and FL as the start rider= walk, trot, cantor follow your nose and whoa for a of couple trainers. I got married and a bunkhouse bed and $200 a week no longer cut it so I had to make a living... so here I am.
I've been on ropers,reiners,can chasers, penning horses dressage horses, five gaited saddle breds, three gaited park horses (Morgan and Arab) western pleasure stock horses and light horses (both natural and hobble hobble hitch varieties) jumpers, hunters and galloped a few race horses on a tb farm but somewhere around 18 I went from 145 to 198 and got to heavy.
Yes, I ride.
And also think a flowing soft, balanced off your seat and leg dialed in western pleasure horse is really cool... the mechaninical ones not so much.
Jason

[Phil Armitage]

somewhere around 18 I went from 145 to 198 and got to heavy.


Same thing happened to me, went over 200. :mad:

My daughter and I do the training and will only let me do the ground work until I shed a few pounds. Once she told me to get off her morgan before I break her back. :eek::)

I use to be the one who rode them all before anyone else did, pre-ground work days. :)

[Phil Armitage]

"Collection" is the proper gathering up of the horses body, with his hindquarters doing the driving and light in his front end. That can be fast or slow. Going slow while falling on his face is NOT "collection". (Bucking, by the way, is an example of extreme "collection" ...:D)

Maybe you can show me one day. :)

[cuttinshoer]

Everyone has there own definition of collection, but the majority of wp horses I see are not properly collected, half the time their lopeing in the front and trotting in the back, something not right about that. They can't hardly get there toes of the ground. Granted their are some really nice ones out their also. The cutting club I belong to has their shows at a barn with some wp riders. the plain old o-ring snaffle is there bit of choice with a set of draw reins hooked to it either with pulleys or not, with the bottom end either hook to the cinch between their legs or onto the cinch rings everytime they take a step their jerking and pulling to keep them heads on the ground. The only time their on a loose rein is in front of a judge for what maybe 5 minutes. To me theirs something majorly wrong with that.

Justin Decker

[Clint Burrell]

OK,this is kinda off the topic I inquired about but I'll go along. We can debate the efficacy of training all day long, and I agree that the mechanical looking WP horses don't look sound,won't stay sound, and don't have a good way of going in general. However, nothing will change until judges quit rewarding this by placing these horses in the top of their class. This is the reason the gaited horse show community is having the trouble they are. Qtr horses used to be stock horses and somewhere we've lost sight of that in our showing. All I can do is try to shoe them to the best of my ability. Halter horses are no better, 1300 pounds on 000 feet. Kinda hard to keep sound even without being ridden. Race horses get a hard time once in a while too,along with their trainers, but at least the horses generally have better conformation. We could go on and on but alas to no avail so good night.;):)

Clint Burrell

[tbloomer]

Y'all might find this article (http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/11/western-pleasure-gait-analysis-not-what.html) interesting:

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/11/western-pleasure-gait-analysis-not-what.html

[Mike Ferrara]

I haven't worked around WP horses much but my wife worked for a breeder a few years back.

They were riding one of their horses one day when I pulled up and I asked my wife why they were riding a horse that was so sick. The horses head was so low and the gaits so screwed up that I really thought the horse was so sick as to be near death.

[mwmyersdvm]

The question asked was “Can aluminum be absorbed through the hoof” and the answer is “No”. Even hoof dressings supposedly designed to be absorbed into the hoof wall do not perform this function as evidenced in Dr. Hood’s study at Texas A&M some years ago.

Gallium nitrate is an unusual medication generally used to combat hypercalcemia related to catrcinoma in human medicine. It will have no effect on navicular disease.

There is so much that goes on behind the scenes at horse shows and in the show barns it is too massive to cover here and inappropriate for the topic as well.

Most of the horses referred to me with “incurable navicular disease” have laminitis and can be proven to have it with a venogram.

Some things you may be able to do in your trims is to educate the trainers where possible. Not all are interested or able to understand where you are trying to take their horse. In their defense, the ‘high heel’ belief comes from their experience with some farriers that take more heel than toe and they don’t understand the mechanics, they just have to deal with the bad result. Go over this fact with them and you may make a little headway.

If that doesn’t work you can focus on the horse. I do a lot of trim and shoe work under horses I don’t tell trainers about and they can’t figure out. I can easily lower a heel gradually over time as long as I am addressing the toe properly. The horse keeps moving better and better so the trainer leaves me to my work. I can show the trainer a really beat up heel that needs to come off and if it needs rebuilding, I can do that and charge for it. Making sure phalangeal alignment and breakover are properly addressed goes a long way so as long as the horse looks and moves better after the work, you usually won’t get many ‘helpful hints’ from trainers in your work.

If you want to see a horse really float in a jog and lope, watch a good western pleasure American Saddlebred. There are quite a few dressage horses that would love to be able to move like some of these guys do.

Good luck under there.

[Mark_Gough]

As has already been observed, training methods/results are likely more a cause of various nav issues than aluminum shoes.

We train for WP at our facility. Rules are pretty simple.

Mouth-popping is not a collection methodology.
A 4-step, broken gaited lope is not a lope.
If you want to trot 'in-place', buy a treadmill.
The rail is not a brake.
Peanut pushers have trunks and are found at the zoo.
These are quarter horses.
The Paso barn is down the road on the left. :rolleyes:

If natural stride length is long, must be a hunt seat animal. :D

Arena sand is abrasive. Steel kerck's for work.

The AQHA rules have changed, for the better in my view.

Now... how do we get the judges to acknowledge it?!

Best judge I heard last year made the following announcement before the class began.

"Too low or too slow and you're outta here!".

Cheers,
Mark

"Horsemanship; The lost art of keeping the animal between you and the ground"

[Jack Evers]

Mark,

When I left the WP pleasure world in the 80's, the AQHA had put in a rule that a horse that carried it's ears lower than it wither for three consecutive strides it was to be disqualified. Is that still in the rule book and still being ignored or did they give up and take it out?

[Henry Heymering, RMF]

This was in reference to an article posted on another site. It claimed that aluminum could be absorbed through the feet,thus building up to toxic levels. Supposedly this could lead to surface bone loss,bone softening and soft tissue inflammation. The treatment they claim is Gallium Nitrate, which is supposed to force the aluminum out of the bone and have an anti-inflammatory effect. They also claim steel nails in aluminum shoes, in an acidic environment such as urine could cause a "battery" effect, speeding up the process. One of the cited references is a RJF farrier. I'm neither for/against such a theory, just curious if anyone had heard of this.
Clint Burrell

Hi Clint -

Er... the main theory is that aluminum, because it causes bone loss and weakness, causes navicular disease (or at least the bone loss form of navicular disease - probably not the forms due to excess bone growth, tendonitis, bursitis, or ligament tearing). Eby makes it clear in the article that the idea aluminum from shoes might contribute to aluminum loads in the body is conjecture. Personally, I can't see how it would be possible ... I get the electrolysis ... but don't believe the hoof can absorb the aluminum into the rest of the body.

I'm mentioned in the article because I had a horse with some strange neurological problems - he was hypersensitive to very light touch, but not to pushing, slapping, or heavy touch (in addition to navicular, and other problems). I had several vets examine him and I consulted with several others but didn't get any answers. I tried a hair analysis (which is accurate for metals, but does not directly correlate for minerals) and he was normal for everything except aluminum, which was literally off the chart ... the chart did not go that high. Since aluminum toxicity can cause neurological problems, I thought that might be the answer.

George Eby was simultaneously working on the aluminum angle for navicular disease and found my horse's case to fit his hypothesis.

Out of curiosity, I did hair analysis on about 10 of my customers horses over a 2 county area. All the horses were unusually high in aluminum. There was an aluminum plant in the area ... I don't know if that can contaminate the air with aluminum ... from my reading I did not find evidence of that.

I ran samples of hay, grain, supplements, soil, well water, and snow where I boarded my horse. Snow had the highest concentration of aluminum.

I don't know what to make of this information. Since other apparently healthy horses also had similar high levels of aluminum without problem I'm a little reluctant to blame the aluminum. However, on the other side, I gave my horse Alumina 7C (a homeopathic remedy for aluminum toxicity), his aluminum levels came down (but still in the toxic range) and his symptoms lessened.

For what it's worth, I now think undiagnosed Lyme disease may have been the cause of his problems ... and now that I mention that ... it's certainly possible that Lyme disease could present as navicular pain as well.

In short, I think George Eby is a brilliant man, but I doubt that aluminum shoes cause any health problems, and I think it's likely that Gallium will be helpful in only a percentage of navicular horses.

[mwmyersdvm]

I have always found it intriguing that so many 'intelligent' people come up with so many off the wall explanations for 'navicular disease' and don't look at the mechanics of it. There was a veterinarian who made a fortune a few years ago with his 'revolutionary navicular vaccine'. He claimed to have discovered the bacteria that caused navicular disease and his vaccine would cure it. Quite a few horses got 'vaccinated', experienced the 'good take' from the resultant nasty abscess, and this guy has disappeared from the charts. He was even 'published' in some well read magazines. I say 'published' because these are not peer reviewed articles. Since navicular problems are extremely difficult to actually prove clinically and with standard diagnostic techniques, it will be a syndrome that will be exploited by profiteers for years to come. I would advise extreme caution whenever the claims of curing navicular problems are linked to a product sale. This is especially true if there is no mention of proper trimming and shoeing to go along with the therapy.

[Clint Burrell]

Thank you Mr. Heymering. I'm not one to believe or dis-believe something until I've heard a reasonable explanation, your's is just that and goes along w/ what I thought.

Thank's again,

Clint

[mybluedanube]

My daughter and I do the training and will only let me do the ground work until I shed a few pounds. Once she told me to get off her morgan before I break her back. :eek::)



This is where we are miscommunication, Morgan circuit western pleasure is VERY different than the rest. The horses :eek: are actually ridden properly.

I share an arena with a popular western pleasure trainer AQHA and those horses never learn collection, They learn a head set and to go slow.... ditto what Patty, and Jason are saying.

[mybluedanube]

As has already been observed, training methods/results are likely more a cause of various nav issues than aluminum shoes.

We train for WP at our facility. Rules are pretty simple.

Mouth-popping is not a collection methodology.
A 4-step, broken gaited lope is not a lope.
If you want to trot 'in-place', buy a treadmill.
The rail is not a brake.
Peanut pushers have trunks and are found at the zoo.
These are quarter horses.
The Paso barn is down the road on the left. :rolleyes:

If natural stride length is long, must be a hunt seat animal. :D

Arena sand is abrasive. Steel kerck's for work.

The AQHA rules have changed, for the better in my view.

Now... how do we get the judges to acknowledge it?!

Best judge I heard last year made the following announcement before the class began.

"Too low or too slow and you're outta here!".

Cheers,
Mark

"Horsemanship; The lost art of keeping the animal between you and the ground"

Clearly you guys are the good ones. Win a bunch and the rest of them will start to follow your lead.

[complete horse sense]

Navicular is a symtom of a bigger health picture. I haven't had one horse yet not recover from so called navicular. Only a farrier can fix this problem. Now getting a farrier to listen,thats a challenge. Every farrier i have met keeps looking at the front hooves and rightfully so because thats the obvious,but the underlying problem and the solution is in the hindend. You will always find a navicular,cushings,laminitis horse stand with the front legs behind the plain of the shoulder and front legs wide apart and the hind legs close together and under themselves. Why is this? it should be the opposite! Trying to get of the built up pressure thats accumulates under the sole which is why the heels contract,ttrying to avoid putting weight on them. In alot of cases the sole will be bruised at the point/tip of the frog. The key here is to force the horse back on his hindquarters so the front can repair itself. The issue/problem here is how so called navicular happened in the first place. Look at the hindquartes i.e muscles contracting bringing the hind legs close together which means contracting muscles on the filter system,kidneys which filter food and the liver which filters blood. These two organs are compromised and the horse leans as far forward as possible to relieve the pain and the front hooves take all the abuse. Explains why the industry makes sooo many more funky shoes for the front. In all my years shoeing, 30+yrs I have watched the industry get so far away from how the horse is made no matter what their breed is or sport of choice is the muscles haven't changed. If everyone wants to know more? Let me know. This and so many other horse ailments such as colic for instance can be stopped in minutes. A farrier is just as important if not more so than a vet. When horses back in the old days had health issues,who did they call? A Farrier! My email is
doug@completehorsesense.com

[Ray_Knightley]

Navicular is a symtom of a bigger health picture. I haven't had one horse yet not recover from so called navicular. Only a farrier can fix this problem. Now getting a farrier to listen,thats a challenge. Every farrier i have met keeps looking at the front hooves and rightfully so because thats the obvious,but the underlying problem and the solution is in the hindend. You will always find a navicular,cushings,laminitis horse stand with the front legs behind the plain of the shoulder and front legs wide apart and the hind legs close together and under themselves. Why is this? it should be the opposite! Trying to get of the built up pressure thats accumulates under the sole which is why the heels contract,ttrying to avoid putting weight on them. In alot of cases the sole will be bruised at the point/tip of the frog. The key here is to force the horse back on his hindquarters so the front can repair itself. The issue/problem here is how so called navicular happened in the first place. Look at the hindquartes i.e muscles contracting bringing the hind legs close together which means contracting muscles on the filter system,kidneys which filter food and the liver which filters blood. These two organs are compromised and the horse leans as far forward as possible to relieve the pain and the front hooves take all the abuse. Explains why the industry makes sooo many more funky shoes for the front. In all my years shoeing, 30+yrs I have watched the industry get so far away from how the horse is made no matter what their breed is or sport of choice is the muscles haven't changed. If everyone wants to know more? Let me know. This and so many other horse ailments such as colic for instance can be stopped in minutes. A farrier is just as important if not more so than a vet. When horses back in the old days had health issues,who did they call? A Farrier! My email is
doug@completehorsesense.com

I can`t wait to read the answers here...I am off to wash my hoG...

[Bradley-1stChoice]

I can`t wait to read the answers here...I am off to wash my hoG...
Quote: It's Popcorn time.

[Jaye Perry]

Navicular is a symtom of a bigger health picture. I haven't had one horse yet not recover from so called navicular. Only a farrier can fix this problem. Now getting a farrier to listen,thats a challenge. Every farrier i have met keeps looking at the front hooves and rightfully so because thats the obvious,but the underlying problem and the solution is in the hindend. You will always find a navicular,cushings,laminitis horse stand with the front legs behind the plain of the shoulder and front legs wide apart and the hind legs close together and under themselves. Why is this? it should be the opposite! Trying to get of the built up pressure thats accumulates under the sole which is why the heels contract,ttrying to avoid putting weight on them. In alot of cases the sole will be bruised at the point/tip of the frog. The key here is to force the horse back on his hindquarters so the front can repair itself. The issue/problem here is how so called navicular happened in the first place. Look at the hindquartes i.e muscles contracting bringing the hind legs close together which means contracting muscles on the filter system,kidneys which filter food and the liver which filters blood. These two organs are compromised and the horse leans as far forward as possible to relieve the pain and the front hooves take all the abuse. Explains why the industry makes sooo many more funky shoes for the front. In all my years shoeing, 30+yrs I have watched the industry get so far away from how the horse is made no matter what their breed is or sport of choice is the muscles haven't changed. If everyone wants to know more? Let me know. This and so many other horse ailments such as colic for instance can be stopped in minutes. A farrier is just as important if not more so than a vet. When horses back in the old days had health issues,who did they call? A Farrier! My email is
doug@completehorsesense.com

Hiddy!

I got one; come on! :cool::):):)

[Gary Hill]

Threads like this make me miss the old forums when you could see who was online and what they were reading! You don't burn the Popcorn that way.:D

[mwmyersdvm]

From completehorsesense : "I haven't had one horse yet not recover from so called navicular".

That sums it up rather well. Most of the 'so called navicular' referrals I receive are laminitic and most have recovered when treated properly. Others are heel sore or hoof sore, but the definitive diagnosis of 'navicular' is often elusive. However, the opposite of that is it is difficult to prove it is not navicular so the 'diagnosis' can be rather popular and can be an attention getter.

[Cyber Farrier]

Threads like this make me miss the old forums when you could see who was online and what they were reading! You don't burn the Popcorn that way.:D

No different now. The same info is available.

Baron

[Gary Hill]

TRUE ole Master, but I men't the list of everyone on, now it has anyone who has been on all day? Just wondering ?:cool:

[Jack Evers]

From completehorsesense : "I haven't had one horse yet not recover from so called navicular".

That sums it up rather well. Most of the 'so called navicular' referrals I receive are laminitic and most have recovered when treated properly. Others are heel sore or hoof sore, but the definitive diagnosis of 'navicular' is often elusive. However, the opposite of that is it is difficult to prove it is not navicular so the 'diagnosis' can be rather popular and can be an attention getter.

Doc, I remember some years ago a veterinary talk where "navicular" was described as "the last refuge of the diagnostically deficient". I loved that definition.

[DeniseMc]

You will always find a navicular,cushings,laminitis horse stand with the front legs behind the plain of the shoulder and front legs wide apart and the hind legs close together and under themselves.

Be careful with the use of "always". The laminitic horses I have seen will usually stand with their fronts stretched out because they are painful in the toes. The navicular horses will usually alternate their stance with pointing the hoof and up on the toe like a ballerina. Horses that are hurting in the back or hind will usually stand with the front legs behind the vertical like you describe and their hinds can be up underneath themselves or back, depending on where it hurts the most....
Denise

[Rick Talbert]

would rigidity in the heels contribute to navicular changes? anyone

[mwmyersdvm]

Doc, I remember some years ago a veterinary talk where "navicular" was described as "the last refuge of the diagnostically deficient". I loved that definition.

That is a good one. Shoulder lameness is another. Necks and backs also follow along those lines. Most of the back soreness I see is correctible with correct trims and shoeing of the hinds. A great many back sore horses (along with hock and stifle soreness) have negative rear palmar angles. Some even have hooves that look pretty good until you radiograph them.

[tbloomer]

Do they have negative front plantar angles too?

Sorry, Doc, couldn't resist. ;)

[mwmyersdvm]

Do they have negative front plantar angles too?

Sorry, Doc, couldn't resist. ;)


Ahhh....I must be more cautious and precise here :)

I do suppose reversing the order and position of the hooves (possibly hereditary or congenital defect) could be a new cause of diagnostically challenging lameness. Perhaps Tildren would work well on these cases (couldn't resist that one) :)

On a more serious note, I have radiographic films of a Canadian Warmblood that has front coffin bones that look like hind coffin bones from chronic laminitis. So perhaps there is some possibility of this becoming a diagnosis :)