working on a square horn

[dieselfarmer]

my mentor just gave me a Mankel anvil. it has nice really sharp edges but a square horn. how the heck to you work hot shoes on this thing :o

i have some bigger anvils with round horns but the edges are chewed up. i want to use this anvil for a bit and then try one of his other anvils and maybe this spring buy an emerson or scott. He also has a pallet full of anvils and I hope to try all of them at some point. any tips on making shoes with this one especially front ones? I understand how to make them on a round horn but this square one is wierd. he uses a round horn and told me just to make hind shoes for a while. :)

thank you

[clinkercjf]

I believe the flat horn probably evolved from manufactured shoe availability. Opening toes, straightening branches, bringing heels in etc.

It is not impossible to build shoes on that style of horn but they are better suited to shapeing keg shoes. Get a round horn if you want to build shoes. You can do a fine job of shaping keg shoes on a round horn also. The round horn just has more versatility.

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

I have a square horn and make handmades on it. I guess it takes some getting used to. I'd much rather have a round horn though.

[Jake Whitman]

I have a square horn and make handmades on it. I guess it takes some getting used to. I'd much rather have a round horn though.Is that why all of your shoes have square toes??? Do you need a clip starter as well???

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

Huh? I didn't think they had square toes. I've been fitting the toe more and more lately because I feel like it is more correct. I've never tried a clip starter, I use a cross pien.

[Jake Whitman]

Huh? I didn't think they had square toes. I've been fitting the toe more and more lately because I feel like it is more correct. I've never tried a clip starter, I use a cross pien.Is your cross - pien Broke???

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

No:confused:

[Jake Whitman]

Is your hammer hand sore???

[Cyber Farrier]

Is there a reason you have a problem asking questions that contain some information? I haven't the slightest idea what you're getting at, and I don't think he does either. Being obtuse isn't a virtue.

Baron

[Jake Whitman]

Is there a reason you have a problem asking questions that contain some information? I haven't the slightest idea what you're getting at, and I don't think he does either. Being obtuse isn't a virtue.

Baron
It's definatally a valid question, You may learn something here Baron!

[Cyber Farrier]

It's definatally a valid question, You may learn something here Baron!

Quite possibly so. I learn every day. So, please explain your question(s), and let us understand the reasoning behind them. Then perhaps they may be able to be answered, or discussed, and learning shall ensue.

Baron

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

Is your hammer hand sore???

Not as much as it needs to be but I've been too busy lately with other things.

[clinkercjf]

Just a guess. Pre-clipped shoes in the posted pictures?

[Jake Whitman]

See Baron, What could you learn from this young Man??

[Joey Aczon]

You gotta work over the side of the anvil, holding your shoe at a 45° over the horn, either on the near or far side, and swing your hammer to match.

I never knew there was a difference until after I bought an anvil, and still haven't worked on a round horn.

[smitty88]

See Baron, What could you learn from this young Man??

whats that all about Jake
am i missing somthing

[BPethick]

my mentor just gave me a Mankel anvil. it has nice really sharp edges but a square horn. how the heck to you work hot shoes on this thing :o

Do you own a 7" angle grinder and a 24 grit Disc?

You can make that square horn round pretty quickly! :D

[fairweatherforge]

I worked off a mankel for a while. No problems with the horn.

[Jim Sweeney]

Do you own a 7" angle grinder and a 24 grit Disc?

You can make that square horn round pretty quickly! :D

Bob, I was wondering about that after I read the first post. I have only one anvil and it is a 125# Centuar designed by Bruce Daniels that has a flat horn and the tapered boat tail horn on the other. I was thinking about trading out for a 100# Scott to get the round horn and loose 25# in and out of my truck.
I am kind of sentimental about the anvil and would love to convert it over to the rounder style. Have you done it? Do you have any tips? That horn looks like it has plenty of material to spare, I just never seriously considered modifying it.

[bumfoot SHOER]

Bob, I was wondering about that after I read the first post. I have only one anvil and it is a 125# Centuar designed by Bruce Daniels that has a flat horn and the tapered boat tail horn on the other. I was thinking about trading out for a 100# Scott to get the round horn and loose 25# in and out of my truck.
I am kind of sentimental about the anvil and would love to convert it over to the rounder style. Have you done it? Do you have any tips? That horn looks like it has plenty of material to spare, I just never seriously considered modifying it.

jim when you do something like that you take as little metal off as you can to get horn were you would like it to be.its like a fine piece of wood you work it gently.

[brian robertson]

Use one of those carpenter contour gauges to check your progress. Grind a bit then push the gauge on. It's easier to see what you've done by looking at the gauge.

[Red Amor]

I think it would be a shame to change the anvil
go buy just what you want yeah;)

[calshoer]

To make a shoe on a flat type horn ,all you need to do is move your hammer blow a TINY bit more to the offside of the horn from where you would hit it on a round horn, thats all. As long as you have a little air under the stock where you hit it .it will bend. It's not rocket science. A round surface is a round surface, even if that round surface is placed a little more to the side of the horn.

[dieselfarmer]

thank you, i'll keep trying. I am so used to a round horn that it's really throwing me off. I really looking forward to a new anvil

[calshoer]

Here play with hitting it here, use your tong hand the same as you would onthe round horn, and youll eventually get the feel. I have had flat horn anvils my whole career ,from school on.

[Bradley-1stChoice]

By the looks of Patty's drawing,

You could just lay your square horn anvil on its side and you would have a round horn. :D

[Clint Burrell]

Maybe cut the horn off and weld back on sideways.:D

Sorry,:) I have a flat horn Mankle,used for 17 years and still in very good condition.Learn't on a flat horn too(Dad's is an MFC or old Multi-tool) Dad still uses that one. He tried some others and just goes back to that one,Knows every dip in it. If you like a round horn,Buy a good one and keep it forever.If you buy one for the shop, Just find the same one only bigger. Spend what you need to, It won't go bad. Darn things seem to last forever. Good luck.

Clint

[George Geist]

I used a Mankel for about 15 years too. Is a good anvil. Is all about the way the hammer is swung. Anvil shouldn't matter.
George

[Jake Whitman]

Here play with hitting it here, use your tong hand the same as you would onthe round horn, and youll eventually get the feel. I have had flat horn anvils my whole career ,from school on.
What Position is the tong -hand, ? That would be a good spot to draw some steel out, i think.

[fairweatherforge]

If you've seen the ferrie videos, they actually start turning the branches on the face of the anvil. As long as you don't get chatter marks on the inside of the web you can turn shoes anywhere you want.

When I used the Mankel, I only used the front part of the horn.

[Joey Aczon]

When I used the Mankel, I only used the front part of the horn.

I only use about the last 3" most of the time. You really need to get out there when you're working hind shoes.

And Jakes right, that's a great spot to draw steel on.

[Ronald Aalders]

If you've seen the ferrie videos, they actually start turning the branches on the face of the anvil. As long as you don't get chatter marks on the inside of the web you can turn shoes anywhere you want.

When I used the Mankel, I only used the front part of the horn.


I always start turning branches on the face. It's a lot faster that way. I just fine tune on the horn. In the US I worked a flat/oval horn sometimes but it drives me crazy. A horn should be round.

But the way I thought you guys meant this with a square horn.....


Ronald Aalders

[Ray_Knightley]

I always start turning branches on the face. It's a lot faster that way. I just fine tune on the horn. In the US I worked a flat/oval horn sometimes but it drives me crazy. A horn should be round.

But the way I thought you guys meant this with a square horn.....


Ronald Aalders

Thats what we call a square horn ,or four edge horn here ,round is round horn even if its flat here!!

ray knightley..

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Thats what we call a square horn ,or four edge horn here ,round is round horn even if its flat here!!

ray knightley..

I've heard it called a Double Bick,
One round and the other flat.

It is what mine is, a double bick.

[Joey Aczon]

Did you ever get that anvil Ronald? How do you like it?

[calshoer]

What Position is the tong -hand, ? That would be a good spot to draw some steel out, i think.As you well know, where your tong hand is depends on what you are doing to the steel at that moment. That is why I said "do the same thing with your tong hand" without being specific. If you *really" can't figure it out , :rolleyes: if you were turning that branch, you would be in the process of lowering your tong hand before each hammer drop to maintain a little "space" between the steel and the horn into which to move the steel. It's just that the place to do that is a little more toward the side of the horn where it is more curved, not so close to the center line.

[calshoer]

I was taught to turn the toe bend on the face, and the branches around the horn.....anmd still do it that way on the rare occasion that I HAVE to make a shoe just to show someone how they shod horses back in the in the age of the dinosaurs. :D

[clinkercjf]

I was taught to turn the toe bend on the face, and the branches around the horn.....anmd still do it that way on the rare occasion that I HAVE to make a shoe just to show someone how they shod horses back in the in the age of the dinosaurs. :D

I was under the impression you turned shoe's on hitch rails and various parts of tractors.

[BPethick]

Bob, I was wondering about that after I read the first post. I have only one anvil and it is a 125# Centuar designed by Bruce Daniels that has a flat horn and the tapered boat tail horn on the other. I was thinking about trading out for a 100# Scott to get the round horn and loose 25# in and out of my truck.
I am kind of sentimental about the anvil and would love to convert it over to the rounder style. Have you done it? Do you have any tips? That horn looks like it has plenty of material to spare, I just never seriously considered modifying it.

Jim,

The Scott Anvil would be a much better choice over either anvil as they are.

The horn is not hardened, so grinding has no ill effects. I have rebuilt and reshaped anvils in the past and only had a better anvil for the effort.

If you just rounded off the corners on the horn of the Mankel, it would be easier to shape shoes on...

[calshoer]

I was under the impression you turned shoe's on hitch rails and various parts of tractors.Oh sure, I have just for giggles once or twice, I suppose in reality, anyone with a forge and a hammer could turn a shoe on a boulder, the concrete floor, truck bumper, Jake's head, whatever. ;)

[J.H. shoeing]

Oh sure, I have just for giggles once or twice, I suppose in reality, anyone with a forge and a hammer could turn a shoe on a boulder, the concrete floor, truck bumper, Jake's head, whatever. ;)

there ya go making personal digs at somebody and when they school you you'll be crying for the principal. and just to stay on topic I use the bumper of my 73 ford truck to shape my shoes

[Ronald Aalders]

Did you ever get that anvil Ronald? How do you like it?

Yes I bought it. I have it set up on this anvil stump deal. The guy that sold it to me said the anvil stump is not strong enough for a 220 Lbs anvil. I don't see why.

I have not worked it much though. While at it I ordered a new forge for in the shop too..............



Ronald Aalders

[Ronald Aalders]

As you well know, where your tong hand is depends on what you are doing to the steel at that moment.

My mentor told me very spefically that the position of the tong and your hand is always more or less the same holding the shoe your working on. As is your position behind the anvil. Changing the position of your tong hand causes extra strain that will only slow you down, or show bystanders you lack milage behind an anvil............

I'm not sure how you make shoes but it sounds like you'd have a hard time making 12 in an hour like he did. (Truth be told I tried it once or twice but never even get close to that either.)


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Ronald , Jake knows exactly what I meant and he is just digging at me because of my attitude about handmade shoes.

As to where my tong hand is, maybe I did not word it clearly. Of COURSE I know that the tong hand does not change grip on the reins nor does the grip on the steel change during the work in that heat. What I meant was that the tong hand will be moving as the bar is being worked over the horn, in order to move the bar stock under the hammer. Otherwise you would be just hitting the steel in the same spot and drawing it. .
Its basic blacksmithing. You know that, I know that, and so does Jake. Geesh.

[Ronald Aalders]

Ronald , Jake knows exactly what I meant and he is just digging at me because of my attitude about handmade shoes.

As to where my tong hand is, maybe I did not word it clearly. Of COURSE I know that the tong hand does not change grip on the reins nor does the grip on the steel change during the work in that heat. What I meant was that the tong hand will be moving as the bar is being worked over the horn, in order to move the bar stock under the hammer. Otherwise you would be just hitting the steel in the same spot and drawing it. .
Its basic blacksmithing. You know that, I know that, and so does Jake. Geesh.


It's not about the grip, it's about the position of your hand holding the shoe relative to the horn or the face. Basically that position is always the same.

Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Ronald Sorry I can't word it any more clear. Maybe it is a languiage barrier or something.......in this clip I found, see the tong hand moving down as this kid turns his branch over the horn, (about 1 minute and 20 seconds into the clip) THAT is what I am talking about. NOW do you understand what I was referencing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UoyDTjAMhg

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

Oh yea I see what you mean. Wheres your video?:D

[calshoer]

I would do some little videos to put on my website but I don't have a way to hook my video camera to my computer yet...(long story....it's because I didnt know enough to order the right port on this DELL to upload from the video camera ....duh.)

[clinkercjf]

Patty,

I had not noticed you had a web site until I read your last post. I also noticed that your spell check was not working when you set up your web site. Real professional looking.

Cinker