Cutting a Degree/wedge pad to rim?

[SlowShoe]

Anyone ever done this? The owner is requesting the frog be exposed. I want to match the angles, but one foot is seveirly under-run. Im worried that if I cut the plastic degree or wedge pad to a rim pad and rivet the heels it may not be structurly sound enough when the horse is turning tightly. I will not be useing a degree shoe at the owners request. I will be useing kerkheat Triumps clipped. This is the front left foot. Horse will be doing uper level jumpers. What are your thoughts?

Feedback is greatly aprieciated.

Thank you!
Josh

[Derin Foor]

Hi Josh,

My initial thought is that if the owner knows so much, whay aren't THEY shoeing the horse???

having said that, applying a bar wedge between the shoe and the foot, properly riveted, leaves most of the frog exposed and should be stable enough to not move around.....you could use a dremmel tool to remove about 1/2 of the 'bar' part of the wedge pad along with anything that hangs to the inside of the shoe.....doesnt it seem like the owner is more worried about looks than function?...making it into a true rim wedge makes the chance of failure that much higher especially if they horse is worked a lot

if you cave to the owners request I would put EVERYTHING in writing noting instructions from the owner, etc.......when the S#!* hits the fan, guess who gets the blame?.....if this is just a great client, then I guess you do what you have to do...if they can be persuaded to have a little faith in what you do, then you might press the issue and try to do it your way

I like owner input until it interferes with the well being of the horse for the sake of looking good

just my opinion,

Derin

[Dave Purves]

The problem with wedge rim pads is that the frog is now off of the ground and not bearing weight at all. If the horse needs wedges for low heel or crushed heels, guess what, take away frog pressure and the heels will really get crushed. I would only apply a wedge if I can also apply frog support. If that means rim wedge with hoofpak or dental impression material then that's what they get. I rim wedge with no frog support is only asking for trouble. If you can get enough frog support with a wedge bar pad, then maybe that's enough, but leaving the frog exposed in this situation is dangerous in my opinion. Not to mention that aluminum shoes aren't exactly stable, add to that a wedge rim pad, and you have a recipe for crushed heels. If that's what the owner wants, explain your concerns, if they still want it, take pictures and like Derin said write everything down. Don't let the owner know your taking notes but get it all down. I personally would think about not shoeing the horse at all if my concerns weren't enough to sway the owner. Or I would charge her soo much that she wouldn't call me back anyway.
Why does the owner want wedge pads to begin with?
Dave

Sorry, I just re-read your post and know why you're using wedges

[old heller]

Its funny this post is here now as i have been racking by brain as how to give frog support without covering up the sole i am not a fan of anything that cant breath.let us know what you do.

[SlowShoe]

Its funny this post is here now as i have been racking by brain as how to give frog support without covering up the sole i am not a fan of anything that cant breath.let us know what you do.

Well I did her tonight, and it turned out the under-run heel was not nealy as under-run as it looked at a glance... The toe was actually about a half inch longer on the that hoot than the other. So it can out really nice without a degree pad. But I couldnt talk her out of the Aluminiums on the hinds.. ahh well. Thanks for all the input guys! Even though I didnt use this time. =]

Thanks guys!
Josh

[HorseHelper]

Wow, I cannot believe the way some of you feel about your clients. Who is with the horse 24/7? And if the owner has an active roll in their horses career and health than they study about hoof structures and anatomy (any good owner will seek knowledge about these things). If you don't take into account what the owner is telling you, than you are playing a dangerous game. By no means am I saying to disregard your ideas, but don't disregard theirs either!! A GOOD farrier makes EVERYONE happy, the horse, the owner, and himself/herself.

The bar wedge pads are great, and they do allow contact with the frog if applied properly. The pad is flexable and stimulates the frog as it hits the ground. I have had great success with bar wedge pads, and will choose them over egg bar, bar, heart bar shoes, and/or solid bottom pads any day!!

[Donnie Walker]

Josh - I make rim wedges out of bar wedge pads and use them in cases where the frog will be in contact with the ground. Properly riveted they will not move. I have several performance horses in these and they remain stable. In cases where frog contact cannot be made I use the new perforated pad developed by EDSS and simply apply impression material in the rear portion of the foot and cut the remainder flush with the inner rim from the frog apex forward, thus exposing the remainder of the sole to air.

[Rick Burten]

Its funny this post is here now as i have been racking by brain as how to give frog support without covering up the sole i am not a fan of anything that cant breath.let us know what you do.
While a bar wedge pad is nice and usually effective, I am rapidly becoming a fan of bar wedge pad with frog prosthesis. Castle makes these pads in two different heel thicknesses and the pad is 'softer' than its incarnation as McClain frog support bar wedge pad. Depending on what I find when I work on the bottom of the hoof, I use either one.

[Rick Burten]

Wow, I cannot believe the way some of you feel about your clients. Who is with the horse 24/7?
Interestingly enough, we farriers are incredulous about the level of TSS* exhibited by fluff bunnies who own horses.





* TSS: Terminal Stable ******ity

[Bill Adams]

Wow, I cannot believe the way some of you feel about your clients. Who is with the horse 24/7?

The difference would be between the horse or the many horses or the dosens of horses of the client and the thousands of horses the farrier has worked on.
Again we all here get put right by someone who won't sign their name.
Bill

[SlowShoe]

This was over a year ago. This was a horse that my father sold and needed shoeing. She wanted AL all the way around front and hind. As farriers we try to do whats right for the horse. Lots of the times the owners are missinformed or just htink they have the righ idea when they dont truely know the mechanics behind it. Thats why WE shoe the horses, not the owners. Allthough opinionated lots of farriers do keep an open mind.

[Ronald Aalders]

Wow, I cannot believe the way some of you feel about your clients. Who is with the horse 24/7?

Who spend over 20 years or more working with horse's feet, not just the ones attached to your pet but of litterally thousands and thousands? Who spends his life, risking health, with a good chance he won't be able to do his job anymore when he's 60? All that just because he loves to work with horses and work on trouble those horses run into?

but don't disregard theirs either!! A GOOD farrier makes EVERYONE happy, the horse, the owner, and himself/herself.

A good shoer makes the horse happy even if that doesn't please the owner or the vet or God himself.

The bar wedge pads are great, and they do allow contact with the frog if applied properly. The pad is flexable and stimulates the frog as it hits the ground. I have had great success with bar wedge pads, and will choose them over egg bar, bar, heart bar shoes, and/or solid bottom pads any day!!

Maybe you'd do even a better job when you'd be a little more flexible in choosing what's good for an invidual horse at any one time.


Ronald Aalders

[ray steele]

Josh,

cutting and useing a degree or wedge pad as a rim should you ever need it in the future should not present any problems such as staying in place or being structuraly sound. The other issues brought up here need to be addressed but those are addressed everytime you shoe a horse with or without pads.


Regards

Ray Steele

[Corey M innick]

I shod a DutchWB thursday for the first time and used a wedge. He had a broken axis and generalized heel pain 6 months ago that blocked out abaxially.

Fast forward to today, he's been shod with eggbars and full 2 degree wedges up front and bar wedges out back. He had thrush in the off fore and off hind. Rads looked ok, except for the broken axis, so I made a pair of concave straightbars- 3/8x7/8 for the wider web and reduced weight, set back to mechanically achieve a/p balance.

With the thrush, broken back, and pronounced frog; I applied a 1 deg. bar wedge with the bar cut out to take pressure away from the frog, and to help balance. I then poured in Equipak Copper Sulfate (green) to the foot surface level of the shoe.

On the hinds the bar wedge pads had created an anaerobic environment for thrush, and had crushed the rear half of the frog along with undermining the integrity of the heels. I applied a open shoe w/o pads and instructed the owner how to treat the thrush with Mastititus medication.

When wedging up anything I most likely apply bar wedges, cut out into a rim pad, then offer some kind of support for the sole and frog. Usually Equipak or the like. It works for me, and I don't often wedge horses, but when the situation dictates, I try to do what's right for the horse.

Pics to follow when I'm home and have a chance.

[Corey M innick]

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27408593736.jpg
Here's the straight bar.
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27408593865.jpg
Here's the thrush.
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27408593721.jpg
The bar wedge cut out to eliminate direct pressure to the frog.

[Corey M innick]

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27408593836.jpg
The finnished product with Equipak copper sulfate applied up to the foot surface of the shoe.
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27408593718.jpg
Lateral view to show a/p balance.

[Gary Pfeiffer]

Horsehelper; Your name says it all. We are there to service the clients needs but first and foremost the horses well being is the number one priority. Most owners are not familiar with anatomy and the mechanics of the horse enough to make those decisions. Way too often owners read advertisements in horse magazines and think that they have found the cure all for their horse.
It is your responsibility as a professional farrier to make the right decision to aid that horse. If their idea is flawed, do you just give in to the owner because they are with the horse 24/7.
Personally I would be willing to take the initiative to point out the flaws in their thinking and insist on doing the best for the horse.
Even some Veterinarian's have the same problem, they get some sales pitch on a product or a style of shoe and every horse that they see needs this.
WE have one vet that wants whip across bar shoes, just a plain bar is really what he wants but adding those two words makes him feel like he's really ordering something really special for your horse.
If you are not using your training, knowledge and experience to explain to the owners, trainers, or veterinarian the flaws in their thinking, then you are not doing the best for the horse that is relying on you to help him. He is the silent partner in all this and, it is your place to stand up for him. You are his only voice and you are the expert in this area.
I am willing to walk away from a client that is ill informed because that client would rather be sold something that will not help the horse than to listen to my expertise.
You want pads on your horse fine, I'll nail them on.
Why you need pads is the information that I need to decide if it will be wedges or frog support pads, etc.
Your reasons give me the information that I need to determine what is the best pad to use, using my experience, knowledge and training. Not some add that you read.
I have had clients insist that the vet said 45 deg. when it was 54 deg.
Most owners don't notice a bent shoe, and you want to trust their judgement on how to shoe their horse. Where is your pride and faith in the knowledge that you should possess.

Gary

[Andrew Grimm]

Well said Gary,
I have a client who has several lame horses that are winning ribbons. He has decided that he wants to foxhunt the horses and told me he wanted either drive ins or borium. I suggested that for the best interest of the horses they should be drilled and taped that way for 6 out of 7 days a week they wouldn't have that permanent traction. Well, he bluntly stated that it takes to long he dosen't want to do that. So, I gave him my professional opinion and that's that. He want's to go with borium so that's what I'll do.



Andrew Grimm

[Jaye Perry]

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27408593836.jpg
The finnished product with Equipak copper sulfate applied up to the foot surface of the shoe.
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27408593718.jpg
Lateral view to show a/p balance.

Corey,

Looks good. One suggestion or question. The central sulcus needs to be treated to eliminate the "Deep" infection, didn't see a pic of that type of treatment. Did you ?

[Corey M innick]

Jaye-
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27421162142.jpg
Here's the pic of the frog spine left uncovered. I instructed the client to apply Tomorrow (mastititus treatment) every 3rd day for 3 weeks, then once weekly after that. Shoeing interval is 6 weeks this time due to tight purse strings, she's not used to paying even my base prices for shoeing, this one cost her double that.

Any suggestions?

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye-
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27421162142.jpg
Here's the pic of the frog spine left uncovered. I instructed the client to apply Tomorrow (mastititus treatment) every 3rd day for 3 weeks, then once weekly after that. Shoeing interval is 6 weeks this time due to tight purse strings, she's not used to paying even my base prices for shoeing, this one cost her double that.

Any suggestions?
Good suggestion to the client. Economics can be an issue for the soundness of a horse but with this type of foot and infectious thrush, horse owner is the key to success.
You may trying to rotate antibiotics and flossing the central sulcus or "Spine" with a 4x4 gauze to clean and apply some "Thrush Magic". Flossing can clean and debride loose materials that can contain the bacterium; feces, hays, grit and so forth.
Thrush Magic is an oxygenator; the sulcus is scissoring and irritated thus oxygen into an anaerobic enviroment gives the sulcus an opportunity to gain some continuity in a somewhat sterile enviroment.

[Corey M innick]

You may trying to rotate antibiotics and flossing the central sulcus or "Spine" with a 4x4 gauze to clean and apply some "Thrush Magic". Flossing can clean and debride loose materials that can contain the bacterium; feces, hays, grit and so forth.
Thrush Magic is an oxygenator; the sulcus is scissoring and irritated thus oxygen into an anaerobic enviroment gives the sulcus an opportunity to gain some continuity in a somewhat sterile enviroment.

This lady is very enthusiastic about treating the source of this guy's problem, I wish I had more clients like her. But like Kevin Costner knows "build it and they will come." I can't complain though.

On the next shoeing(and in the future), if the central sulcus deeply penetrated, and I need to use a pour in; can I use a medicated pad, such as Cusol? I have some Cusol pads that are no longer produced, and some new pads I got from an above average equine vet in the area. I don't have the name of the new pads in front of me, but you get the drift. Or is that mixing two chemicals that may have adverse results?

[Andrew Grimm]

On the next shoeing(and in the future), if the central sulcus deeply penetrated, and I need to use a pour in; can I use a medicated pad, such as Cusol? I have some Cusol pads that are no longer produced, and some new pads I got from an above average equine vet in the area. I don't have the name of the new pads in front of me, but you get the drift. Or is that mixing two chemicals that may have adverse results?


Hey Cory,
Leather is absorbent. Maybe you can medicate a leather pad? I'm not sure how good it would do with thrush but it's worth a try. Why do you suggest medicating a pad when using the medicated pour ins?


Andrew Grimm

[Gary Pfeiffer]

Andrew;
That's a perfect example of when you allow the owner to dictate, to a point the way the horse is shod.
It will cause no immediate harm to the horse and you have stated your opinion.
Not always are we able to convince the owners of the right track to follow.
All we can do is voice our concerns the best we can and hope that the owner is willing to listen.
There are times when their ideas will do harm to the horse in a short time. That is when I get pretty forceful about the way I am willing to shoe their horse. If I feel that strongly about our differences, that is when I refuse to go any further with the work.
I may loose that client but, I know that I did what I thought was best for the horse, and I never regret those choices. Even if I learn years later that the idea was right, I still feel I did what I thought was right at the time.

Gary

[Corey M innick]

Hey Cory,
Leather is absorbent. Maybe you can medicate a leather pad? I'm not sure how good it would do with thrush but it's worth a try. Why do you suggest medicating a pad when using the medicated pour ins?


Andrew Grimm

Sorry, the medicated pads I was referring to are 2" round cotton pads soaked in medication that I stuff down into the sulcus. Using these takes out the client's laziness factor in between shoeings. Also takes some of the blame off me when my directions aren't followed, and its still my fault.

Jaye brought up a good point with the deep bacterial infection of the frog. The Equipak copper sulfate can only treat and prevent what it can come into contact with, so that leaves the deep thrush to do what it does best: breed, and eat.

[Andrew Grimm]

Sorry, the medicated pads I was referring to are 2" round cotton pads soaked in medication that I stuff down into the sulcus. Using these takes out the client's laziness factor in between shoeings. Also takes some of the blame off me when my directions aren't followed, and its still my fault.

Jaye brought up a good point with the deep bacterial infection of the frog. The Equipak copper sulfate can only treat and prevent what it can come into contact with, so that leaves the deep thrush to do what it does best: breed, and eat.

I Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. I've seen others put medicated gauze pads in the deep infected central sulcus and put the pour ins over it however, I do believe they are still supposed to be changed. I've never tried it to see if it works but it would be interesting to see if and how good it works. NIce work by the way.

Andrew Grimm

[Jaye Perry]

Corey -This lady is very enthusiastic about treating the source of this guy's problem, I wish I had more clients like her. But like Kevin Costner knows "build it and they will come." I can't complain though.
Good, most customers leave it up to the farrier and vet to "cure" the maladies. Customers are 80% of the equation in a lameness or infection.


On the next shoeing(and in the future), if the central sulcus deeply penetrated, and I need to use a pour in; can I use a medicated pad, such as Cusol? I have some Cusol pads that are no longer produced, and some new pads I got from an above average equine vet in the area. I don't have the name of the new pads in front of me, but you get the drift. Or is that mixing two chemicals that may have adverse results

Sure, i have on occasion have shod the feet, packed the sulcus with cotton pads soaked or treated with medications and poured over the whole foot. usually with a dry medicate, Tucoprin, in which the sulcus is thoroughly cleaned first , treated and then covered. The covered enviroment is mostly sterile.

[tbloomer]

Have any of you tried Nolvasan (chlorhexidine diacetate), solution for flushing out these deep thrush infections? Have any of you tried White Lightning Gel?

I've had good results with both of these products. The White Lightning Gel dispenser has a tip that you can insert into the fissure in the sulcus and inject the product. This allows the owner to treat the sulcus even when you've covered the frog with a pad.

I buy the generic chlorhexidine solution from Southern States for $12.79/gal. One gallon mixed with water makes about 50gal of 2% solution. The brand name Nolvasan Solution costs about $35/gal. I use the diluted solution to wash and disinfect my hands (they also make a Nolvasan surgical scrub - same stuff, but sudzy). I keep a spray bottle of 2% mix on my rig. Squirt it on your hands, then wash it off with water. Takes away the thrush smell from your skin and disinfects open wounds. One of my customers, a medical doctor, told me that Nolvasan is a superior surgical scrub to betadyne. I like it because it doesn't burn when you use it on a cut or open wound.

[THamilton]

Tom,

You can also go to your Vet and get Nolvasan paste. I uesed it on a horse that had a cut. It works great. It is somewhat creamy and could be injected into the area with ease.

I have found that in the Sulcus areas, Q-Tips and a topical solution (iodine, bleach water, thrushbuster, hydrogine perioxide etc.) work well. Dip the Q-Tip into the solutions and push this through the central sulcus to clean and debride the area. I never use the same end more than once. The owner can do this as part of their treatment program and in most cases it does not matter if there is a shoe or not. Just an idea.

Tony

[HorseHelper]

Horsehelper; Your name says it all. We are there to service the clients needs but first and foremost the horses well being is the number one priority. Most owners are not familiar with anatomy and the mechanics of the horse enough to make those decisions. Way too often owners read advertisements in horse magazines and think that they have found the cure all for their horse.
It is your responsibility as a professional farrier to make the right decision to aid that horse. If their idea is flawed, do you just give in to the owner because they are with the horse 24/7.
Personally I would be willing to take the initiative to point out the flaws in their thinking and insist on doing the best for the horse.
Even some Veterinarian's have the same problem, they get some sales pitch on a product or a style of shoe and every horse that they see needs this.
WE have one vet that wants whip across bar shoes, just a plain bar is really what he wants but adding those two words makes him feel like he's really ordering something really special for your horse.
If you are not using your training, knowledge and experience to explain to the owners, trainers, or veterinarian the flaws in their thinking, then you are not doing the best for the horse that is relying on you to help him. He is the silent partner in all this and, it is your place to stand up for him. You are his only voice and you are the expert in this area.
I am willing to walk away from a client that is ill informed because that client would rather be sold something that will not help the horse than to listen to my expertise.
You want pads on your horse fine, I'll nail them on.
Why you need pads is the information that I need to decide if it will be wedges or frog support pads, etc.
Your reasons give me the information that I need to determine what is the best pad to use, using my experience, knowledge and training. Not some add that you read.
I have had clients insist that the vet said 45 deg. when it was 54 deg.
Most owners don't notice a bent shoe, and you want to trust their judgement on how to shoe their horse. Where is your pride and faith in the knowledge that you should possess.

Gary

Gary, All perfectly correct and valid points. If I know that what the owner is suggesting is wrong I will explain why, but listen to their points as well. I want to know everything about the horse in his/hers day to day life, not just the day I get there. I want to know what the owner feels, sees, and thinks, take that into consideration as well as all other aspects of the situation.
Most owners don't know enough to do their own horses, obviously, or they wouldnt be hiring someone else to, but they do have knowledge else where (proactive owners who take a serious interest in the health and well being of their animals) Not the backyard horse owner that picks up a Horse magazine and believes that the next craze is what their horse needs, BUT the well educated, professional owner.
For a farrier like some out there, not all, to say that these owners dont know a thing, call them names behind their backs, or charge them an outrageous amount just so they don't call them back is extremely unprofessional and innapporpriate, and to me seems that these so called farriers are only in it for their egos and the money.
Not trying to get on peoples goats here, but as a farrier,owner, and with clientel that know how to educate themselves it just urks me to read how some view their clients.

[Gallopinggirl]

The shoe is good. The object is to match the breakover one foot will be higher and one will be lower. Make sure the knees are matched and the point of the frog to the head of the toe matches on the ground side it will work.

[Gallopinggirl]

Wedge pad is a quick fix..I would use a wedge heel shoe.

[Rick Burten]

Wedge pad is a quick fix..I would use a wedge heel shoe.
Why is a wedge pad a quick fix and a wedge heel shoe isn't?

[Ronald Aalders]

Wedge pad is a quick fix..I would use a wedge heel shoe.


Why a wedge heel shoe? Don't you worry about those raised heels getting pushed in the sand, effectively reducing the angle you're trying to maintain?

Or are you not the worrying type?


Ronald Aalders

[Gallopinggirl]

The diffrence is a wedge shoe raises the heal from the ground surface up..a wedge pad will create a load which crushes the heal in the long run.

[SlowShoe]

The diffrence is a wedge shoe raises the heal from the ground surface up..a wedge pad will create a load which crushes the heal in the long run.

The end product is essentially the same as are the results you speek of.