Changes in AFA Certification Program

[Gary_Miller]

What do you all think about the new requirement to optain 24 CE hours in a two year period to maintain your certification and the new level of certification "Certified Tradesman Farrier"?

I think CE is important just not sure it needed to be tied to your already earned certification. I know other trades require it to maintain a license or certification but it looks as if it could endup being another avenue towards regulation/licensing.

As far as the CTF, I think it a good idea but still wounder why the AFA seems to think they have to put a time limit to the pratical part. Its not a contest its a test to see how well you can shoe a horse.

The last certificatioin I went to (It was also my first) I saw alot of good craftsman fail the pratical because of time limits. Most cases was because something went wrong and there was not time to go back and correct the problem.

For instent one young mans hand made ended up being 1/8 to a 1/4 inch short to fit the heels. He made a pour judgement and rasped the heel slightly to try and make it look right. Of course it was opivous and he failed. The point is I know this young man and he would have never done this if there had been time to go back and remake or rework the shoe.

Just some thought I had.

Gary

[calshoer]

I think that the CE credits would only valuable to improve the ability of the farrier to help horses IF that includes a required perentage of the education to be in the veterinary aspect fo the farriers work.
Ie: AAEP farrier lectures, veterinary supplied lectures on the equine foot,treating lameness with more modern science and materials and so on.
If the credits can all be earned in just forging clinics for example ,then I think the idea is pretty worthless to the horses.
There is still too much AFA emphasis on forging while far too little science to help the trade remain up to date in today's world. THAT needs to change. With the wide range of materials available now, forging is not the most important skill in this trade anymore when it comes to actually helping horses.
Patty

[Bryan Quinsey]

If you have recommendations to change the AFA's Certification program, please send them directly to the new Chairman of that Committee - Richard Becker, CJF - coalforge@chartermi.net

I'm sure that Dick will be pleased to share your ideas and concerns with his committee.

Bryan

[J.H. shoeing]

Hey Patty

I agree that we need the training. I don't get much out of lectures though. Should be another way to get the training besides sitting through a lecture. I am more of a hands on type learner. But if we are just making the time and nothing is expected to be retained a lecture will get everyone through the required topics. I have taught a lot of in-service classes that were boring.
Jeff

[Roy Amaral CJF]

For instent one young mans hand made ended up being 1/8 to a 1/4 inch short to fit the heels. He made a pour judgement and rasped the heel slightly to try and make it look right. Of course it was opivous and he failed. The point is I know this young man and he would have never done this if there had been time to go back and remake or rework the shoe.

Gary

What good would more time have done him if he failed to cut enough steel ? There's not much strech in a stamped shoe.

[Jason Maki]

I would say the time limits are an imperative category in any skills testing. Anyone who has ever played a sport or shown a horse knows you only get 80% at best in competition of what you do routineley in the bullpen session or practice ring: the PRESSURE of competing or time limit forces you to push the envelope. This external pressue will bring to the fore any deficincies or shortcomings. The time limits are their to rattle your cage and test your skill under less than ideal situations!
I nailed and finished four polished, shiny, emaculate shoes for my CJF...in ten minutes... because I puttered with the window dressing! I,ve never worked faster, or more efficiently than in that last ten minutes. I even had a minute to sand each foot! The test is designed to be the bottom of the ninth, bases loaded 2 out, three two count to Barry Bonds in the bottom of the ninth, tie score and your the away team. Fastball count, fastball hitter you've bounced two changes and your curve is rolling in like a batting practice chuckers deuce. Everybody from the bat boy to the hotdog vendor knows your throwing a sinker/two seaamer away; who in their right mind would pitch Bonds inside, especially in the clutch? You shake off a sign, just to try to get him to guess, he doesnt bite, wags his bat and creeps up on the plate, knowing imortality lies 60 feet 6 inches away, held looseley in your sweating hand. He knows that ball is going to sink down and away, he knows he can sit back and poke that tailer down the left feild line and 162 plus games of struggle will culminate in a a world championship! He knows your hook is more like a kiddie coaster, he knows you are scared. You must disect the bottom right hand corner of a 21 inch square twnety yards away, or this season ends in ignomious defeat. The fate of millions of fans, twenty five teamates and your next contract rests on the ONLY pitch left open to you. You are a soft tosser, you only show the fastball, it's rareley a solid strike This is like lighting a blue tip match with a horsehide projectile! You go back to the wind up, rock back and load your weight over your back foot. You feel fluid and smooth, only peripheraly aware of the stinking cold sweat pooling aginst your back, stopped by the dam of your belt. Your arm flows back, and your mass is thrust towards the Hurculean figure weilding a club,. Every ounce of his strenght, every bit of skill and experience gleaned and honed over an illustrious twenty year carrer is poised, ready to iviscerate your offering, send it slicing into the left feild corner and tragedy. The momentum of your body pulls your arm forward, you can feel the individual stitches of the two seams your index and middle finger are resting against. Your wrist rolls back snaps forward, your fingers exert every last vestige of power your body can create and transfer this power and a prayer into the ball. Your follow through lands you square. Your eyes target the ball , following its trajectory. It starts towards the batter, right into the kill zone. Barry's eyes light up, you can hear his thoughts
"Ambush is murder and murder is fun"
He commits, opens his hips and strides...
Will that ball snap down and away....?
Thats the CJF test, and I think that how it it should be.
JMO
Jason Maki

[Red Amor]

Struth!! Mate!!!

an exclamation or verifacation , realiseation like


BE BUGGERED

[Rick Burten]

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Jason,

You left out the part where the pitcher feels the steroid enhanced testosterone and adrenelin coursing through his body, right down into those finger tips. Suddenly he becomes enraged. Who is this Barry Bonds anyway? What makes him think he can hit a pitch of mine? He steps off the rubber. No, it isn't a balk. He works his teeth hard into the fist sized lump of Beechnut that has caused a cancerous sore on his lips and gums. He swallows the rich, saliva freed juices and feels them course down his burning esophogus and into the roiling acid bath of his bleeding and ulcerous stomach. None of that matters. The non-detectable andronondrotestohypohippoestromegadolladone has turned him into a berserker monster whose control is perfect, whose speed rivals Mercury.

He steps back onto the rubber, the rest, you already know. Except for one thing. He never gets to see the outcome. For as Barry starts to swing, a major blood vessel in his brain explodes. Too late he remember the warnings about the enhancement program he was using.

Whose 'roids were superior? his or Barry's? He''ll never know.

But, if you are well prepared you will know the outcome. For, when it is all said and done, your examiner and tester will walk up to you and shake your hand and congratulate you on a job well done. Or, they will take you aside to explain to you where and why you were unable to successfully complete the certification. Either way, your journey is not over. Rather, you are at a way station. Whether you continue your trip or not is up to you.

Barry's trip is just about over. His train is pulling into its next to last stop. Whether he can ride it to the end remains to be seen. Unlike him, your train has a lot of stops to make, a lot of places to go. Stay on board and enjoy the journey.

Rick

[calshoer]

JH, learning about fixing lameness does not have to be all lectures even though lectures are an important part of learning about TRUE causes of lameness and how to fix them. Common lameness causes like internal hoof imbalance, run under heels, subtle hoof distortion that may look fine from a traditional view ,recognizing weak digital cushions with resulting negative plane P3's, and so on.

Unfortuately there are not a lot of hands on seminars that specialize in lameness but there are SOME.
"Soundfest", at Mission Farrier school in Washington state,and of course the numerous NB hands on clinics (the last day of those is devoted to shoeing lame horses).
There needs to be MORE of those kind of specialized clinics put on by MORE people.
The AFA and affiliates should provide clinics where navicular and laminitic horsers are brought in, radiographed, discussed, the****utically shod, then re radiographed so you can see the results of your work both clinically and in the internal changes you may have made in things like bone alignment and breakover and so on. . That is the kind of learning experience that is common in NB clinics and Soundfest. And SHOULD be a much bigger part of the AFA clinics but unfortunately instead they seem to want mostly clinics for mainly forging . And especially conterst forging. My personal "wins" come from fixing the horse because I have been taught to tecognize the true deeper problems that are CAUSING the lameness, not from hand making the shoes to fix it. Patty

[Bill Adams]

Thanks for bringing up Barry Bonds so this Giants fan can feel worse.
Patty, a fellow, Dave Ferguson who I was told wrote the CF writen test, spoke at the NCC two weeks ago. One of his main points was that the "Forge" people and the "Anatomy" have got to get together. He lectured quite well on laminitis and worked the iron as one of the best.
The whole convention seemed to be based around anatomy.
I think is coming along and is good.
As to what the certification has taught me (I just have to get my shoe board right), is that I can do very good work fast. Contest too. That helps me in the real world.
My $0.02,
Bill

[calshoer]

The whole convention seemed to be based around anatomy.
I think is coming along and is good.


Well that is some improvement. Patty

[Roy Amaral CJF]

I've never been to a "forging clinic" that didn't lead to discussion of anatomy, balance, hoof distortion, laminitis and many of the other aspects of horseshoeing. I think you'd be surprised how many of us ironbeeters have bones in our houses, shops, trucks........

Our trade requires us to do a lot of different things, and we all have strong and weak areas. But I'm not going to pretend the things I don't do as well as I'd like aren't important. How do you get better with that point of view? :(

[calshoer]

Roy though I do know there are journeymen like you who have been around long enough to know about anatomy and so on and actually care, there are so many others (some I have known personally) who don't give a rats arse about anatomy exept to memorize the parts fo the test and they go to lots of forging clinics just to make shoes to win contests. I went to a Bob Marshall clinic in Ca some years ago and there was not ONE mention of hoof balance or treating lameness. It was all metal work.

And I don't even really want to get in the AFA standards of "hoof balance" . But I will because I can't help myself.
Given the constant stream of good research coming in from the likes of Mike Savoldi, Bob Bowker, Jean Marie Denoix, Gene Ovnicek, etc, etc,
the XYZ balance is on damn shaky ground. And forget T-squares and guages.

What should be getting taught instead at the AFA clinics (If they REALLY want to educate to make BETTER farriers) is reading the *foot* itself for locating and balancing the structures INSIDE it. Finding the sole plane and why it is relative to medial lateral balance. Determining if the foot has a weak digital cushion with negative plane by reading the shape of the dorsal wall,frog and sole ,and what to do to help it.
Locating the tip of P3 inside the foot without Xrays and placing breakover relative to THAT structure instead of perimeter fitting , and why it is important to the horse. How to insure a heel first landing and WHY it is so important.
. Do they teach THAT at forging clinics?

As well when it comes to treating laminitic feet ,there is so much that is SO much more important than forging a shoe for that foot . Armed with a thorough understnding of the mechanics involved in ALL the structures of that individual laminitic foot , and a plethora of modern materials to choose from, a farrier can treat this quite effectively without forging a single thing. The medical knowledge of laminitis is more important than forging. I have NEVER forged a special shoe to treat laminitis. What is needed is a more thorough understanding of the mechanics that are happening to every part of that foot and how to fix it and frankly heart bar shoes (which I am sure they are teaching at these forging clinics when the discuss laminitis?) are not necessary.
Patty

[T.N. Trosin]

One thing about it is that we can't accuse Patty of being open minded.
Back to the subject:
As I understand it, you are only really required to attend 2 clinics a year (one days) or one Major clinic a year (2 or more days). Even at that rate I don't believe that the AFA should be able to strip your certification once you EARNED IT. For years AFA Certification was sold as an achievement a personal test of will and skill, cause Lord knows any benefit that you got out of it was either shear luck or taken away by the AFA.
I have only had one person ask me if I was certified, and then they didn't hire me because they thought I was too expensive.
I had a nice chat with Pat Gallahan about my certification. I told him as I will tell Dick Becker or anybody else who ever tries to take it away from me. I was Certified by Bill Searle and Mark Paine, I had to endure Emil Carre (GRHS) mouthing off about platers while I took my practical, You will pry my Certification out of my cold dead hands.

[Red Amor]

DINEOMITE !!!, good on ya T,N.T iI would feel the same way , let em try

[calshoer]

Tom,
Despite our diferences in horseshoeing theory, I agree that once a person has earned a certificate of any kind it should not be stripped except for some really gross negligence or deliberatly harming a horse. (something like one old crass shoer I knew who deliberately cut all 4 feet on a yearling so short as to bleed just to spite the owner. That weasel should have been tossed in jail for animal cruelty..now THAT would warrant revokation of a certificate I think.)

Perhaps a far better thing would to be able to earn "extra stars" on your certificate for extra education in variouis skills.

Now as to ME not being open minded, if I was truly close minded I would not have been OPEN to looking closely and sceptically at new (and what seemed a bit radical at the time) shoeing theory and then changing my ways after fourteen years of doing it the way I was taught . ;) It was that very open mindedness that brought me to where I am today, and what KEEPS me continuing to learn.
*I* looked at newer infiormation in great depth before I decided I needed to change the way I was doing things, but it seems that some folks won't even try. Now who are the closed minded ones ....?
Patty

[Derin Foor]

once a person has earned a certificate of any kind it should not be stripped except for some really gross negligence or deliberatly harming a horse. (something like one old crass shoer I knew who deliberately cut all 4 feet on a yearling so short as to bleed just to spite the owner. That weasel should have been tossed in jail for animal cruelty..now THAT would warrant revokation of a certificate I think.)


Perhaps a far better thing would to be able to earn "extra stars" on your certificate for extra education in variouis skills.


I agree that the certification should be yours forever once you have earned it(continuing ed. or not) and I agree that an animal cruelty act would justify losing one's certification, however....the problem in revoking a certification as in the example you gave, is WHO is going to determine what would constitute having it removed?...AAEP?, AFA?, local chapter?.....this gets us back onto a very slippery slope IMO

I was thinking about this on the way home tonight.....how about C.E. credits that would ac***ulate based on sanctioned AFA events such as seminars, forging clinics, etc.....Rick, help me out here...you always manage to come up with mile long acronyms for such a situation :D

I can count on one hand how many customers have ever asked me if I was certified, so obviously it wouldnt be for them, but the C.E. designations would let other professionals (vets, farriers, etc) know how up to date your Certification is....just a thought


Derin

[Dave Purves]

My dad is a CPA (Certified Public Accountant), which is a step above the regular run of the mill accountant. Every year he is required to obtain so many CE credits to maintain his Certification. The CE credits are as easy as taking a small test that comes in the Accounting magazine that he recieves, he mails in the answer portion and that's that. He can also get credits for attending seminars and conventions. He's been the General Manager of Accounting for a rather large manufacturing firm for a very long time, so alot of the questions on the tests, and seminars that he attends don't really apply to him, they're more about business taxes and changes to tax codes, were he spends his days figuring out how much money this business can spend to buy out that business and so forth. But he maintains his certification because he gets a higher salary for it, and he stays up to date with new information that comes out and he is poised to open his own firm or work for a large accounting firm if he needs to. The funny thing is, that when you go to AFA clinics, or seminars most of those guys are the ones that are certified or working towards it anyway. The ones that only attend the convention for the marketplace aren't generally certified. CE credits would only help enhance our credibility. Really I'd like to see our basic education get harder. I personally wish that I would've or could've attended and recieved a 4 year degree in farriery, and I believe that it could and should be done that way. Too many self taught hacks can't recognize simple gait problems, or mild lameness, and then if you can recognize it, you can't really diagnose it, or shoe it accordingly without breaking the law. (see the other thread).
Dave

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Just to clear this up- There is no AFA way of shoeing horses.

There is a system your going to have to follow if you want to pass at certification or do well at an AFA contest. The system exists to help eliminate the subjective parts of horseshoeing and focus on clearly defined expectations.

The AFA puts out a pamphlet titled "Guidelines for Evaluating Farrier Competitions and Certifications" so anyone taking a test or competing at the convention knows exactly what's expected.

This was never intended to be policy on how AFA members are to shoe horses.

Here's the Preface straight from Randy Lukart:
http://home.comcast.net/~royamaral/untitled.bmp

[Phantom Farrier]

Certification - It's not so much the destination as it is the journey.

Phantom

[calshoer]

Roy, sure that is what it SAYS in wirting , but the words of too many very current influential members of the AFA overt) speak otherwise when it somes to HONESTLY and UNBIASEDLY looking onto and reporting all the newer research and techniques.
Even the worshipful company of Farriers is formally adopting Natural balance teachings into part of their curriculum.
BTW Phantom, I TOOK that 'trip' to certification and passed the written and practical (and I was the ONLY one that day to pass the practical and Emil was my examiner) and after I failed the clips and rockertoe (the rockertoe thing was chicken**** really).AND they told everybody after they began that they would not allow a wedge pad to meet the 'raise the hoof angle' requirement so I went outside and banged out a swelled heel shoe on the spot. Which I hadn't done since school some fifteen years prior, and it passed. :p

I decided to never go back to re-do the shoe board because I decided I would not take a certification from an orguinaztion that requires you to shoe ANY horse, even a test day horse, to those perimeter fit specs. And even though they say that it is "only a test" and you don't have to do it every day, that is what the AFA DOES inadvertantly promote, because everyone is PRACTICING that very thing in all their everyday horses in order to pass the damn test.
Even that test day horse I did deserved to be shod more to what HE needed, not some test specs. No horse EVER deserves to be shod in a manner that is not he very best for him, even so someone can get a certificate.
That is why I am going for the Guild certificate instead. The let you decide what is best fo the horse and then you have to do just that. With handmades, In a time limit. Just like the AFA.
Patty

[handandhammer]

WOW you really showed them!

[calshoer]

I wasn't trying to "show"anyone anything. By deciding not to certify with the AFA I just made a decision that felt right for ME. The point was that I could have finished it easily by just re doing two elements on the shoe board . That post was mostly for anyone who mught think I just don't want to take the 'trip 'to certification. I done that been there. And will do it again ,only this time with the Guild.
Patty

[Bill Adams]

At the AFA sponcered NCC last month, along with the certification, contests, AFA Team demos, Mike Savoldi was a featured speaker and had the most attended wet lab.
And Tom showed his open mindedness by accepting the offer of a micro brew ale from me he had never even heard of before.
I would say these events show the start of a change to the better.
As to the little snip from the person afraid to give their name I'm sure they hide behind their anonimity to protect their inadequacys.
My $0.02,
Bill

[IRNWKR_2]

Patty, so you believe that out of all the horses that have ever walked, or will walk the face of the earth would benifit from a perimeter fit shoeing

[Gary Hill]

Patty, correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be fully qualified as a Journeyman before the Guild will take you? Seems to me one is feeding off the other? Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with either one but was reading though some material and it came up? Just wondering? Gary

[calshoer]

I don't think you finished your post???
I'll try to answer anyway.
I believe that perimeter fitting any shoe without at least a rolled or rocker toe is detriental to the horse in the long term, with the exception of surgical intervention of club foot.
All horses.
In other words even in the VERY RARE domestic foot that already has the short natural distance from P3 to the worn in breakover point, the edge of the shoe if it is perimeter fit should have a rolled design to maintain that breakover point. (half round, St Croix eventer, etc.)
NO equine foot is designed to break over the very outer edge of the hoofwall. And there is good biological reason for that. And nature prevents the perimeter from becoming the breakover point by making the stratum externum more brittle that the stratum medium, so the edge can remain rolled away.
As well, the sole callous is the determinig spot for optimal breakover beause it is DESIGNED to be more dense , with longer papillae and horn tubules than the rest of the sole. That denser callous determines where breakover occurs because the toe rolls off ahead of it, because it is SUPPOSED to.

So yes, In my opinion, given all the good research coming from all over the world, perimeter fitting a FLAT edged shoe is detrimental to the horse, even in the rare "perfect foot".
Forcing the breakover out to the edge of the wall negatively affects DDFT tendon tension patterns, movement of the bones within the coffin joint, the impar ligament, the navicualar bones, as well as the whole horses musculature as he compensates to get his feet breaking over in tome with the leg.

The only very rare exception to the perimeter fit flat shoe would be in a few VERY specific the****utic cases such as shoeing in conjunction with ICL surgery for a club foot. And in those surgical caess it is only appropriate until the ligament heals back together, a few weeks at most.
Patty

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
I could be mistaken, but I do not think the rules proscribe rolling the toe on your shoe. Perhaps Mr. Rick could ansewer that.
Just a thought: could the toe callous under PIII happen because the horn and sole can't wear back any farther? The tip of PIII precludes it...?
Jason
PS I think to join the Guild you must either pass their RJF test, have passed your AFA CJF (I would also assume an AWCF would be okay to) or both. I could be wrong, but I think those be d'rules. If you want actual information, I would post on the guild site and find out: I'm only guessing!

[Jaye Perry]

[QUOTE=Jason Maki]Patty,
........a thought: could the toe callous under PIII happen because the horn and sole can't wear back any farther? The tip of PIII precludes it...?
Jason
...QUOTE]


I am not picking a fight or maybe I am; just my thoughts. If one pigeon holes' oneself into a certain methodology one doesn't have the distintict understanding of the horse; it's lower leg mechanics.
Using "ALL" available information/methodologies tells me your a good farrier; with a well rounded appreciation of the "WHOLE" Horse. I refer to this qoute as Rooney states in the Basic Mechanics of the Hoof and Horseshoe; on this site-

“Consideration … on the studying of feet will show how incorrect much of the interpretation of the shape and wear patterns have been. This has led to some of the most bizarre shoeing and trimming systems that demonstrate how ""_wonderfully adaptable_"" the horse is even in the most misguided human inferences " :cool:

[calshoer]

Gary, the roll toe was on one required element of the shoe board. Since they didn't say WHERE to begin the roll (obviously where to roll it in the field is determined by the actual horse in question) I had rolled it about 2/3 back through the web of the shoe. The examiner said roll it further back (at the back edge of the web) so I go out to the truck, reshape that same shoe and the examiner THEN says.."well even though the shoe still fits the pattern, now you have a line that shows (on the FOOT surface of the shoe) from the original place it was rolled!" ,
Gimmeabreak, even the horse could not have seen it on that side of the web when it was nailed to the foot.

As for the Guild, in order to join you must be a working farrier for at least four years before you can take the test, and the test is RJF. That is the only level they have. You do not have to already be a CJF with the AFA to take the guild test and join. I don't know about them still grandfathering in AFA journeymen....Rick?
Jason, the sole callous reflects the ege of P3, and obviously if it were not denser than the rest of the sole (and the wall) the foot would routinely wear into the bone. Makes perfect sense to me then why the sole callous is the regulating structure for breakover point.


As to subscribing to one methodology,
well the methodology I subscribe to now allows and guides me a good simple way to apply quite individualized shoeing for each foot. :D

Since it is the foot's structures itself, and the footfall that determine exactly how to balance THAT foot , where to place breakover, and even deterimines if the horse needs extra help like wedges or frog support to make up for missing or weak internal structure.
This is not at all a one size fits all shoeing even though it is one methodology. By using this one methodology which is based on LOTS of new information (and still evolving as more information comes in) , each shoeing is accurately individualized for each horse. This one methodology helps me do that better .
Patty

[calshoer]

Oh, and PS Jason,
Since being introduced to and studying this one methodology as deeply as I have, I am fairly confident that I have as good or better understanding as ust about anybody of not only the lower leg but how the feet and legs affect the whole horse and visa versa . Even more than a few veterinarians.
And certainly ten times more than they taught me with the old shoeing theories that never made much sense to me back in school.
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

.............

As to subscribing to one methodology,
well the methodology I subscribe to now allows and guides me a good simple way to apply quite individualized shoeing for each foot. :D
Since it is the foot's structures itself, and the footfall that determine exactly how to balance THAT foot , where to place breakover, and even deterimines if the horse needs extra help like wedges or frog support to make up for missing or weak internal structure.
This is not at all a one size fits all shoeing even though it is one methodology. By using this one methodology which is based on LOTS of new information (and still evolving as more information comes in) , each shoeing is accurately individualized for each horse. This one methodology helps me do that better .
Patty


That's what I am talking about!!!

If it, a methodology, helps your horses by hell keep going at it. ;) It keeps the lights on and food on the table.
Consider the varied terrains and enviroments; foremost consider conformation and disipline.
AFA, GPF and others need to realize and recognize other "ways" to nail a hide.

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
I only asked about the sole callous... :D
Jason

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Roy, sure that is what it SAYS in wirting , but the words of too many very current influential members of the AFA overt) speak otherwise when it somes to HONESTLY and UNBIASEDLY looking onto and reporting all the newer research and techniques.
Patty

Patty,

If you're speaking for someone else here, want to let us know who it is and what they said to you?

[Jaye Perry]

Oh, and PS Jason,
Since being introduced to and studying this one methodology as deeply as I have, I am fairly confident that I have as good or better understanding as ust about anybody of not only the lower leg but how the feet and legs affect the whole horse and visa versa . Even more than a few veterinarians.
And certainly ten times more than they taught me with the old shoeing theories that never made much sense to me back in school.
Patty


Have to agree with the lady about "most" vets not being able to grasp shoeing mechanics. That separates most professional farriers from the "Hacks" in a lot of cases.
In considerstion of Mr. Maki i also have to agree with him, the sole callous regieme is over rated and IMO is due to a "trauma" induced situation caused by mechanical streching/disfunction of the horn ,laminae and foot mechanics. This is done by pulling the shoe off the toe "to Many times" without reguard of leg and foot conformation.

IE- Foot issues such as side bone or ringbone: the foot will produce an abnormal amout of sole. WHY?- Disruption of "normal foot function"; self preservation.

Any protocal in which a shoe or any shoe is pulled off the toe for an extended amount of time will disrupt normal foot function. Elimination of the "Laminar Arch" over a period of time will produce the same effect that one is trying to correct. LTLH Syndrome in most cases. IMO. :D

[Jaye Perry]

There is a system your going to have to follow if you want to pass at certification or do well at an AFA contest. The system exists to help eliminate the subjective parts of horseshoeing and focus on clearly defined expectations.

These "expectations" are out dated.

The AFA puts out a pamphlet titled "Guidelines for Evaluating Farrier Competitions and Certifications" so anyone taking a test or competing at the convention knows exactly what's expected.

Most making a living shoeing a horse do not compete in contests; they compete for business.



This was never intended to be policy on how AFA members are to shoe horses.

Then what is it for ? The lame horses that i get upon refferal from vets and owners are from the certified group(s) of farriers. The biggest reason I get these refferals is that within the so called "standards of farriery" there is no testing of how to read a basic set of x-rays.
If one hangs their shingle out and says "I are a certified farrier" and can't read a basic set of x-rays something is wrong with the "standard" testing proceedures and protocals.
This is just one problem of many of testing in/by/for antiquated standards. JMO :)

[Phantom Farrier]

The horse isn't interested in methods, only results! Why should anything else matter?

Horses feet are able to adapt, then re-adapt to whatever new insult they are subjected to. Polymorphic. People seem to be like that too.

I shoe horses to the most exacting standards every day. Thats all AFA certification is - exacting standards to test your skill level - so what's the big deal?

Phantom

[calshoer]

In considerstion of Mr. Maki i also have to agree with him, the sole callous regieme is over rated and IMO is due to a "trauma" induced situation caused by mechanical streching/disfunction of the horn ,laminae and foot mechanics. This is done by pulling the shoe off the toe "to Many times" without reguard of leg and foot conformation.

Sorry if I got Jaye and Jason mixed up the first time on my about the callous question.
Now, to both of you.
I think you are usign a different definition of what IS "sole callous for the purposes of discusion about NB and breakover.

In reference to MY definition of sole callous and its siginificance to NB techniques, it is NOT an abnormal thick layer of sole at all.
It is found AFTER the foot is exfoliated, after any abnormal dead or retained sole is removed.
It is just that subtle raised curve of LIVE sole that is present in ALL horses normal feet. Not just NB prepared feet.
You can feel it with your fingers on most exfoliated soles, (as long as you did not pare it out) and if you are CAREFUL with your knife the blade while yo exfoliate you can feel the knife find that harder little ridge around the toe area(that's the callous) AND if you remove retained sole by paring through the thick layers with with your nippers from the frog apex outward you can feel the blade sort of go "HUMP" over the callous. I am sure you all have felt that. It is NOT a layer of dead sole, it is a definite structure and is LIVE sole.

EVERY foot, shod, unshod, traditionally shod, NB shod, wild, domestic has a sole callous, UNLESS the farrier has pared or rasped through it. I find the callous in every foot I do, even the first time.

If you pare the sole to a concave shape all the way to the whiteline, (to avoid sole pressure from the shoe) you removed the callous.
And if you do that repeatedly, the terminal papillae(which generate the callous) may be damaged and the callous will have a much longer time regenerating.
Therefore a lot of TRADITIONALLY shod feet that have no callous because it has been removed. THOSE feet are hte ones that undergo the toe stretching, NOT correctly prepared and fitted NB feet. Toes come BACK over time and soles become more concave when I do them.
The reason NB feet have a sole callous is that it has been *preserved*. It was there naturally and was not removed by the farrier .

The sole callous is a very real and everyday structure that is found in every foot that has not been soled out or flattened too far with the rasp .

The terminal papillae that grow from the solar margin of the coffin bone are LONGER than the papillae generating the rest of the sole. (Dr Chris Pollitt)That means the generate LONGER LIVE sole horn tubules around that area.And the papillae in the toe corners are longer yet
,which explains Duckett's "Pillars".
Even HE didn't know exactly what they were, but now we do . :D )

The resulting callous, a SUBTLE ridge of longer LIVE sole horn tubules around the margin pf P3 certainly IS a protective and supportive structure for P3. Pare it out (just normal "sole shaping with the knife " like most farrier schools teach) and P3 immediately drops down some in the foot. And the toe stretches forward, and the sole flattens because the sole / wall junction is weakened. THAT is not part of NB shoeing.
If you are seeing continually flattened soles, NEWLY stretched forward toes or toe corners, or dorsal wall dubbed clear back to the shoe on NB shod horses, someone in your area is doing it wrong.

Because the callous is more dense than the hoof wall in the toe area, it stops the toe wear there. Hence, the breakover point found in ALL bare feet naturally, DOMESTIC OR FERAL.
Since the callous grows out to the ground at the same angle as the dorsal aspect of P3, the breakover point then is naturally worn in at about 1/4" ahead of the tip of P3. It isn't there by accident.

So I completely disagree that a sole callous, (in THIS definition of live structure) is grown in response to any abnormal trauma or trimming.

In fact if the toe OR the sole is over-trimmed repreatedly, (part of a lot of traditional farriery to try to "get the angles up") the callous *disappears* as the toe gets stretched forward and the sole flatened from the constant weakening. THEN it takes a lot longer to grow back.

You are correct that is it wrong to set toes back arbritrarily. In NB There is a very specific way to place breakover point , relative to the coffin bone and the sole callous determines that.
If there is no excess toe beyond that point ,great, don't set it back (but DO use a rolled edge shoe) .
However very, very few domestic feet have toes that stay where they belong if they are perimeter fit. This is because the sole callous gets carved out repeatedly to either create clearance udner the shoe, or to try to"shorten the toe" for hoof angles or whatever.(Butler even says is the angles look low to trim "as much as posible from the toe"....well HOW much is THAT? In my book it is to the callous, not one milimeter more. I was taught to trim those until the sole flexed a little under my thimbs.....well doing just THAT destroys the sole callous. And might possibly traumatize the terminal papillae. Anybody ever bleed one just a little bit on a toe corner with that last swipe of the rasp? That was the end of some papillae you probably cut off. And if you do that , it is possible the damaged papillae can't properly generate the horn from from it's the tip.

The reason YOU GUYS probably don't ever see the callous in your own clients is because it has been destroyed.

Unless it has been destroyed by the farrier It IS there and is an identifiable part in EVERY natural foot even if they never saw a farrier in their lives. Domestic ,feral ,doesn't matter. ALL feet.

Even foals have a sole callus, I can find it in every one. Foals walk on the frog and sole callous from the first day they are born, as soon as that soft baby wall wears off.
Patty

[Donnie Walker]

I do my best to not voice opinions without research, or personal experience to support them, so, in this instance I must concur with the above post by Patty. I've been there, done that, saw that, regarding the sole callous being removed, and the devastation that occurred to the foot afterwards, but, unfortunately, I was not recognizing and acknowledging the negative effects until I started using Natural Balance trim guidelines. I don't use NB shoes on all horses, but I do honor the trim. The feet I care for now are in much better shape than they were before, and the body/joint soreness issues appear to have subsided, except where DJD is involved. Having a herd of my own allows me the opportunity to observe the positive/negative aspects on a daily basis. You are 100% right regarding the callous on the foals.

[Phil Armitage]

Just to clear this up- There is no AFA way of shoeing horses.

There is a system your going to have to follow if you want to pass at certification or do well at an AFA contest. The system exists to help eliminate the subjective parts of horseshoeing and focus on clearly defined expectations.

The AFA puts out a pamphlet titled "Guidelines for Evaluating Farrier Competitions and Certifications" so anyone taking a test or competing at the convention knows exactly what's expected.

This was never intended to be policy on how AFA members are to shoe horses.

Here's the Preface straight from Randy Lukart:
http://home.comcast.net/~royamaral/untitled.bmp

Roy of course there is an AFA way of shoeing, get a horse with a broken back axis and your hoof/pasturn angle points is going to be low unless you trim the toe too short and if you trim the toe too short it will not reflect on your points. So the AFA way of shoeing is the toe calouse is not even recognized even though new research has proven it to be a very supportive and protective structure. This sends the wrong message to new farriers they tell experienced farriers that just do this to pass the test and then do it right in your day to day work. Brilliant advice from an orginzation that believes in the saying "No Foot No Horse". I would love to hear you argue this one.

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Unless it has been destroyed by the farrier It IS there and is an identifiable part in EVERY natural foot even if they never saw a farrier in their lives. Domestic ,feral ,doesn't matter. ALL feet.


Wow, I can destroy something nature cannot.-- I must be mightier than I thought. :cool:

[Bill Adams]

Roy,
We are mighty. We can screw things up big time. Imagine looking at the buffalo heards or flocks of passanger pidgons a hundred and fifty years ago. Waisting a horses foot with a set of nips, rasp and knife aint too hard.
Bill

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Roy,
We are mighty. We can screw things up big time. Imagine looking at the buffalo heards or flocks of passanger pidgons a hundred and fifty years ago. Waisting a horses foot with a set of nips, rasp and knife aint too hard.
Bill

I agree, but nature does pretty well in the destruction department too.

[slidinPlate]

roy nature does it out of course and we do it out of ignorance!

Don

[calshoer]

Wow, I can destroy something nature cannot.-- I must be mightier than I thought.


The knife and nippers and a sharp rasp are very destructive tools,something nature did not count on.

.I agree, but nature does pretty well in the destruction department too


Nature designs and builds what is needed in a foot , SHE does not remove it.
I have NEVER seen a bare foot ,domestic or otherwise that did not have a very distinguishable sole callous. But I HAVE seen plenty of man made ones lacking that essential structure. Nature will always try to rebuild what we took away if it was supposed to be there in the first place. . Ie: the sole callous.
It WILL eventually grow back even if some human with a tool in their hands whacks it out othe foot. But in the meantime while nature is trying to repair our screw ups, other deterimental secndary changes will occur, some not nearly as repairable. Like solar margin P3 damage.
Patty

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Bill, Slidinplate, Patty,

You take me way to seriously. Did you really think I don't know we can damage a foot with shoeing tools?

It was a joke meant to lighten the mood in here.

I apologize.

[Bill Adams]

Oh. Never mind then.
Bill

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=calshoer]

>Nature designs and builds what is needed in a foot , SHE does not remove it.

Hi Patty

Since I'm willing to play the devil's advocate(imagine that :D ) here, if we take that statement at face value, how do we reconcile it with our removal of quarter flares, toe dishes/flares, high heels, underrun heels, etc(assuming of course that these conditions are not the result of human intervention).


Phil

We all have to understand that the AFA is not promoting one specific method for shoeing all horses. And the AFA states so quite clearly. What they do have is a set of guidelines and for certification a specific Rx that is used to judge in a standardized form. While we can argue the merits or lack there of of this kind of testing, it serves the purposes of the organization which was/has been charged with the responsibility of developing a testing paradigm that is as uniformly equal across the board as is humanly possible.

And, while I do agree that whenever humans are involved there is always going to be a degree of subjectivity(when the result/outcome is not a "yes/no;true/false", etc answer), the AFA has been working hard to keep all its examiners and testers 'on the same page'.

Because of the inherent nature of a standardized test, and particularly in this case, we are concerned with shoeing only the hoof/hooves, without regard for the rest of the individual. The other side of that coin is the 'field/practical' test such as that of the Guild of Professional Farriers, where each horse is fully evaluated as a whole and then a trimming/shoeing protocol is devised for that individual. Even with this method, there is a large area of subjectivity, both in the proposed protocol and in the end result, involved. And, since the guidelines for evaluating the results are rather broad, it is conceivable that a passing job under one examiner might not be so under another.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no perfect answer. Because, early on, I realized that , I elected to stand for and pass, the certification process' of both the AFA and the GPF.

I also like the idea/concept/reality of Continuing Education requirements and I think that as the AFA requirements evolve, we will see that they will be more focused on non-forging education with shoeing/forgework becoming adjunctive to the 'classroom' education.

The fact that the AFA has a 'vet-farrier liason' committee and that there are several veterinarians that are members of the AFA and that the AFA works with the various veterinary schools by providing "short courses" for student vets, indicates to me that the AFA is trying to get beyond the 'iron banging' mentality that it has , rightly or wrongly, been saddled with. Further, many of the clinics that I have attended that have AFA members as clinicians, are done in such a manner that problems and issues involving the horse and its anatomy/physiology are the primary focus, with trimming/shoeing options being part of the treatment. This often involves forge work and I have no problem with that. For me, part of the problem is that many clinic attendees are so lacking in basic knowledge, that it becomes quite difficult to structure a clinic that will appeal to if not everyone, then at least, the majority.

As with any organization, there are some problems at/in the AFA. I think that many of them are being worked on and even as big a critic as I can be/have been, I am seeing some progress.

Rick

[Phil Armitage]

Well I cannot deny that there has not been improvement. There is improvement as we speek. Just this thread is evidence of that. The reason I am still a member, is because I also see improvement and high standards. It cerntainly is no easy task to make changes and figure out what is the best method to test and certify farriers. I do however believe it is an easy task for AFA Leadership to find out about methods like Natural Balance first hand and then give there opinion. We all should do this, seek to understand and then be understood. As an individual craftsman, I had to realize that I had no right to an opinion about any protocal without learning first hand, so I did and to my suprise I learned a better way of doing things. I am finding many farriers are incorporateing both sides Traditional and New methods in there practice and are haveing much more success. We need to learn how to read the feet, learning the structures of the foot and what they do is basicly paying atttention to detail. Many of the older text that I have read emphasise the importance of paying attention to detail, visualizeing what is going on internaly of the foot and working with what mother nature put there. The problem that I have with the current AFA standards is how it out and out disregards how individual each horse and there feet are. I would think the important message to send to new farriers is there is no one way to do things and there is a lot to learn and this is subjective. We need to develop all the skills we can to read feet and basicly do what a set of X-Rays would do for us maybe even better. The more I learn the more I can see. I have read comments on how Farriers do not have X-Ray vison, I disagree this is a skill that can be developed finer and finer with time and learning. It is difficult for those who do not practice this trade, horse owner, Vets, Trainers and so on to understand how much a Farrier can see and feel. It is like any other craftsperson, the more you learn and do the better we get at it. Just because one person cannot see does not mean nobody can.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage]
>The problem that I have with the current AFA standards is how it out and out disregards how individual each horse and there feet are.

Basically, yes, I agree. But that is the nature of a standardized test. For the time frame of the certification, the general needs of the entire system(the horse) are disregarded and the feet are treated as a separate entity to be 'customized' to the standard. That is just the nature of the beast.

I'm quite sure that if, for example, the certification trim/shoeing requirements were those of Natural Balance, the cries of outrage and anguish from those who do not adhere to NB principles, would be equally, if not, louder, and the clamor surrounding the trims would be deafening.

Rick

[calshoer]

Rick, this one is easy ;)

When I talked about natures design, I did make sure to say "if it was supposed to be there in the first place".

I think that explains it.
Toe flares, dishes, underun heels and the like are NOT part of natures design. IF the horse is runnng on the environment which they are evolved, those distortions don't happen . Horses running out free on hard ground, like where they evolved, simply do not dostort likethat .
Domestic or feral.
Bring in a ranch horse who has been out all winter barefoot in rocky hard prairie and you won't see those problems.

Those outside horses living in in sandy soil do have taller heels but the heels sink into the sandy soil, effectively making the *functional* hoof angles at the same as if the heels were worn short. And eventualy nature WILL break offf those taller heels when they get too long. She removes the unwanted parts. Crude but effective.


And IF the horse is living in an even MORE unnatural environment ( swampy east coast areas) they of course will certainly develop those distortions from lack of wear, But nature eventually finds a way to takes care if those too, by eventually crudely splitting or cracking off the excess ,(because it was not supposed to BE there in the first place. And if the foot had the self maintainance from hard ground it needed it wouldn't be. Sometimes nature removes the underrun heels by by abscessing . Abscesses very crudely but effectiely removes unwanted parts. Remember horses were NOT supposed to be trapped in swampy areas. They evolved on the Siberian Steppes( harsh prairie.) MAN moved them to the east coastof this continent . So the feet of those in living those areas MAN MADE .

The thing most important here is that those horses ALL HAVE A SOLE CALLOUS.
In fact the ones on soft swampy ground have a big excess one, probably to make up for the lack of bone column support from the flared wall and the soft ground .

AND they still have the correct breakover ,even with all that excess wall. This is due both from the toe being able to sink into the very soft ground (if the ground was not soft they would not have grown that long toe) and from a slight roll worn in the toe from the toe corners (the corners of the CALLOUS) forward .
AND they have effective sole and frog support becuse the long walls sink into the soft ground which created them. :D
See it still works, even in horses stuck in an unatural environment.
Patty

[Bill Adams]

You can always pull the shoes off after the test and apply plastic shoes on sideways if you want. In the last contest I spread the heels after I was done. You can roll the toe a bit then rasp afterwards too. I understood that we could discuss any problems with the examner beforehand and make any changes nessary. On the horse I did last month, I fit one foot full medially, because of a old coranary band injuray that deformed the hoof. That was a contest, but it was scored to certificatoin standards.
My $0.02,
Bill

[Jaye Perry]

Rick, this one is easy ;)

.
And IF the horse is living in an even MORE unnatural environment ( swampy east coast areas) they of course will certainly develop those distortions from lack of wear, But nature eventually finds a way to takes care if those too, by eventually crudely splitting or cracking off the excess ,(because it was not supposed to BE there in the first place. .
Patty


You now shoeing horses in an arid enviroment, say Colorado,. I shoe horses in an sub tropical enviroment, Georgia.
So, 15 or less inches of precip compared to 75 or more inches of precip on the average. There is no coparison, or once read quote, " apples to apples" or "apples to oranges".(USGS )

There were three types of prehistoric horses or single toed equss, the Stepps as you refer to, the wetlands horse(draft type) and a pony type in the upper baltic regions of europe.(Horses of the World '92)

Mammals at or above 2800' elevation will have a or will proliferate more capillary and areole if they live and train at or above these levels. This tells one why there is more vascular profusion in the secondary lamella in horses feet at the higher elevations.(Intermittent Hypoxic Training: Fact and Fancy. Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness. June 2002)

There are a lot more that we could parlay about, but I just don't have the time. So all the science one can come up with; there can be logical and linear explanations why the conclusions read the way they do. If one digs deep enough one can find answers of why things are the way they are..... .

To take a study(S) and make it analogous to a certain methodology(S) and blanket an industry with hyperboly is just not using all science, methodologies and experiences to help the horse.MHO.

BTW, here in the south, in the foothils of the applachians, you sole out of horse's foot you will be working at Home Depot in short order. Rocks and rain just don't go together. :cool:

[calshoer]

Jaye dont forget I shod horses in the SF Bay area for 14 years. I KNOW the feet are completely different, but the feet HERE are a lot more normal than those in Ca. BTW in Dr Bowkers studies funded by AQHA on navicular syndrome, the West Coast feet were consiantly the ones with the lowest quality of supportive digital cartilage. (no reason given, just interesting though)
And I have worked on feet all over the US, from the East coast, to Washington state(where you just wire brush the soles)

And NB IS based on a number of various studies, from all over the world. When you look at them all together the begin to create a much bigger picture that supports the needed changes in this industry standards and techniques to better the horse. I am sure NB is NOT going to be the only solution, but is sure the best that has come along so far in my book, And NB is NOT based on just one or few studies , nor is it based only on studies done by people affilited with NB. It is based on (and still evolving) from more and more research coming in from around the world.
Patty

PS Here is a picture of a typical SF Bay Area stable in winter, so I KNOW what wet is like. ;)