Welding With Oxy/Act Torch

[Jeff Crane]

I wonder how many of you use a torch to weld bar in shoes. Do you let it air cool before you do any more work on the shoe or do you quench it hot? If you quench it hot does it make the weld brittle causing it to break easier?

Thanks Jeff

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Jeff Crane in gray

I wonder how many of you use a torch to weld bar in shoes.

I used to carry an O/A rig on the truck because I found I O/A to be much more versatile than an electric welder. You can learn the fundamentals of gas welding and brazing in about 30 minutes, even if you've never picked up a torch. Aluminum might take another 15 minutes. :)

Do you let it air cool before you do any more work on the shoe or do you quench it hot?

I let Fe go to black, then quenched; I quenched Al immediately.

If you quench it hot does it make the weld brittle causing it to break easier?

I don't think you can change the molecular structure of A-36 by quenching at a black, but I don't know for sure. I'm a helluva long ways from being a code gas welder, but none of my bars ever broke and I went to water at a black on every one.

Hope this helps.

[Matt_McMicken]

Toms right, you quench mild steel with no problems. It doesnt contain enough carbon to harden. I carry torches in my righ drill tech, and sometimes welding in bars. You can use bailing wire for filler wire, or a metal clothes hanger works a little better. I normally have bailing wire on hand, so thats what I normally use. The torches are handy to have around. You can do a lot of different things with them.

[Jeff Crane]

Thanks alot guys. I was practicing welding some bars in today. I quenched one when it was still orange and it broke with one tap with a hammer. The next one I welded and quenched it when one side was hot but the other side had cooled some. The hot side broke and the other side did not. I think letting it cool some mabe the ticket. Am I right about that?


Jeff

[brian robertson]

excessive oxygen is more likely the cause of a brittle weld in mild steel. try using a reducing flame.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

brian robertson in gray

excessive oxygen is more likely the cause of a brittle weld in mild steel. try using a reducing flame.

Brian is right, it's called "oxygen embrittlement." (sp?). For more information on O/A flame characteristics, please see <http://www.stanford.edu/group/prl/documents/html/OAweld.htm>

Hope this helps.

[Jack Evers]

Another, possibility is not keeping both sides of the weld molten. I often see beginners sort of try to "glue" it together by melting the rod without melting the two pieces that are being joined. Both sides as well as the filler rod needs to be liquid. Step five under welding on Tom's link.

[Matt_McMicken]

For sure, you have to carry youre puddle. Get a liquid puddle in youre two base metals, then add filler. Carry youre puddle, adding filler as needed, across youre joint. A little practice and youll get the hang of it.

[Jeff Crane]

Thankyou everyone. I have had the torch for some time but never really used it much. The link posted said to use 10psi of oxygen for welding and 5psi of acetylene. I was useing 30psi oxy and 7psi acetylene. I was not getting both sides hot enough. I applies the filler at an orange heat and the metal was not liquid. I sure do appreciate the help.

Jeff

[Matt_McMicken]

I run 5 and 5. Equal amounts of oxy/ace. Adjust at the torch for desired heat.

[JimBondra]

Jeff,
A good weld is like good ***.
Both parties need to be slowly brought to the same heat at the same time.
Only then can a good union take place.
You bring the filler;)

[Matt_McMicken]

Jeff,
A good weld is like good ***.
Both parties need to be slowly brought to the same heat at the same time.
Only then can a good union take place.
You bring the filler;)


LMAO! Everybody knows welders have bigger rods, farriers make everything red hot, and cowboys stay in the saddle a little bit longer.

[Jeff Crane]

Y'all have taken this to a whole new level.

[Jeff Crane]

How long should it take to get a puddle going. It seems like it is taking forever to get the metal in a liquid form. I am also getting alot of soot in the end of the torch.

Jeff

[Horshure]

make sure there is some room for the filler. Bevel pieces to be welded or leave a smallish gap for a stronger weld. This will add depth to the weld.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Jeff Crane in gray

How long should it take to get a puddle going.

Depends on the thickness of the stock.

It seems like it is taking forever to get the metal in a liquid form.

Keep the flame neutral, increase the heat; if there's a difference in size, keep the torch moving to both sides of the pieces to be joined and spend more time heating the larger - It ain't going to stick unless both sides are molten when you apply the filler rod. :)

I am also getting alot of soot in the end of the torch.

Sounds like your mix is acetylene rich. Try setting your oxygen and acetylene at three volumes to one (3:1 = oxygen @ 15, acetylene @ 5).

Some torches (Henrob, Dillon, Cobra, etc.) work best at 1:1, but for general cutting/welding, most conventional torches (Victor, Purox, Oxweld, Smith, etc.,) work best somewhere around 3:1.

Hope this helps.

[Jack Evers]

The soot sounds like the flame is too carburizing. It shouldn't take more than 30 to fourty seconds to get a puddle started. See Tom's link again

http://www.stanford.edu/group/prl/documents/html/OAweld.htm

under "adjusting the flame".

[Jack Evers]

I was curious after my last post. I've never actually timed how long it took to get a puddle so I went to the shop and welded a couple old shoes together. I had my puddle in 24 seconds. Newer shoes, heavier metal might take a little longer.

Is the soot in the tip or on the tip? You'll always get soot on the tip from the straight Acetylene flame both on start up and shut down. Soot in the tip could come from too small of a flame, actually burning back inside the tip or getting your tip too close to the work because the flame is too small.

[Jeff Crane]

Soot was both in and around. I cleaned the tip and that took care of the problem. I have a set of baby torches, I don't know if that makes a difference. They are made by Uniweld

[Matt_McMicken]

what tip are you using? not to sound silly, but you know you use a different tip, or actually, torch head, when youe cutting than when youre welding. turn you ace up until the black smoke goes away, then turn youre oxy up until the two blue cones become one. that should get you close to where you wanta be to weld. and i set my regulators at 5 and 5 cfh.

[Jeff Crane]

After all the help I have recieved from everyone and the link Jack sent me I made another bar shoe today. I got the puddles going in about 20-30 seconds and then added my filler rod in there. Cooled it off when it was black. I could not break it. With some more practice to make it purdy I think I've got it. Thanks to everyone who helped me with this. I can weld with my arc welder just fine but I want to use O\A on my truck because of less sparks and splatter. Thanks again.

Jeff

[Mark_Gough]

Good topic and glad you started the thread Jeff. I've been considering using an oxy/ace setup myself and found the information here to be helpful.

As Tom S. has pointed out in the past, it strikes me as useful to have a means of welding that doesn't depend upon the client providing a 20 amp circuit for a wire feed rig.

Cheers,
Mark

[Jeff Crane]

OK guys here's a shoe I did today. This is the first one for a customer's horse. This horse is navicular.

[T. Wm. HALL]

Do any of you guys carry around a portable O/A torch set similar to what is featured in this following link?

http://www.weldfabulous.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/4543451/vpcsid/0/SFV/32435?gclid=CJuHv7iNzpcCFRykagodIC8pDA

I'm curious if the tanks are easily re-filled/replaced at the welding supply houses? How hot do they get and how thick of steel can they cut through?

Those who use a similar set-up, give me your opinions. They look pretty handy, for portable use, but I do a lot of work in my shop too and want to invest in large size tanks (stationary) as well.

Trev.

[Jeff Crane]

Do any of you guys carry around a portable O/A torch set similar to what is featured in this following link?

http://www.weldfabulous.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/4543451/vpcsid/0/SFV/32435?gclid=CJuHv7iNzpcCFRykagodIC8pDA

I'm curious if the tanks are easily re-filled/replaced at the welding supply houses? How hot do they get and how thick of steel can they cut through?

Those who use a similar set-up, give me your opinions. They look pretty handy, for portable use, but I do a lot of work in my shop too and want to invest in large size tanks (stationary) as well.

Trev.


That is what what ai have in my truck. Mine is not Victor but the same size. I take my tanks to National Welders Supply and exchange them. I took both tanks last week to exchange and it was $22.00. I don't have the cutting tip just the welding and brazing tip. Once I learned how to use them they are very versitle. Hope this answers your question.

Jeff

[brian robertson]

the question isn't how thick can it cut but for how long? the thickness of cut is determined by the torch head. I've used a slightly larger set in my rig for 36 yrs. works just fine.

[Gary_Miller]

You can do anything with that set up that you can do with a larger one. The only problem you will run into is you will run out of gas quicker, especally OX when cutting. Great for small jobs.

If you want one for the truck I would purchase a shop size torch kit. Then use the meduim size bottles. They will last alot longer and still not take up much room in the truck.

[T. Wm. HALL]

Thanks for the info guys! I will be looking into getting the smaller size as featured in my link for portable use.

I don't have any room in my truck for anything any larger than that.

Trevor

[Mark_Gough]

Thanks for the info guys! I will be looking into getting the smaller size as featured in my link for portable use.

I don't have any room in my truck for anything any larger than that.

Trevor

Trevor,

Just a sidenote on the Victor outfit you posted. I saw the same outfit at Tractor supply this week selling at $369. Looks like you found a much better price and it appears that they will pay for the shipping. Sweet deal!

Mark

[T. Wm. HALL]

Trevor,

Just a sidenote on the Victor outfit you posted. I saw the same outfit at Tractor supply this week selling at $369. Looks like you found a much better price and it appears that they will pay for the shipping. Sweet deal!

MarkMark,

Thanks for the info.

I have been seeing lately that with the purchases I have made (Christmas Gifts) online, is that I can order them and even after shipping is factored in, I am still paying less than what I can buy it here locally. I am located about 10 minutes from a Farrier Supply store which has the lowest prices I have ever found, (I bought my first tools there).....but lately their prices have been going up too.

I buy direct when I can and avoid the middle man. I am in the process of making an order for some assorted rivets. Setting snow pads, and the copper rivets that I use on my Blacksmith projects lately has my supply depleted. http://www.hansonrivet.com/

I will look locally to see if I can find that Oxy/Act package, but I will probably end up ordering online again. My Dad was a 'Pipeliner' while I was growing up, and I trust the 'Victor' brand....Lincoln Welders as well. I am still hoping for a Shop Size O/A set up soon! That will add some versatility to my shop projects. I'm sure in the future, I will look back and realize how I did without it....

Have a great weekend!

Trevor

[jseyffer]

NOTE!!!!

I have used a set like that off and on for years. You need to watch the acetylene tank. The little valve can vibrate and leak in a truck. Not a real danger, but you can get a nasty "empty tank" surprise. This is on the tank that takes the little (1/4" wrench). They can be exchanged almost anywhere.

[SlowShoe]

what size tip are you guys useing?

[cowboy_bc]

NOTE!!!!

I have used a set like that off and on for years. You need to watch the acetylene tank. The little valve can vibrate and leak in a truck. Not a real danger, but you can get a nasty "empty tank" surprise. This is on the tank that takes the little (1/4" wrench). They can be exchanged almost anywhere.


Hi all,

But not near the surprise you'll get if you lay the tank on it's side and try to light the torch!

Kevin

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

cowboy_bc in gray

But not near the surprise you'll get if you lay the tank on it's side and try to light the torch!

What he said! If you ever crack the gas valve on an O/A torch and see a liquid at the tip, turn the valve off, make damn sure the acetylene tank is upright, and don't try to light it again for an hour or so, lest you make an ash of yourself. :)

[Extra credit: What is the liquid and why is it there?]

[HoustonFarrier]

[Extra credit: What is the liquid and why is it there?]

Liquid Acetone ?????

Steve

[cowboy_bc]

cowboy_bc in gray

But not near the surprise you'll get if you lay the tank on it's side and try to light the torch!

What he said! If you ever crack the gas valve on an O/A torch and see a liquid at the tip, turn the valve off, make damn sure the acetylene tank is upright, and don't try to light it again for an hour or so, lest you make an ash of yourself. :)

[Extra credit: What is the liquid and why is it there?]

Hi all,

Acetylene is a product of a chemical reaction between water and calcium carbide (the old miners light) Cylinders contain a solvent (acetone) that can absorb many times it's own volume of acetylene under pressure. Acetylene has the lowest temperature of welding gases and should not be used above 15 psi the reason for the solvent, which leads me to wonder why more folks don't use propane with the proper reg - bottle adapters and tips instead?

Kevin

[T. Wm. HALL]

[Extra credit: What is the liquid and why is it there?]

My answer is that the Acetylene is no longer in a gas state, (not regulated properly) it is now liquefied and much, much more potent. Just as Propane is liquid but expands 270:1 to a gas form.

Long story short, if you light the liquid Acetylene, which has similar properties as propane, it will create a fairly thorough remodel to your shop or truck and ruin a few of your days as well.

Am I close??

Trevor

[Jack Evers]

why more folks don't use propane with the proper reg - bottle adapters and tips instead?

Kevin

My understanding is that oxy- propane is fine for cutting and perhaps heating and bending (blacksmith work on large pieces), but not good for welding. The local salvage yard uses it for cutting s**** up into useable sizes, but still keeps O/A for any welding. Since we would mostly use it for welding ........

[Phil Armitage]

cowboy_bc in gray

But not near the surprise you'll get if you lay the tank on it's side and try to light the torch!

What he said! If you ever crack the gas valve on an O/A torch and see a liquid at the tip, turn the valve off, make damn sure the acetylene tank is upright, and don't try to light it again for an hour or so, lest you make an ash of yourself. :)

[Extra credit: What is the liquid and why is it there?]

Liquid spurted out the tip of my torch last week. First time in 10 years this has happened (get your minds out of the gutter) and I use Oxy/Ace a lot. This was a new tank, the shop was very cold. So I wondered if maybe the temp had something to do with it, but I have used Oxy/Ace in cold temps before. Exchanged the tank for a new one and the sales clerk said it is rare but sometimes they get over filled. When it happened I shut it off and tried it again the next day and still had a problem. Luckily I did not make an ash of myself. Wouldn't the arrestors prevent a flashback even if it were liquid?

[Jack Evers]

I noticed Jeff on here. A good exercise in puddle control, Jeff, is to lay two pieces of bar stack side by side with a small gap and weld them without filler rod. Just puddle the two together.

[Phil Armitage]

Jack, thanks for the tip you gave last winter on using a carborised flame to weld borium. It works great and I also find the borium holds up better after 6 weeks. Prior to that I was using a neutral flame to weld it on.

Jeff, I heat the area I am welding for a few seconds with the flame of the torch then get closer with your welding flame (blue flame should be about 1/2") and get the puddle going. Heat is your friend, however it can get too hot, control the amount of heat by backing off as you go and place the filler rod into the puddle slightly past the flame, then move forward or back to keep you puddle going and dipping your filler rod. One way to think of it is overlapping coins. This is how professional welders get that overlapped look to the weld and good penetration. Jacks exercise using two pieces side by side and welding them together with the puddle and no filler rod is a good one to get use to melting both materials.

For welding you want a neutral flame this flame is when you adjust your Ace/Oxy to where the carborised flame is just off.

A carborised flame is where you can see the second cone, more Ace. This is good for welding borium on and is a cooler flame. I start my puddle with the welding flame then add the borium with the carborised flame.

Hope this helps.

[Jack Evers]

You're quite welcome Phil. Merry Christmas.

[Jeff Crane]

Thanks guys for all the help. Merry Christmas

Jeff