Dave Whitaker
05-22-2005, 12:10 PM
I thought this question might be better in this forum. Dave
Jason Maki
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ashtabula,Oh
Posts: 251
Re: Most popular discussions
Here's a huge can of worms Phil. I've avoided posting it because of preciseley the stink it will cause.Ask and thou shalt receive!
A reiner trainer had me come out for an "interveiw"(looking for a new farrier, his has moved... I was to expensive though. I am pretty sure my student is going to get the account, he called me yesterday to get the skinny. I did two on Wednesday and he did two on Friday. I guess the trainer did not realize we had connections and communicated! My buddy and I decided i would decline if it was offered to me and tell the guy to call him) Any way all four horses were sheared on the medial heel of the left side from right handed trimming. All had atleast an inch of retained sole, heels pulled forward an inch, the run forward skinny frog, toes rocked off and NB steel fronts.
When I popped the retained sole out, all four front feet had a PIII shaped bruise under the callous. I diagonaled (as did my buddy) the shears and they disappeared. The feet were atleast an inch long. The frog shed back to healthy. I just fit a pair of shoes on one, though the bigger guy did require a wedge to restore axis on his left front. I fit a rocker toe on him. Both horses were off, slapping the ground and heavy up front, a big problem for a reiner.
I must say, these feet were not dumped, as most of the NB shoes i pull off are, but they were not healthy either. They had sole bruising from sole pressure(caused by the shoe and the massive amount of sole left under PIII) The heels were WAy forward, as was the setback (or forward from the distorted frog, callous combo) toe of the shoe. My perimeter fit w/rocker toe shoe had "breakover" and inch farther back than the NB shoe. Both horses came up off and walked off not slapping the ground and were able to work.
The person who shod them was afraid to remove any sole had created an environment that kept moving the reference points.he feet looked very similar to the pictures of the prepped foot on the NB site... a big sole ridge, rocked off toe, fit very full. Everytime I have pulled these shoes off I find the PIII bruise under the sole lump, the frog is about ready to shed and the heels are forward, with major flaring in the toe "quarters". These feet, however had not been dumped from the topside, but rockered from the bottom, so they were not totally collapsed in the toe and quarters.
I think the unloading of the wall and loading of the sole impinges the cir***flex artery and creates the bruise under the sole ridge. The inability or unwillingness to use a knife and remove dead sole allows the foot to creap forward. The overbroadness of the preset toe encourages the flaring in the toe quarters or corners. Evertime I remove a pair of these shoes this is what I find. Why?
Jason Maki CJF
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#3
05-21-2005, 02:11 PM
Phil Armitage
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 577
Re: Most popular discussions
Obviously whoever was doing these horses were not trimming them properly. He probably felt the only way he could achieve proper breakover was to use Natural Balance shoe. I have seen this with Natural Balance shoes and regular shoes, parimeter fit and set back. The key is what you did give them a proper trim. If you attend a Natural Balance Clinic, you will see they do not leave excess sole. The callouse is not excess sole. Some people are not there yet and tend to leave too much sole and this is what happens when they do. Great post and this is the kind of discussions I enjoy and information we should be shareing more of. I would call the guy and see if he is willing to hear what you found. This would make him a better farrier. Good post.
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#4
05-21-2005, 03:13 PM
Phil Armitage
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 577
Re: Most popular discussions
Couple of years ago I took on a new client that had moved to Maine from Georgia. All three horses had similar problems as you described. Parimeter fit shoes and one of them spooned heels to prevent shoe pulling. I trimmed them up and got rid of the deformaty and stress rings. There all doing well, in plain shoes, no more distortion, not pulling shoes. Never said anything to the owner, I do not even think they know the difference. They loved there old Farrier in Georgia and say nothing but kind things about him. It happens, sometimes I think Farriers get into a comfort zone and do not realise if there doing a good job trimming or not. Continueing improvement and getting others to evaluate your work is a personal choice, some of us are open to constructive cristisim and some of us are not, certified or not. You are obviously an open and honest individual or you would not be here shareing information and asking questions. It takes a big person to open themselfes up and admit that they do not know everythng. I spent many years in the military dealing with different people some were out going and welcomed feedback others thought they knew it all and eveyone else was ******. It is good to be confident, but you have to be carefull and not let your confidence get in the way of learning more.
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#5
05-22-2005, 12:06 PM
hoofmender
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: maine
Posts: 38
Re: Most popular discussions-its not a NB problem
Boy, Jason, reading between the lines, you would really like to blame the NB shoes for the obviously bad foot issues you found. That's unfortunate, but don't blame the lumber because your inept carpenter made the house fall down. I, too, attended my first Natural Balance clinic with great skepticism, but, listening with an open mind, I was surprised that most of the "principles" that Gene Ovnicek was proposing, presenting, or "just something for you to consider" as Gene is likely to say, where the very things that I had "migrated" towards on my own because I found my horses going better yet I didn't quite know why. Yet.
There is definately something to the simple procedure of balancing the foot using the actual level of the LIVE sole as your guide. Now, identifying exactly where that live sole begins takes a skilled farrier and a little practice. Missing your mark consistantly either above or below it will lead you straight to the problems that you discovered. If those very same feet had been shod with a more traditional shoe, you would have found the exact same pathology. The NB shoes do allow you to set the breakover in a more correct position in relation to the coffin joint, BUT, if ALL the rest of the puzzle is ignored, you can cause more harm than good. The most positive results are consistantly achieved when you pay attention to every little piece of the puzzle....... the parts make the whole. The scientific research is out there.... more coming everyday.....what we are able to learn about how the Equine foot works is growing exponentially. Bowker, Page, Hood, O'Grady, Gene and scores of others are making it their life's passion. Are we to accept every little spoon fed piece? Certainly not... that would be foolish..... just as foolish as ignoring the new ideas that you can make work for you to help the horses in your care become more comfortable. What I have recently learned allows me to do just that and repeat it horse after horse, day after day.
You didn't set the breakover back an inch further than the NB shoe, you set it back further because you trimmed the foot more correctly. The NB shoe didn't flare the toe quarters, an incorrectly placed shoe flared the toe quarters. The sole bruising was caused by sole pressure, again incorrect trimming and shoe application, not the NB shoe. These shoes have tremendous sole relief when set properly on a correctly prepared foot.
So, Jason, to your question, "Every time I remove a pair of these shoes this is what I find. Why?", I would propose that you are not removing "evil" Natural Balance shoes, but uncovering very poor farriery. Thank God for those horses that you are able to recognize these deformities. This is a case where you "shouldn't shoot the message, but instead indeed shoot the messenger"! Dave
Jason Maki
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ashtabula,Oh
Posts: 251
Re: Most popular discussions
Here's a huge can of worms Phil. I've avoided posting it because of preciseley the stink it will cause.Ask and thou shalt receive!
A reiner trainer had me come out for an "interveiw"(looking for a new farrier, his has moved... I was to expensive though. I am pretty sure my student is going to get the account, he called me yesterday to get the skinny. I did two on Wednesday and he did two on Friday. I guess the trainer did not realize we had connections and communicated! My buddy and I decided i would decline if it was offered to me and tell the guy to call him) Any way all four horses were sheared on the medial heel of the left side from right handed trimming. All had atleast an inch of retained sole, heels pulled forward an inch, the run forward skinny frog, toes rocked off and NB steel fronts.
When I popped the retained sole out, all four front feet had a PIII shaped bruise under the callous. I diagonaled (as did my buddy) the shears and they disappeared. The feet were atleast an inch long. The frog shed back to healthy. I just fit a pair of shoes on one, though the bigger guy did require a wedge to restore axis on his left front. I fit a rocker toe on him. Both horses were off, slapping the ground and heavy up front, a big problem for a reiner.
I must say, these feet were not dumped, as most of the NB shoes i pull off are, but they were not healthy either. They had sole bruising from sole pressure(caused by the shoe and the massive amount of sole left under PIII) The heels were WAy forward, as was the setback (or forward from the distorted frog, callous combo) toe of the shoe. My perimeter fit w/rocker toe shoe had "breakover" and inch farther back than the NB shoe. Both horses came up off and walked off not slapping the ground and were able to work.
The person who shod them was afraid to remove any sole had created an environment that kept moving the reference points.he feet looked very similar to the pictures of the prepped foot on the NB site... a big sole ridge, rocked off toe, fit very full. Everytime I have pulled these shoes off I find the PIII bruise under the sole lump, the frog is about ready to shed and the heels are forward, with major flaring in the toe "quarters". These feet, however had not been dumped from the topside, but rockered from the bottom, so they were not totally collapsed in the toe and quarters.
I think the unloading of the wall and loading of the sole impinges the cir***flex artery and creates the bruise under the sole ridge. The inability or unwillingness to use a knife and remove dead sole allows the foot to creap forward. The overbroadness of the preset toe encourages the flaring in the toe quarters or corners. Evertime I remove a pair of these shoes this is what I find. Why?
Jason Maki CJF
__________________
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#3
05-21-2005, 02:11 PM
Phil Armitage
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 577
Re: Most popular discussions
Obviously whoever was doing these horses were not trimming them properly. He probably felt the only way he could achieve proper breakover was to use Natural Balance shoe. I have seen this with Natural Balance shoes and regular shoes, parimeter fit and set back. The key is what you did give them a proper trim. If you attend a Natural Balance Clinic, you will see they do not leave excess sole. The callouse is not excess sole. Some people are not there yet and tend to leave too much sole and this is what happens when they do. Great post and this is the kind of discussions I enjoy and information we should be shareing more of. I would call the guy and see if he is willing to hear what you found. This would make him a better farrier. Good post.
__________________
Phil Armitage
Farrier
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#4
05-21-2005, 03:13 PM
Phil Armitage
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 577
Re: Most popular discussions
Couple of years ago I took on a new client that had moved to Maine from Georgia. All three horses had similar problems as you described. Parimeter fit shoes and one of them spooned heels to prevent shoe pulling. I trimmed them up and got rid of the deformaty and stress rings. There all doing well, in plain shoes, no more distortion, not pulling shoes. Never said anything to the owner, I do not even think they know the difference. They loved there old Farrier in Georgia and say nothing but kind things about him. It happens, sometimes I think Farriers get into a comfort zone and do not realise if there doing a good job trimming or not. Continueing improvement and getting others to evaluate your work is a personal choice, some of us are open to constructive cristisim and some of us are not, certified or not. You are obviously an open and honest individual or you would not be here shareing information and asking questions. It takes a big person to open themselfes up and admit that they do not know everythng. I spent many years in the military dealing with different people some were out going and welcomed feedback others thought they knew it all and eveyone else was ******. It is good to be confident, but you have to be carefull and not let your confidence get in the way of learning more.
__________________
Phil Armitage
Farrier
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#5
05-22-2005, 12:06 PM
hoofmender
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: maine
Posts: 38
Re: Most popular discussions-its not a NB problem
Boy, Jason, reading between the lines, you would really like to blame the NB shoes for the obviously bad foot issues you found. That's unfortunate, but don't blame the lumber because your inept carpenter made the house fall down. I, too, attended my first Natural Balance clinic with great skepticism, but, listening with an open mind, I was surprised that most of the "principles" that Gene Ovnicek was proposing, presenting, or "just something for you to consider" as Gene is likely to say, where the very things that I had "migrated" towards on my own because I found my horses going better yet I didn't quite know why. Yet.
There is definately something to the simple procedure of balancing the foot using the actual level of the LIVE sole as your guide. Now, identifying exactly where that live sole begins takes a skilled farrier and a little practice. Missing your mark consistantly either above or below it will lead you straight to the problems that you discovered. If those very same feet had been shod with a more traditional shoe, you would have found the exact same pathology. The NB shoes do allow you to set the breakover in a more correct position in relation to the coffin joint, BUT, if ALL the rest of the puzzle is ignored, you can cause more harm than good. The most positive results are consistantly achieved when you pay attention to every little piece of the puzzle....... the parts make the whole. The scientific research is out there.... more coming everyday.....what we are able to learn about how the Equine foot works is growing exponentially. Bowker, Page, Hood, O'Grady, Gene and scores of others are making it their life's passion. Are we to accept every little spoon fed piece? Certainly not... that would be foolish..... just as foolish as ignoring the new ideas that you can make work for you to help the horses in your care become more comfortable. What I have recently learned allows me to do just that and repeat it horse after horse, day after day.
You didn't set the breakover back an inch further than the NB shoe, you set it back further because you trimmed the foot more correctly. The NB shoe didn't flare the toe quarters, an incorrectly placed shoe flared the toe quarters. The sole bruising was caused by sole pressure, again incorrect trimming and shoe application, not the NB shoe. These shoes have tremendous sole relief when set properly on a correctly prepared foot.
So, Jason, to your question, "Every time I remove a pair of these shoes this is what I find. Why?", I would propose that you are not removing "evil" Natural Balance shoes, but uncovering very poor farriery. Thank God for those horses that you are able to recognize these deformities. This is a case where you "shouldn't shoot the message, but instead indeed shoot the messenger"! Dave