Correct or Corrective Trimming/Shoeing? Vet/Farrier Communication problems

[RiderInBlack]

Yes, I know I had put this in another thread (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=194&postcount=6), but this is an on going problem for me so here's refresher on what has happened.
Went to see the Vet in concern of the TB Mare with the abcuss. I ask him for an explaination for the way he had "trimed" the hoof (the "roller coaster"). I asked him what was his diagnosis for this horse. He replied that he would explain it when the horse, myself and the owner brought the horse to him for shoeing. I asked him why could he not expain it to me now, as I felt that knowing before hand would more professional as it would allow me time to research the problem, therefore allowing me to be better prepare to shoe the horse to his requirements. He told me he'd let me know his diagnosis prior to the shoing, only if I paid him $100 (and spared him 2 hours) to run me through the farrier seminor that he had done (stating that I had not gone to it). He also stated that he was the Farrier Liaision For The New Zealand Veterinary Association.

I've have contacted the NZ Farriers *** regarding this, and they are being very supportive of me in regards to this considering that I am not a present member. I stopped being a member in 1999 when I went nursing and have not rejoined as yet (have only been back shoeing since last September).

So this could get quite interesting! Not what I need right now but, as I'm helping the farmer next-door with calving and twice a day milking as well as shoeing horses at the moment (ie: 5am mornings, shoeing midday, finishing 6pm, 7 days a week for 2 months)!

[RiderInBlack]

Here is some pic's of said horse's Off-Fore. You can clearly see the "roller-coaster" trim that was done at the vet's clinic even though it is around 2 weeks since this horse saw the vet for the abcuss in the medial heel of this hoof (you can just see the abcuss hole in http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32&stc=1 ). Vet had mentioned that he wanted to show me how to "correct shoe" this horse! I have still not got an answer as to wether he trimed this hoof this way to "correct" a problem for this horse.


The photographs I have taken also showed that this horse appears to have a base wide conformation complicated by the toes being turned out (or splayed-footed) (as seen in http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28&stc=1), which would lead to the medial heels of both fore hooves bearing more weight than the lateral heels.




One Question that is bugging me, has this trim been done as a "corrective" measure (it sure does not look "correct" to me) or is this just a trimming *****-up?







The NZ Farriers *** has ask me to e-mail this vet and send them the reply.
More fun to be had yet :-(

[shoesofiron]

That's messed up.
The bottom picture of the solar view shows way more foot on the lateral side than medial.
I dunno what he's thinking trimming a horse like that... but I'm sure the word "natural" appears in their somewhere...

[calshoer]

Geesh Scott, I don't know of ANY trim method that is based on a natural foot that would be anywhere like that mess......even the "way out there" ones don't leave heels different lengths. If you know of one that DOES promote completely different heel lengths on the same foot let me know who's it is.
Patty

[RiderInBlack]

(Real Name Removed)
CFP, BHSc Nursing

(home address and e-mail removed)







30 August, 2004

Dr (Vet's Name Removed) B.V.Sc.,

(Address and e-mail Removed)



Dear (Vet's Name Removed) B.V.Sc.:

Re: the discussion had between yourself and I on Thursday the 26th of August 2004, concerning (the horse owner name removed)’s Horse Tui. I am still disappointed that you were unwilling to discuss Tui’s diagnosis prior to having the horse shod in you presence and under your instruction, unless I was will to pay you $100NZ to sit through a two hour presentation (when I had time).

As I had stated at the time, I felt that to be properly prepared to do this shoeing, with the aim to promoting long term soundness for the horse, Tui, I would require you veterinary assessment for this horse prior to the day of this shoeing.

I also stated that I needed this information to understand the rational for the way the horse’s (Tui) off-fore hoof was trimmed upon returning from your clinic. I had noticed the ground surface the hoof wall was very uneven on this hoof, and needed to know if this trim was uneven for a purpose (as you can see Tui’s Off-Fore Hoof pictures attach to the end of this letter) as we need to be trying to achieve the same thing in regards to the management of this horse’s (Tui) hooves, and not undoing each other’s work.

I got the impression that you felt that I would not be able to understand what you are trying to achieve with this horse’s hoof due to not being able to attend your seminar for the Farriers. I assure you that I could understand your diagnosis of the horse’s (Tui) hoof as I have not only completed my formal training as a Farrier with The New Zealand Farriers Association, I have also have a Degree in Heath Science (Nursing). I have also discussed the issues surrounding the discussion had between yourself and I on Thursday the 26th of August 2004, concerning (the horse owner name removed)’s Horse Tui, with The (postition removed) of The New Zealand Farriers Association, (name removed). He has generously offered to look at the horse (Tui) with me, and to act as translator or support should that still be required concerning your diagnosis.

Please reply to this letter ASAP via e-mail to the following e-mail address: (My E-mail address removed) detailing why you do refused to give me to details of (the horse owner name removed)’s Horse Tui, prior to it’s shoeing when requested by myself on Thursday the 26th of August 2004.

Sincerely,

(Real Name Removed)

CFP, BHSc (Nursing)

[RiderInBlack]

(My Real Name Removed) CHP BHSc Nursing
Dear (Real Name Removed)
RE Tui
Tui was presented at the clinic for persistent abscessing of the heel.
In the course of examining the animal I suggested to the owner that I would discuss with you re shoeing the horse when the tme was appropriate to reapply a shoe. (Horse owner's Name Removed) suggested that she would bring the horse to the clinic at a time convenient to yourself to shoe the horse. I fully concurred with this suggestion as I encourage farriers to use the facility at Animal Health Centre for this. It is far simpler to discuss things with the horse in front of both in a clean dry environment with a forge, anvil and radiographic facilities to hand.
For this reason and not anticipating any lack of co-operation from yourself I did not take any notes nor photos nor draw any prescription. This I thought would be the "gold standard" of co-operation. Without case notes, and your drawing of the hoof did not help me understand where you were coming from, I did not see any point in getting bogged down in theoretical discussions.

Still anticipating the return of the horse I feel this is still the best course of action - ie to review the horse in collaberation at the clinic. We have a willing owner, a willing vet, and hopefully yorself. I always prefer to work with the owners farrier whenever possible.
I would not use your description of "supervison" for shoeing at the clinic, I would prefer the term "collaberation".

Our conversation at that point turned to 'Jamie - The Naked Hoof' and other theories. At this point I offerred to spend some time with you on the subject of hoof balance in general. This was not intended as a prerequisite to Tui's case. Rather it will be of help to you in your work as a farrier. I have noticed some of your horses off level to the point of sheared heels. If you are going to call yourself a "Master Farrier" you need to address this. The time required is not meant to be a reflection on your ability to understand but rather my ability to explain. It takes time. I have some material (which was not in the clinic at the time of your visit) which facilitates the explanations.

The invitation is still open. I would love you to call in at a mutually convenient time to go over this.

I am pleased you have joined the Farriers Association. It would be great if all shoers were members.

I can be contacted by phone at home (Ph No. Removed) the clinic (Ph No. Removed) mobile (Ph No. Removed)

Regards,

(Vet's Name Removed).

[Equine Podiatry]

Hmmmm... I can't really see any dramatic roller coaster trim in this particular hoof (the bulbs and heels are contracted, the walls are very thin, there is an old abscess cavity etc - and some foil (?) is covering up what would really be the correct view of the situation).
What I can see in the body pic. is not a conformational problem at all - it is an imbalance in the front hooves that causes a lot of trouble:
Starting from the ground up, you can see the osf hoof is steeper and more narrow (most likely more contracted and higher in the heel than nsf - and I am guessing here, as I can't see a lot of the foot on the cloths ), this causes offset pastern/knees and a very steep and spasmed right shoulder.
The horse has been compensating, taking the weight onto its nsf, hence the enormous muscle development further up.
nsf and osh have been working overtime to compensate for a contracted, painful osf hoof. The "splayed" footedness will improve when this horse is balanced and when it is no longer uncomfortable in the heels. At the moment it is in an "emergency position",not equally weightening both fronts nor the heels. This is a problem that existed for a while.
To achieve results, some physio is needed in addition to hoofcare....and not only once (to soften those shoulder muscles and stretching other soft tissue in the osf), there will be a lot of walking and moving on level ground so the limbs learn to move straight again....

[calshoer]

I disagree with the body imbalance at least in this picture. The reason is that hat the horse may well be leaning toward his left side at the moment the pic was taken. (see the RH hoof leaving the ground, he might have just wanted to begin to move as they snapped the pic )
If he was indeed leaning or even just had his head turned that way,the left fetlock would certainly drop as it bore more weight , causing all the "imbalance" you are pointing out in the knees etc. . Evaluation of a horses upper body balance and symmetry MUST be done with the horse standing absolutely square on all 4 feet on a level surface. . He certainly isn't in this picture.
Patty

[Bill Adams]

Dear EP,
Welcome aboard!
I must say I have never seen such absolute certainty, confident diognosis, and narrow prescription, done so fast with so little information.
I think we would all agree that the whole horse needs to be looked at, but so far we don't even know what coulor it's nose is, not to mention how it (we don't know if it's a he or a she) moves at the walk, trot, or run.
I get the idea that you are from the barefoot crowd that I've noticed can be very narrow in it's ideas.
I'm not trying to be offencive, just a little tired of narrowly read, under worked, instant fix types. If you're not in this catagory, step up to the plate and swing away.
Are you a Farrier? What's your experance? What's your name?
I am. Twelve years, passed my AFA CF practical, still have shoe board and written to go, and my name is Bill Adams. I also make more money triming than shoeing.

My $0.02,
Bill
P.S. Hi Phil,
Did you catch the baseball lingo above there? Those Sox came back strong, they'll get 'em yet.

[Equine Podiatry]

Thank you for the welcome, Bill. I am quite scared here, actually (especially Patty frightens me ;) ) but I would like to mingle a little if I may.
I hope to find ideas and thoughts that my school hasn't provided me with, but would like to share my thoughts as well, if you let me.
I am surprised that my above post appeared confident, even though I stated that "I was guessing". - after all they are just photographs - and not very good ones.
I am pretty sure that the horse is habitually loading the nsf though. Have a look at the overdeveloped triceps, typical sign of a compensatory problem. I am also pretty sure that the horse it is not about to move off as the osh is in resting position. Besides some definite body clues, the width of the coronets in the fronts give me the hint which hoof is higher and more contracted...causing the imbalance in the body. Level ground would be nice, but I can see some difference even like it is now. Would be nice if someone could check if I am right or wrong. Would like to know myself.
One thing is for sure though: If I could see more of the horse, I could tell you much more - but this is all I can see so far. If I could see the horse (whichever gender it is) move - and it's nose...., I would probably bore you to death......so I might leave it with that.... :)

[Bill Adams]

Dear Eee Pee,
If the horse is standing on a tuff of grass that's larger than other tufts, a tricep will look overdeveloped. A horses back line and hips look different when they ****. You can't tell from a few photos.
As to Patty frightening you, well I've met Patty. Be afraid, be very afraid (big grin here).
Still don't know much about you, what school you went at?
Gotta go,
Bill

[Equine Podiatry]

Bill :D - just kidding re Patty. She (I hope she is a she) seems very knowledgeable - but just like mine, her thoughts seem a little too linear (but that's why I am here: To find common ground and to understand more what and why you do things differently!)
Re the muscles- I still don't agree. One of the many hats I am wearing is my massage therapist-hat. That muscle is a whopper either way.

Otherwise.....nice of you to ask me about ID etc. - If I'd tell, you guys will probably stone me - and I bruise easily. May be later. Would like to be "friends" first and feel that you will discuss things with me, not haunt me.
People can be so bias......(that is an assumption based on experience).

[John Barney]

Good on ya Bill !! EP if you read the rules of these boards it says for farriers helping farriers. If you are one great, let us know where you're coming from. When I started getting involved here a couple years ago I made sure people knew when and where I went to school. I have recieved invaluable knowledge and some very quick responses to situations I have had. Not to say there hasn't been diagreements, but that to has helped in the learning. There is nothing wrong with saying who you are and what your credintials are. As for the horse in the pictures, I would say it is on an incline, slightly knockneed, and toed out. It appears whoever trimmed it tried to leave it high on the lateral side to force the toes in. Don't know the age, but that much of a imbalance is too much for a 3 month old to try to correct a toe out stance.

JB

PS I don't use a screen name
John Barney
JB Horseshoeing
Leeton MO

[RiderInBlack]

OK, so here's some more details. The TB Mare was still lame from the deep abcuss on the off fore (OF) medial heel at the time time of the pic, so it is no surpise that she is not standing true or wanting to weight bear evenly. The gound was very soft as it was our winter (we get a lot of rain but no snow in this part of New Zealand), so the horse would not heave beenj effected by standing on uneven ground. The "trim" done to the OF by the vet had left these measurements:
Distance from Medial Bulb Hairline to Ground Surface of the Medial Heel - 2 1/4"
Distance from Lateral Bulb Hairline to Ground Surface of the Lateral Heel - 1 3/8"
A 1/4" dip on the Medial Quarter of the Hoof Ground Surface
A 1/8" dip in the Lateral Heel area of the Hoof Ground Surface

I measure around the cir***ference of the Hoof Ground Surface for my shoe making. This hoof measured 14" around the Hoof Ground Surface from Heel to Heel, and 3 1/8" between the Heels accross the Frog. The Abcuss hole in the Medial heel was greater than 7/8" deep.

By the way this horse is doing well now. After the President and the Assesser for the NZ Farriers *** came out to look at the horse, it was found that there was old deep stone bruising in the Near Fore as well as the damage in the Off Fore. They advised me there was no major problems with this horse appart from the deep seated bruising and the abcuss. The Assesser noted the same uneveness with the trim done on the OF , and advised to just make it even. He also pointed out that the horn tubules on the medial side of the OF had some buckeling. Quarter clip shoes and Pads with "Sole Pack" were used on both Fores. Heels were keeped low and even. No big problem. No vet needed.