Info on bad horses

[oatey_hocking]

Insurance being a farrier?

Insurance being a trainer?

How to mix both jobs and keep your butt covered.

Mark G this ones for you sorta?


Thanks,
Jarred

[vthorseshoe]

Jarred, The best insurance in my book for either profession is called horsemanship skills.
Anyone can learn to nail on a shoe and many horseowners call themselves trainers after taking a parelli/anderson/reis/etc... course

The one thing most lack is the ability to read a horse or fully understand what/why/when/ and where they are doing what they are attempting.

The folks who get hurt and or quit are the ones who lack the ability to read and understand a horse by knowing the why's and what fore's of the animals actions.
Then knowing how to react/respond/ and work with the animal beyond the games they learned to play while under the tutalage of the above skilled people trainers.

I admire their abilities as horseman (parelli/anderson/reis etc...) in their own right.
I just think when it comes to training people they have become very good at teaching the chicken to ring the bell for some feed.
Promotion has taken over and the chicken comes away with a lot of feed but hasn't a real clue how it got the feed when push comes to shove and they are turned loose on their own.

my 2 cents worth ;)

[T. Wm. HALL]

Howdy,

It's ironic that you bring this topic up, I had a horse blow up today and knock me down, then come down on top of me. My first thought was, "I hope I come out of this one unscathed". I'm sore tonight, but I am alive and well!

As I was just picking up the RH (last foot) on a neighbors horse to trim, one of the outdoor stall doors blew open and startled her. She jumped into me, got her feet tangled up, I got my feet tangled up, and she came down on top of me. I would have been able to get out of the way in time, I could feel everything that was going on. I just went to step up to her shoulder and couldn't because the horse's owner had just placed herself right in the way. :rolleyes:

The horse went down, I went down with her, mostly under her flank. As she is scrambling to her feet, I actually went under her belly and came out on the left side of her, as she is still moving to her right. What kept her from coming completely on top of me was her him coming down and landing on my trim box which gave me about a 10" buffer area.

All the while I am thinking of the Aflac Duck and Yogi Berra commercial telling me if I get hurt, it won't hurt to miss work....knowing that if I got hurt, I'd be the new guy in that Barbershop playing checkers with the old timers.

All this happened within 1/4 mile of my front door (Neighbor's Horses) and when I walked back into the house all disheveled, my wife was amazed that I could raise such a commotion that close to home.

Be aware of your surroundings. Had I had known the gal was going to be standing next to the horse, and on the same side as me, I would have adapted. I didn't have my hearing aids in and couldn't hear her come up behind me.

Trevor

Jarred,
I took that Foot stand to the Mail Depot today, the cheapest freight to you is $89 for that darn thing. Message me and we will discuss other options.

[Mark_Gough]

Insurance being a farrier?

Insurance being a trainer?

How to mix both jobs and keep your butt covered.

Mark G this ones for you sorta?


Thanks,
Jarred

Hello Jarred,

I carry insurance to cover my own health/disability/death needs. I do not insure the horses I either farriery or train.

Training customers are asked to sign a release of responsibility waiver.

State law in Ohio also protects me from anyone who should be injured at my facility. In short, the law indicates that you work around horses at your own risk.

As for keeping your 'butt covered", I recommend a limited liability corporation for your business. This separates your attachable business assets from your personal assets (home, car, etc).

Those liability insurance companies that will insure against injury to anothers horse are far and few between and the coverage is not particularly impressive.

As others have already said, your best "insurance" is knowledge and experience.

The coursework that Bruce described is more than helpful (Anderson, Reis, etc), but if you can't 'read' a horse, all the coursework in the world won't be much help to you. Clinicians can be really helpful in sharing training techniques that they have mastered.

Learning to read a horse is something that only a horse can teach you.

Personally, I recommend the simple approach.

Watch horses interact with each other. I don't mean to watch them for a few minutes. Do it for hours. Lots of hours!

Pay close attention to the subtle 'body language' they use to constantly test and sort the pecking order within the herd. Study how they "warn" before they "act" and mentally notice how fast their reaction times are. As big as these creatures are, they can move lightening fast as compared to us. If you're thinking it's time to get out of ones way, it's probably already too late!

Do TONS of close up ground work on a 12-14' lead line. Not so much to train the horse, but to train YOU. Pick up their feet and feel the muscle tension in their legs, shoulders and hips. Learn to read their ears, the tail, the sound of their breathing. Learn to feel how they shift their weight as they prepare to move in any direction. Learn to tell the difference between submissive, passive and agressive behavior.

Spend a lot of time in the saddle. You'll get a feel for how they move and balance under you; where their feet are; how they react to your touch (reins, legs, seat, feet) and how they react to external stimuli in the environment around them. Watch their ear position relative to their apparent 'mood' and motion at different gaits. Listen for tail swishing. Learn to tell the difference between direct and indirect pressure and how the horse reacts to each.

Watch your surroundings! As Trevor so succinctly demonstrated, the greatest danger of working around a horse is getting yourself into a 'trapped' situation. While many farriers and trainers are comfortable working a horse in a confined space , I try to avoid situations where I can be pinned, crushed or simply lack an escape path. Remember... where ever you believe the quickest escape path lies... the horse is probably thinking the same direction!

Pay close attention to anyone else close by. In my opinion, a horse 'handler' (usually the owner) is one of the most likely sources of accidents for the farrier. If restraint is needed, I'd rather tie a horse to a post than have most owners hold the lead.

The big time training clinicians definately have a lot to offer in terms of techniques but little of what they demonstrate is particularly new. Each has their own 'twist' on training and each offers a different style of finesse. Dennis Reis and Chris Cox are about as good as any out there right now. Anderson has a natural finesse that makes everything look easy. Parelli is... well, damn, how about I just leave that one alone. :rolleyes:

All of these guys are as much about marketing as training, but their training accomplishments are self evident. Yeah, they want to make a buck just like anyone else, but I don't think that takes away from their abilities as horseman. It's up to you to separate the horsemanship skills from the marketing hype.

I will share this with you that I think a lot of people simply do not want to believe.

Everytime you interact with a horse, you are training that horse! Every single time!

It doesn't matter how trivial the act is, how benign your intent, or how disinterested you might be at the moment. That horse is watching and learning from you. It never ceases to amaze me how often an owner will present to me a horse 'problem' that they themselves have trained into that animal.

Most farriers will clearly state that they don't train. I beg to differ. Everytime they touch a horse, they are influencing it's behavior going forward.

If you're ever in the neighborhood again, feel free to drop by the stables here and we'll work a few horses together. I'm no Dennis Reis but I've always got a couple in training and I'm more than willing to give someone else a leg up. Bring Bethany along. She and Kate can take a couple on a trail ride while you and I work the arena for awhile.

Best Regards,
Mark

[vthorseshoe]

I had a call last night while e-mailing with Mark.(above poster)

It was from a person 15 minutes away from my home.
He has a Jenny and on Friday he is on his way to Colorado on a hunting trip.
He takes his mule along as a pack animal.

I said I was booked solid and away for the rest of the week so lets do her tonight.
I told Mark I would talk later.

I arrived to find a beautiful appaloosa colored mule about 15:1 H

I stoked her and said to myself this mule is very familiar.

The owner already had her tied extremely short to his trailer and had a death grip on her halter. "RED FLAGS"

I started by asking him to let go of the halter and had to tell him 5 times befor he finally backed off.
I could see he was visibly uncomfortable.

I untied the mule and took her for a short walk, brought her back and tied her with about 3 ft. slack.
I started to reach for the front leg and the owner was on her head in a flash.
I said; Please let her go and stand over there....
He slowly moved away and said the last two shoers had always had him hold her while they worked on her. (she had kicked at each attempt of working on her hind legs and was fussy on her fronts with them, I was told.)
I smiled and said if I get hurt I accept all the responcibility.

I then went back to work.
15 minutes later, His mule had been introduced to my foot stand, (the owner said he had never seen one used on her before) and she was all trimmed on the front.

I then took out my long rope and eased it around her hind legs and gently and slowly raised each hind leg until she was standing calmly.
I then eased under her and trimmed her hind hooves and put them on the foot stand and cleaned her walls.

The owner kept saying "that is the best she has ever !!! been. She fought both other shoers !!
I smiled and said to myself "techniques not taught in schools or by others such as the trainers listed above.

I loaded my tools and in 1/2 and hr had made $40.00 not more than 3 miles from my home. (not to mention a jar of homemade plum jam !!!)

The two other shoers/trimmer I know and they have both been trimming/shoeing for MANY years.

Why did I succeed with no fight when they had a war every time ?(don't take this as a swelled head, I am just talkin g straight with you)

I read the animal.
I developed a relationship with the animal.
I built trust in the animal.
I worked causiously but confidently.

I proved this over and over at Marks Clinic in Ohio on a wide variety of animals.
Visit my website and you will see I offer a 3 day program where I wil work with anyone wanting to improve their horsemanship handling skills.

Horsemanship.

Mark is correct on all the above listed insurance coverage, BUT if you learn to work an animal correctly then you won't need to employ your insurance's "JUST PAY THEIR OVER PRICED HIGHWAY ROBBING PREMIUMS.

I was at a friends home a few days ago and I heard how his wife was a dressage rider.
I watched her ride.
She is a student of dressage riding, not yet a dressage rider.
I have watched folks shoe horses call themselves farriers,. myself included.
They are not farriers, they are students of farriery.

MY point being; Forget the titles and focus on the learning.
That is the best insurance.

Oh ! by the way. It hit me after I had finished working on her, I had trimmed this mule 8 years ago in northern Vermont.

I learned it had been owned by 3 other person since that time.
Nothing wrong with the mule, lack of ability on the owners.
(this owner cares for and about this lovely animal. it was apparent from the concern he had for her and the condition she was in and the surroundings I saw she lived in.)

my 2 cents worth ;)

[DoubleCFarrierService]

You know when I was in shoeing school I got the chance to work with some rank animals. The deal was, owners could bring their horses by and get them trimmed for 10 or shod for 20. This as you can well imagine brought in some horses that didn't get worked on too often. When I first started shoeing school, about the only thing I knew was which end of the horse did what. Let me tell you though, working with those horses taught me many lessons, that I have not forgotten. Kind of funny though how when a horse does blow up you really don't remember a whole lot. Had a horse flip over on me while trying to put shoes on. He decided to pull back and broke his lead. Next thing I know I am getting up off of the ground with a sprained ankle. I got lucky that day. My wife was with me and she said the horse landed on me. I didn't black out just happens so fast sometimes. Makes you wonder.

[Mike Ferrara]

It seems like more and more barns, fairgrounds ect are requiring any subcontractor working on the place to show proof of liability insurance...it's a requirement of their insurance.

Horsemanship is great but it won't prevent everything and folks will hang you out to dry.

Accoding to my attourney (paraphrased if course) Incorporating can provide some protection but that isn't fool proof either. "corporate viels" can be pierced and if a court decides that the business assets aren't adequate...there goes your personal assets.

[caballus]

I read the animal.
I developed a relationship with the animal.
I built trust in the animal.
I worked causiously but confidently.


Bruce ... I like the way you work! :)

What many fail to think of ... when we are asking for the horse to give us his hooves we're asking him to give up his defenses. Now if some stranger or even someone you knew on a casual basis, came up to you and without word or intent just grabbed your leg to look at your foot you'd snatch your leg away pretty quickly! More so for the horse as I said - its his only defense.

Take a few moments to first greet the animal ... let him sniff your hand and give some scritches on the withers. Take him for a bit of a walk and do some hind end disengagements and backing up and lateral movements with him. That goes a long way for the horse in relaying your intent to him as well as securing your position as his leader.

Worked on a Halflinger for the first time yesterday. I've never met this horse before. Was told he was a typical "Halflinger" who had to assert his independant thinking and probably would be the most difficult of the 7 to do. Well, guess what? He, actually, was the easiest but only AFTER I worked his feet a little bit and let him know that *I* was not going to do him harm and *I* was his leader and not the other way around. He then stood quietly, lead rope tossed over his back (no restraint at all), other horses right nearby observing and talking to him, hay stacks right in front and to the side and he didn't move an inch until I asked him to. I wish all my clients were as easy to work on! Of course, as soon as the owner came in and took the lead rope he decided to yank her chains a bit and a slight struggled ensued between owner and horse. I just simply took him back, moved his feet again and asked the owner to stand over on the other side of the barn while I finished. Done. First trim - 8 weeks out - took me no more than 20 mins. to get him wearing some boo-tiful feet! Here's a photo of one of them:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/HPIM5185.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/HPIM5192.jpg

Cute little bugger, isn't he? *GRIN*

[Ray_Knightley]

I am sure horses remember the farrier if done regular times ,that could be every 6 or 8 weeks ,just regular,I remember once years ago I got a new van (rig) big white fiat ducto ...lots of the horses meet me in one area with big eyes and found it hard to stand still ...this was so different it made me think ......wearing the wrong aftershave or what???No the local vet had almost the same van and i am sure that is what mixed the horses up....

WARNING do not use apple shampoo the horses tend to stick to your head and get in the way when working on the stand up front!

when this thread is about insurance to cover illness ,I have wife and 3 young boys ...i have an insurance outside one if i get killed that pays after 2 weeks
whould cover my costs of living which are not low ,also was a nice cash in as i had an ingrowing toe nail ......could stay in bed and got payed for it too ..

people tend to spend money on so many usless things insurence is a good thing in our Job!!

ray knightley

[Rassie SA]

Sometimes if i work with really difficult horses the fist thing you chase away is the dog and if the horse still have a problem you ask the owner if he don't want to do something you will call him if you are finish. Most of the time the owners are the problem to the horses. There are no bad horses only bad owners.

Rassie SA

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I have a diverse business. Aside from the fact that I farm and own property as well as having the equestrian centre. However even just with the Equestrian Centre bit, it's diverse in that I do things other than (just!) train horses. I also build carriages for which I must have product liability. I employ staff to manage horses, train them and generally help out running and managing the riding centre and associated activities. I hire out horse drawn carriages for special occasions and such as film work.

I have something called a Combined Business Policy.

Quite simply it provides Employers Liability, Public Liability, Events Cover, Premises and Buildings cover, Product and Personal liability insurance for every single thing that I, or anyone acting on my behalf in the business does. It saves having to have a whole separate set of policies for each and every thing. Prevents me having to do such as deal with lots of different providers and with such as different exemption clauses or renewal dates. More importantly though it stops anything falling into a crack of not being covered.

Here such as signing waiver releases is deemed to be a waste of time. The law very simply considers if there is any liability or negligence or contributory management factors and if there is then you're liable as far as being responsible for any remedial or even compensatory damage. You can have a waiver engraved on a tablet of stone and it would be ignored at law.

What I do though is documented risk assessment questionnaires. So for training horses I specifically document the condition and behaviour of the horse when it arrives and it's signed by me and the owner. I ask specific questions about what it's like and record the answers. For riding and driving pupils I specifically ask them about their general health and fitness and well being. They sign to confirm they're advised about the intrinsic risks in the sport and to say that they understand they have to abide by all the safety rules e.g. wearing hats etc. The safety requirements are also prominently displayed around the premises at appropriate places. I am a licenced trainer and riding centre too and that again helps to evidence competence and mitigates any possible litigation or liability.

My product liability insurance protects me from a claim arising from such an accident arising with a carriage I've sold.

Employers liability is pretty self explanatory except it's worth mentioning that it's for anyone doing anything for me for hire or reward. So even if say my own daughter helps me out one day by taking some customers out for a ride out. It covers for such as injury or industrial disease arising in the course of employment.

Public liability is £10 million and so if a horse I'm training goes bonkers and escapes and down the road and causes a major accident - covered. Doesn't have to be a horse I own. It's anything in my charge.

Events cover means that if for whatever reason I don't turn up at a special occasion hire and am sued for breach of contract that I'm covered. Because it's horses and I do film work and weddings and such they can be somewhat "big occassions" and say if I've been hired to provide a team of 4 black horses and a carriage and one of the horses goes lame it's difficult to just drop another one in and I might have to either persuade the film company to allow something different or else be likely to have to let them down. So event cover provides for that. It also enables me to even do such as hire another provider or horses or staff member to fulfill the contract if I can.

Here it's conditional on being a licenced Horse Trainer and Riding Centre that there's full public liability insurance and it's defined what the minimum limits of extent are.