Need some input on Laminitic/Navicular

[Phil Armitage]

I just finished the foam block method on a horse in the accute laminitis stage. So far everything seems to be going well, the horse is on bute per Vet. instructions for about a week, so it is hard to tell. He also just started to improve from Navicular syndrome, got his feet balanced and this happened. I was wondering what to watch for in a situation where the horse has just started to improve in the caudle aspect of the feet and is now laminitic. The foam block method seems to be the best choice and the Vet. agrees. X-Rays will be taken after things settle down and then discuss shoeing. Which may be in a couple of weeks. The cause of laminitis was green grass, so that will be under control. Prior to the laminitis, I used the Myron McClaine Full support heart bar pads with Equipak. This worked well, the horse was doing great and was getting back to work with no problems. This horse had a long toe, low heel and misaligned pasturn very sore in the caudle aspect was landing toe first and got him to land flat and move much better. X-Rays showed huge misalignment in the pasturn. He is only 6-7 years old. I am concerned that his legs and feet may not handle all this to well this might stress an area that has already been through a lot of stress to begin with. Any comments or suggestions is welcome. Thanks

[slidinPlate]

phil,

sounds like a big pile!!!

i had a 3 year old futurity horse do almost the same thing. minus the green grass and navicular type symptoms. his acute laminits was due to a high fever that is what we(farrier vet team)can speculate was the cause.

this week is pretty much useless with the bute, however if he is on bute and stays in foam he should be in a small area. so if he does get to feeling to well due to his drug induced state that he doesn't do anymore damage thatn has already taken place.

as far as the caudal portion of his feet getting better, that is the portion of his foot that he needs to use and load. from the widest part back. especially when going through this stage. his he landing heel first? i am shure after a while in the foam he will achieve this. that is if the caudal portion is not sore. load what is not sore and take the load off what is sore. were does he tell you he is sore when you run your hoof testers???

i hope that thing's go well for you. actually that futurity horse i was talking about has been in foam for 6 weeks now. tomorrow i am going back out to see what he will appreciate on his feet. I am thinking that he might only need a simply system( nb wedge pad, impression material and alum nb shoe. with the break over at the tip of p-3) versus an elaborate system. we will see

hope that thing's turn out well. oh if you have some cotton put it over the heel bulbs before you duct tape, those bulbs get pretty raw!!! keep an eye on the thrush, but remember, lamanitis will kill'em thrush won't. keep the foam on at all costs. until you think he can progress on with some sort of a system. of course conversing with your vet.

that';s just my 2 cents. hope the adventure is fun.

Don

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Phil, looking good no worries, other than the laminitis and the navicular syndrom! :D

I would not have waited until things settle down to take rads. Make them as soon as you can so you have film from as early as possible to use as a reference in later devellopments. (Great sentence huh?)

And Phil the good news is that you may well have saved this horses life by making sure the feet were better balanced when the laminitis struck. Imagine what that horse would have to go through when his feet were in the poor shape you found them in at the time the lamellae were loosing the towing battle to the DDFT.


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Thanks for the replys.

Don, It is a big pile, his knees wobble just standing still, he walks OK, but that is on bute. Next week I can get a better idea becuase there lowering the amount of bute to no bute. He is sore in the toe up to the widest part of the foot on bute when I tested him. Fortunately no reaction to the hoof testers in the back part of the foot. Thanks for the cotton idea, I will add that when I go to check on him, I know it can get pretty ugly and raw, but like you said that is nothing compared to founder. If he does not rotate and I do not think he will, I am going with NB Alum. pad and impression material. I hope the caudle aspect of the feet can take it. They do have a small area with no grass or other horses.

Ron, he crushed the RF foam in the toe real quick, lots of pull on the deep flexor. I hung around for awhile and derotated the foam block. Shows how much pull there is on the coffin bone. It is a good thing his feet were at least in balance and that toe was back I think it could have been bad. I pulled his shoes and rockered the toe before putting on the blocks. I will mention to the owner and Vet that we need X-Rays sooner, I agree with that also.

Thanks again.

[J.H. shoeing]

Phil

Sounds like you are on track. I agree with Ronald thatI would like to see rads all during the treatment. I just had one that was a very low percentage of living make it into a case where we looked like hero's. The horse was thin, sores, bad abcesses, infections, unstable P3 and bad alignment of the boney collum. We (the owner, me and the vet) got the horse out of the woods and she coliced and died. Me and the Vet that reffered me had about five months of diligent care involved and the owner had about ten months invested. Sometimes they make it sometimes they don't. You are in a high percentage of recovery with this horse.

Jeff

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Phil,

You need as much X rays as the owner is prepared to pay for! It's your only chance to find out if P3 is sinking (bigger C.E. distance) and/or the sole depth is loosing thinkness fast, indicating major mechanical chances within the hoof capsule.

I wondered about you derotating the styrofoam. What do you mean with that?

Thanks for sharing Phil.


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Phil, also if the horse is not stable enough for shoeing when taken OFF the bute (I suggest as soon as possible) , indicating a need for longer period of taped on support, I suggest switching from styrofoam to the dense purple podiatry foam,(the half inch thick podiatry pads with adhesive on one side) , with imression material molded in the caudal part of the foot. This support package,taped on with Elastcon instead of duct tapt, is a liitle bit more "breathable" ,more maintainance free, and the hoofwall won't get as hydrated as with Styrofoam.
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

Ron, in Gene's instructions, he recommends derotateing lowering the back half of the block if it crushes fast in the toe (best explanation I can give).

Patty, thanks for the advice. I never understood the application, do you cut them to fit the whole foot or just the back half. Sounds like a better way to this horse, especially the use of the different tape.

Thanks.

[Ronald Aalders]

Would that mean you turn the block around? I mean after the horse clearly showed it wants to put its heels up and its toe down the block should be turned around?

Well this just goes to show that if Gene is right here, he's way out in front of me!


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

You would have to ask Gene. The way I understand it is to prevent to steep of an angle on the pasturn as the block compressis. I quess you could turn the block around, but it has already started to make a foot print in it. I recall the instructions are to rasp the back of the block down a little. I only brought this up because it struck me how fast the toe compressed into the block.

[Ronald Aalders]

I'm the first to accept that all we think or feel is the thruth in treating laminitis is just want we think works. That goes for me too.

The funny thing is that this rapid toe compression of styrofoam happened to me too and my conclusion was that DDFT pull, not body weight, abcesses, or other factors are the primary reasons for the dramatic distorsion you find in a lot of laminitic feet. From that point I've been working a lot of years now, and have been pretty succesfull too (or lucky?). Sofar I found a lot of things that supported the (suspected?) role of DDFT in laminitis. I did not find much that I could not explain without the DDFT pull in mind.

Guys, try it FGS. If you don´t like to wedge up the feet to a 20 degree PA, at least use a banana. Although I'm sure Redden's 20 degree palmar angle would strike you being pretty similar to the angle you found the horse in when it crushed the styrofoam! Stil if you feel that's too radical use a banana instead of any other shoe you would want to put on there. A banana heartbar if you feel like it! DO add a wedge, a 3 degree if you feel more is too radical (you need a pad to keep your arch support in anyway because that way you need less of that stuff, hey it's expensive). Before you do anything be sure P3 has not rotated or is derotated. After rotation you should start trimming from somewhere at the tip of the frog or somewhere behind it to derotate P3.

Guys, that guy up in KY is not the only one with such findings! Phil now is one with such findings and in an atricle by M.L. Steward, on "How to construct and Apply Atraumatic The****utic Shoes to Treat Acute or Chronic Laminitis in the Horse" published during the 49th Annual Convention of the American Association of Equine Practitioners, 2003, New Orleans, LA, Steward says at this picture: "This horse would walk on his toes to relieve some of the pull of the deep digital flexor tendon. The left shoe has been removed and shows how the right shoe is enabling the horse "to walk on his toes". Note that the left ankle is pulled forward, indicating that the horse wants to stand on the left toe as well (he did with the shoe on). The yellow impression material (noted on the right frog-bulb junction) was held in place by Vetwrap until it "set up", forming a sole cushion that seems to aid in digital hemodynamics if applied properly."


I'll get of my soapbox now..................



Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Ron, in Gene's instructions, he recommends derotateing lowering the back half of the block if it crushes fast in the toe (best explanation I can give).

Patty, thanks for the advice. I never understood the application, do you cut them to fit the whole foot or just the back half. Sounds like a better way to this horse, especially the use of the different tape.

Thanks.

Phil, the instructions are to turn the block around IF in the very first few minutes they smash the front so much that they are going to fall off the blocks and it will come off.
Derotating the block with the rasp is for after it has compressed,has been taken out of the foot and cut back to fit just behind the frog apex (behind a sore line found with the hoof testers) . This trimming step is done after one or two days compressing the first block.
If the compressed block became a significant wedge it is derotated a bit mainly so it will stay in the foot better, but do not worry, you will then add a second WHOLE block on the botom of the first trimmed one, and that one can also crush to the angle the horse wants.
If the horse is large, or they really like wedge, then you can trim the second block to match the shape of the first,ape them together place both back in the foot, and add a third whole one.The two trimed blocks together will achieve the wedge they need and the third whole one protects the sole.

I like the newer purple podiatry pads a lot better .
They basically are applied similar except all at once because there is no waiting for them to compress.
Impression material placed in the caudal foot (kept behind the sore areas) and set up flat on the bottom with a hard impression plate taped on.
The hard plate is removed , and one purple pad trimmed to the same shape as the impression material, (behind the sore area).
Stick that small piece to the impression material,
then add one WHOLE purple pad to the bottom ,
and elasticon the whole thing to the foot.
The half piece of purple pad between the impresion material and the bottom pad creaes a bit of wedge and is somewhat forgiving at the same time too. And the horse can roll over medial laterally easier too.
And it can then be left alone a week or more. :D

I added this sketch to maybe help. The foot I drew is rotated and fairly distorted in the toe ,but some more acute horses will not have have much toe distortion yet so be SURE to GENTLY use your hoof testers to find the tip of p3 to trim the impresion material if you do not have Xrays.

Oh heres another little tip..those who really want a wedge are usually rotating more than sinking . Those who crush the foam flat are usually sinking more straight down.
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Ron, the way this horse crushed the block certainly raises questions about the pull of the DFT. I have been thinking about it ever since.

Patty, thanks for the instructions on how to apply the purple pads. Cody sent me some awhile back. I did wonder if I should turn the block around or rasp it. Oh well, there on and seems to be doing him some good. I used a pair of purple pads on this horse with the foam blocks. What I did was apply the 2" foam blocks let them compress for 24 hrs. Came back the next evening cut the foam pad so it was about a 1/4" behind the apex of the frog, pain was less in that area with hoof testers. Put the compressed blue foam pad and the purple pad on. The purple pad covers the entire foot. I talked to the owner last night. She has him off the bute since Thurs eve. and is turning him out in a small area no grass and he is alone. He is walking around and seems comfortable. Vet is comeing out this week to take X-rays. I am going to change over to the method that Patty suggested. Much easier and seems like it will be better for the feet. I was thinking of putting some Venice Turpentine under the impressio material. Talked to a women that sells Magic Cushion. It is a hoof packing made of leather and "Pure Venetian Turpentine". I might pick up some Magic Cushion and try it. Has anyone tried it?

I still like the blue foam blocks, it seems like a nice method to get the horse where they need to be slowly.

[calshoer]

Gene uses Magic Cushion all the time. It has a whole bunch of stuff in it including capsaisin (the hot pepper exract that is sometimes found in linamants and helps kill pain) and seems to help on sore soled horses. It is REAL sticky and mesy to handle that is the only reason it is not my personal; favorite.(I use Hawthorn "sole pack", which is a ground leather, pine tar ,iodine packing)
Most people who use Magic Cushion just use some kind of scoop like an old big spoon to apply it. And do NOT get it in your eyes or on any sensitive body parts. :eek:
Patty