navicular syndrome ,ManMade?!

[Ray_Knightley]

I have a few horses that have been through this sort of trimming ,have you seen anything like it?Iwill let the pictures speek for them self!....................ps 3 weeks after the trimmer came!

[David Gill]

Hi, sorry but what has this type of trimming got to do with navicular syndrome?
Please explain.

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Low heels and a long toe will lame, and lead to Navicular.

I have been called out to many horses over the last two years,
to fix what is being toted as the new trim (I forget the latest name for it)

A local Farrier here, (one that use to be a friend???)
We took the same training at the same school, and he knew better,
decided to go south and get the latest training in this type of trimming,

Came back and started to lame horses.
I have heard many people say how disgusted they are.

And these photos on this page are how the feet have looked.

Low heels and a long toe will lame, and lead to Navicular.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

David Gill in gray

Hi, sorry but what has this type of trimming got to do with navicular syndrome? Please explain.

Removal of heel without regard for phalangeal alignment can cause the deep digital flexor tendon to place the distal sesamoid in greater compression and
increase pressure on the posterior third of the distal interphalangeal joint, either or both of which can present as palmar hoof pain (aka "navicular syndrome").

[Ronald Aalders]

David Gill in gray

Hi, sorry but what has this type of trimming got to do with navicular syndrome? Please explain.

Removal of heel without regard for phalangeal alignment can cause the deep digital flexor tendon to place the distal sesamoid in greater compression and
increase pressure on the posterior third of the distal interphalangeal joint, either or both of which can present as palmar hoof pain (aka "navicular syndrome").


Removal of heel, without regard for phalangeal alignment can cause the deep flexor tendon to place increased pull on its attachment to the pedal bone, thus increasing compression to the distal sesmoid, but more importantly increase compression by the anterior part of the pedal bone on the circumflex vessels underneath it, while at the same time reduced heel height allows increased compression to to the posterior part of the pedal bone.

In other words lowering of heels will increase DDFT pull and lower the distance between the wings of P3 and the ground. As a result the anterior part of P3 compresses down, while when loaded the ground reaction forces compress upward toward the posterior part of P3.

The distal sesmoid acts as a pulley. The HPA influences the position of the distal sesmoid in relation to the DIPJ. That position of the distal sesmoid does not only influence the amount of pull, it also influences the direction of the pull of DDFT to P3.

Thanks Tom, you created a brain wave.


Ronald Aalders

[David Gill]

Well, if you say so…but what does everyhorseisapersontoo have to say about those hooves posted?

And what were those hooves like before the trim; also according to everyhorseisapersontoo these hooves were trimmed three weeks ago.

So, what were they like before and what has happened to them since.
And so far as I’m aware navicular syndrome is a label associated with shod horses.

More explanations please!

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

David Gill in gray, stuff deleted

And so far as I’m aware navicular syndrome is a label associated with shod horses.

Palmar heel pain (aka, "navicular syndrome") is not limited to shod horses. the pathology has been diagnosed here in the States in horses that have never been shod, primarily in QH-type horses that have large bodies atop tiny feet.

More explanations please!

Your turn. :)

[Jaye Perry]

Tom Stovall, CJF-
Palmar heel pain (aka, "navicular syndrome") is not limited to shod horses. the pathology has been diagnosed here in the States in horses that have never been shod, primarily in QH-type horses that have large bodies atop tiny feet.



Kinda like this one Mr. Tom. 2years old, no shoes, but holes and a fracture due to (some say) genetics(?):


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/4CB40005original.jpg

[Jason Maki]

Looks like a GSW!
Jason

[Bradley-1stChoice]

. . . And so far as I’m aware navicular syndrome is a label associated with shod horses.

You have read to many, Old Mac's hoof boot ads in magazines.
They have always said that shoes cause Navicular.
Unfounded, untrue, and a lie.

That is why any time an owner asks about them, I advise against them.
I will never support a company that lies, in order to sell a product.

[Gary Hill]

Jason, is that your first Texas Bass?:D

[bumfoot SHOER]

Jason, is that your first Texas Bass?:D

hay gary that looks like the day jason hung a sign in the window gone fishing

[David Gill]

Well, I don’t know why Tom should think it’s my turn but…

Its no good talking about certain types of horses that go with out shoes as being prone to having ‘navicular syndrome’ (or ‘palmar heel pain’), unless you can illustrate what type of hooves they are (shape wise).

To say it’s due to “large bodies atop tiny feet”, well, how larger bodies to what size hooves?

Jaye, who always has a stash of images and must have a wealth of experience, has provided an x-ray but with regard that horse, what was the animals overriding hoof shape throughout its two year lifespan?

And those hooves shown by ‘everyhorseisapersontoo’ were they trimmed lower than this much talked about ‘live sole’ technique?

[Rick Burten]

Its no good talking about certain types of horses that go with out shoes as being prone to having ‘navicular syndrome’ (or ‘palmar heel pain’), unless you can illustrate what type of hooves they are (shape wise).

I don't know how it is over where you are, but here, any experienced horseman or farrier can, in his/her mind, see exactly that to which Tom refers. :o

To say it’s due to “large bodies atop tiny feet”, well, how larger bodies to what size hooves?

A thousand pound horse on seven hundred pound feet. If that doesn't draw up a solid mental image for you, then you need to come over here and spend some time looking at horses that look like that.....:)

Along with those horses that have chronic, unaddressed LTLH.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

David Gill in gray

Well, I don’t know why Tom should think it’s my turn but…

Everybody gets a turn :)

Its no good talking about certain types of horses that go with out shoes as being prone to having ‘navicular syndrome’ (or ‘palmar heel pain’), unless you can illustrate what type of hooves they are (shape wise).

Both long and lows and upright and stubbies can exacerbate symptoms - all else being equal, it's not the shape of hoof, per se, it's the interaction of hard and soft structures within the hoof (hydraulics) and the relationship of the suspensory apparatus to the bony column - whether resultant of genetics or rasp - that can predispose a horse to palmar hoof pain.

To say it’s due to “large bodies atop tiny feet”, well, how larger bodies to what size hooves?

In my experience, it's quite common to find 1,000 - 1,400 lb QH-type horses that can wear 00 or 000 shoes. The disproportinate relationship between the hooves' volumetric capacity and horse's weight adversely affects the hydraulics necessary for the redirection of forces inherent to motion.

[David Gill]

Firstly, if Rick is inviting me over to see him sometime I’d like that.

And secondly, its not that I’m in acute disagree with most of the statements you experienced guys have to say, it’s just that I’m not convinced that you are really discussing those hooves shown in the pictures.

Now looking at those hooves at the start of this thread I would have thought less of caudal heel pain and more of ouch! What have those horses been left to stand on because if I had seen hooves trimmed as short as those, I would have expected to see a very uncomfortable animal!

[Rick Burten]

Firstly, if Rick is inviting me over to see him sometime I’d like that.


Soups on and the door is always open....

[Gary Hill]

The photos that the OP put up remind of feet that the barefoot road riders end up with.:mad: The only differance is the edges are at least rolled in his photos, and when the BRR's need shaped up ,thats all you have to work with.:rolleyes:

[Jason Maki]

Thats not a texas bass, I caught that one (20 1/2 inches. atleast 6 lbs but only a guess) at my in laws farm pond in medina.Oh. First cast and the first pop of the hula popper and he exploded out of the water! A few weeks pror I had a bigger fish up to the dock, but could not reach him to gill him and pull him up... he slipped the knot and got away... my fist would have fit in his mouth!so I brought the net and landd his little brother. (ever notice ho the "better" fish always got away?):o
Jason

[Gary Hill]

Jason, wait until you get to fish Lake Fork!

[David Gill]

Hi, this is a message for Rick.

I don’t think I’ve ever had a nicer invitation; I would love to come over and play with the big boys!

I was thinking of applying for a travelling scholarship; I may have missed the deadline but the thought of travelling the US and meeting you guys is very appealing.
However, I shall still question what you guys do, that is my nature!

[Jaye Perry]

Hi, this is a message for Rick.

I don’t think I’ve ever had a nicer invitation; I would love to come over and play with the big boys!

I was thinking of applying for a travelling scholarship; I may have missed the deadline but the thought of travelling the US and meeting you guys is very appealing.
However, I shall still question what you guys do, that is my nature!


Please Apply David!!!! Hell , PM me and I will make arrangements outside the red Tape.:cool:

[Kevin L. Wyatt]

I now most of this conversation has bin on low heels being the cause of Navicular and do see that patent ional, but it is still one of those it depends thing. I just redone a horse that had bin set up in some ****y aluminum package that jack his heels way of the ground. This horse was 4 legged lame, and according to the owner twice as bad as he was before the ****y package. I asked the owner to see x-rays, and as I was looking at them I said ok I give up what foot has the Navicular. The owner said the horse did not have navicular. OK then why the $250 dollar pair of ****y special aluminum Navicular shoes. The owner said the Farrier and vet want to put them on to Keep the horse from getting Navicular. Now the horse has contracted under run heels, and an over all foot that most walking folks would love to see. But this horse is a 1300 pound QH Stud that has the feet you all are talking about. I can tell you machine made size but I used 10 " of 3/8 8 3/4 and bump the heels, and thin the toe back to 10 1/5 and had heel to spare.


My point is Navicular/syndrome can come from more than low heels, and more than not does. This horse now has a better chance of getting navicular than if they would have just left him a lone. He has no bony column support at all. His frog was a good 1" of the ground before it even touched let alone load. Plus yes raising the heels relief’s stress on the DDF, but puts stress on the SFF, and ME, ECT. This also had his bony column out of alignment, and lengthen his flangele lever witch is an oxy ***** to raising the heels to relief pressure of the DDF as when the flangele lever is longer the more stress on the DDF at brake over witch puts more stress on the Navicular. This also set him up for thrush witch he had a ton of. He had more thrush than frog do to the high heels keeping the frog of the ground and not letting it load and unload self-cleaning.

I pulled the heels back to support the bony column witch means I cut them down, and pulled the toe back to AP balance. Then build a wedge shoe to adjust his alignment. Hope fully a few more shoeing and we can get read of the wedge shoe. We had to put the wedge shoe on this time as the heels were crashed, and I had to cut them down to good horn. I would have like to have put a heart bar on for bony column support, but with how bad the thrush was I wanted the owner to be able to clean that mess up.

It is not stressing low heels high heels that matter. It is stressing correctly balance foot to each individual equine, and there environment/usage.

As for the OP’s pic’s we do not know if the horse is in pain from to low of heel causing heel pain or if the pain is simply not enough foot. If the horse had more foot all around would that not leave more heel, and if the balance is correct simple fix

[Rick Burten]

However, I shall still question what you guys do, that is my nature!

Wouldn't have it any other way...:)