Comments Requested

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

Hey all:

Comments on this photo would be greatly appreciated.

This is not a client of mine and I don't know anything about this horse except for this photo. She sent it to me after a brief chat we had at the the local grocery store. The horse is apparently going to be shod tomorrow with "Smooth Walker" shoes? The owner has been told that this is not white line disease because and I quote:

" he was checked and its not white line There is no infection and discharge and no smell , its not hot he was never lame he has no tenderness he didn't get a fever. the vet did put him on an antibiotic just to be safe."

Apparently this sometimes get better and then comes back. I know what I would do here but........what do I know.

I'll pass on anything you post here to the owner.

Thanks alot

Maryann

[Phil Armitage]

Looks like a victim of poor liveing conditions and lack of hoof care to me.

[Ronald Aalders]

I'm not really sure, but could you get us some side views too?

I kind of looks like a double or retained sole of some sort, a side view would help.


Ronald Aalders

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

Hey Ron:

Sorry, but this is the only shot I've got. Why do you think retained sole? My initial response was white line disease but we hardly see any up here so my experience with it is limited.

I can't really do any thing for this horse. The woman seems content with his foot care and is going the route of trying "Smooth Walker" shoes cause her "farrier" says the horse is "landing too hard" and that's what causes this problem.

Thanks for your interest. I've never seen anything like this in my practice, so I'm mostly interested in what you all might think.

all good things

Maryann

[Jeanie Connors]

If it isn't white line disease, it looks like some serious toe flare (it does look like a very long toe just snapped in the front from the pressure, then frayed at the edges). The heels look long/underrun also. I can't speak for Ron, but what could make it look like retained sole to me would be the area just at the apex of the frog, kind of dipped in and crackly (I know, I'm great with words :rolleyes: ).

[Just passin through~]

I'm not really sure, but could you get us some side views too?

I kind of looks like a double or retained sole of some sort, a side view would help.


Ronald Aalders

Ron,if you had a radiograph in front of you along side your wife,would it make you feel better? In the way that you would know exactly what to do? Just kidding~ Ronnie,do you own a hoof guage?

[Derin Foor]

I would tend to agree with Ron....looks like a retained sole......most retained soles that I have seen have bars that wrap around the apex of the frog and sometimes will lift out all in one piece along with the retained sole....bonus points for one piece removal ;)

it makes me wonder if she's really content with the way the horse is being trimmed or simply happy that it isn't costing her much....sounds like she is second guessing her farrier to start with..... I doubt any of us would nail a shoe to that mess without a proper trim first

just my opinion

Derin

[Just passin through~]

I would tend to agree with Ron....looks like a retained sole......most retained soles that I have seen have bars that wrap around the apex of the frog and sometimes will lift out all in one piece along with the retained sole....bonus points for one piece removal ;)

it makes me wonder if she's really content with the way the horse is being trimmed or simply happy that it isn't costing her much....sounds like she is second guessing her farrier to start with..... I doubt any of us would nail a shoe to that mess without a proper trim first

just my opinion

Derin
Derrin,i'm with you! I would never nail a shoe on anything that looked like that
without a trim! How would you go about prepareing that foot? And if you had to shoe the horse what size nails would you use?

[Derin Foor]

Derrin,i'm with you! I would never nail a shoe on anything that looked like that
without a trim! How would you go about prepareing that foot? And if you had to shoe the horse what size nails would you use?

it's hard to say with only seeing one view of the foot, but it looks like a lot of toe could come off.......the shoe would likely have at least 2 clips since the nailing area might be extremely limited.....might have to glue the shoe on for a time or two to start... I think a good breakover on the shoe and probably some frog support would really benefit the foot/horse.......after that, a reasonably clean environment and regular hoofcare so all the work isnt for nothing

Derin

[Gary_Miller]

Well unless this is a draft horse, my bet is there is a lot of flare that is causing hoof distortion. I would remove the retained sole and trim to the live sole plan then remove the flares. I think that once the distortion is removed there will be penty of good wall to nail to but can't know for sure without seeing the condition of the whole hoof first. As for the shoe and nail size I'm still learning what is best for each situation so won't comment.

The most important thing to do here is to address the the hoof distortion.

gary

[Derin Foor]

Well unless this is a draft horse, my bet is there is a lot of flare that is causing hoof distortion.

Unless Mayann has extremely small hands, I would assume this is at least a draft cross or bigger.....which brings up an interesting point....why is it conventional wisdom that drafts should have big ugly flares that crack and offer no support to the horse????... the drafts I shoe and trim have feet much like the saddle horses, only larger....good sound feet that can support the excess weight

Derin

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

Hey guys:

These are not my hands, I have never actually laid eyes or hands on this horse. I believe he is an arab or an arab cross.

Thanks for all the interest in this.

Maryann

[Ronald Aalders]

Ron,if you had a radiograph in front of you along side your wife,would it make you feel better? In the way that you would know exactly what to do? Just kidding~ Ronnie,do you own a hoof guage?


On re-reading some posts I came across this brilliant remark! So sorry I missed it the first time!

To answer the question, yes I do feel a lot better when I'm along side my wife!


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Ron I think he was implying that Patty is your wife. If I recall right, I think he made a joke of it on another thread. This is why he also asked if you carry a hoof qauge. He has a problem trimming without one.

[jack-mac]

well it looks to me that the horse has a dropped sole must of had a mild attack of founder at some stage sole looks a little fleshy from standing in wet bogey conditions or wet sand wouldn't go paring out that sole or you would have a very lame horse just lower the heals trim the toe back and dress the hole foot with Stockholm tar regularly the foot will improve the dropped sole will all ways be there shoeing shouldn't be a problem if you know what your doing

[tbloomer]

Hey all:

Comments on this photo would be greatly appreciated.

This is not a client of mine and I don't know anything about this horse except for this photo. She sent it to me after a brief chat we had at the the local grocery store. The horse is apparently going to be shod tomorrow with "Smooth Walker" shoes? The owner has been told that this is not white line disease because and I quote:

" he was checked and its not white line There is no infection and discharge and no smell , its not hot he was never lame he has no tenderness he didn't get a fever. the vet did put him on an antibiotic just to be safe."

Apparently this sometimes get better and then comes back. I know what I would do here but........what do I know.

I'll pass on anything you post here to the owner.

Thanks alot

Maryann
Looks like a picture of a horse whose owner does not understand the concepts of "regular" hoof care or "proper husbandry environment." There is no magic shoe that will solve that problem. :mad:

[T.L. Buck]

Looks to me it just needs regular scheduled hoof care. I would be willing to bet that the horse hasn't been trimmed in a looooong time. It also looks to me that that hoof is very dry. The sole and frog look petrified. I would recommend soaking them or standing them in a bucket of warm water before trimming and after the trim apply a good solid consistency hoof dressing to help retain the moisture. The hoof dressing should be applied regularly. I don't think that shoeing this horse would be effective till his feet are cleaned up. Now before I get attacked I am basing my info on a photograph without seeing the horse. I guess it could be interpreted numerous ways.

[ranchoblanco]

That picture was over a year ago. It would be nice to see what it looks like today. Any side bets on present condition? I'll go 10 to 1 on no improvement- due to improper hoof care.
Mike

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Funnily enough, it still looks like a draft horse hoof to me, but nothing like the hooves on my Clydie. As for what I think is wrong from 1 cruddy little picture, I have to agree with the honorary "kaas-kop" about the retained sole, but hey, I'm not there to pick the bloody hoof up.

[jack-mac]

All i have to say is that every good book ever written on trimming & shoeing talks about the evils of paring away the protective thickness of the sole in a misapplied zeal for smooth thin neatness of appearance and a statement I find in all of them books" to do so is nothing short of criminal "just food for thought

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

All i have to say is that every good book ever written on trimming & shoeing talks about the evils of paring away the protective thickness of the sole in a misapplied zeal for smooth thin neatness of appearance and a statement I find in all of them books" to do so is nothing short of criminal "just food for thoughtDepends on the horse, where it is, what it does, yada yada yada .............

[jvzieger]

My opinion...

If you look at all the pock marks in the sole, and the frog, it's pretty clear that some fungi have attacked this foot.

Also, it's pretty obvious to me that the toe is about 1" too long, and the heels are about 1/4" too long.

I agree that too much sole paring will be dangerous, because the sole has been eaten by fungus, and is likely to be thin and a little spongy.

It also appears that the white line is just outside the actual white line on this picture.

Here's what I would do. I'd immediatelly nip off all that extra toe and some of the heel. Then I'd level the foot. Then I'd wire brush the heck out of the sole. I might try to pare it out a LITTLE bit if it didn't give to thumb pressure.

If what appears to me is white line disease has travelled up the dorsal wall, I would dig that out whereever I found it (of course trying to avoid red food coloring).

When all that was done, I'd bag the foot and soak with a chlorine dioxide and light acid mix (something that was shown to to me to be a VERY effective fungal and bacterial killer).

Then, I would dress back all the flaring in the wall to a uniform thickness following the plane of the new growth.

Lastly, I'd shoe the horse however I normally shoe the horse unless I had to do too much resection chasing the potential white line issue. If that were the case, I'd probably use a Sigafoos glue-on.

As for the vet prescribing antibiotics - "just in case". This seems absolutely wrong to me. First of all, as we all know, over prescribing antibiotics for no good reason only hinders it's effectiveness when needed, and builds antibiotic resistent microbes. Second, we also probably all know that antibiotics don't really affect the feet. Finally, what in the world are the antibiotics being prescribed for??? What is the pathology???

Good luck, I hope some of this helps. :)

[jvzieger]

Oh, about not seeing white line too often in Ontario...

Last years hurricanes blew lots of foreign spores up the coast and over the lakes. Combine that with all the moisture we've been having this year, and you have a banner year for fungus. This has been a mushroom collectors dream year.

We're not used to seeing it that bad here either, but I've seen more cases than ever.
I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but I'd personally bet a fair amount on me being right.

[jack-mac]

Ha ron how long you been a farrier mate been one me self for 33 years have shot more horses crippled through ignorance & parring knife then almost any other course Dare say will probably shoot many more before I retire when you get your self a BVSc mate you will be able to shoe and shoot them keep pairing away yada yada yada your self tool

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

If the horse has been with its current owner for some time, then the best thing that could be said is that judging from the horse's appalling foot condition, the owner isn't fit to own a horse.

They didn't get like that in a short time nor with good management. And I'm no farrier but if the owner thinks that putting a pair of shoes on is going to sort out what looks to be white line disease, then he/she must believe in santa claus and fairies at the bottom of the garden!

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Ha ron how long you been a farrier mate been one me self for 33 years have shot more horses crippled through ignorance & parring knife then almost any other course Dare say will probably shoot many more before I retire when you get your self a BVSc mate you will be able to shoe and shoot them keep pairing away yada yada yada your self toolHey, I'll be the first to admit, I haven't been at this game that long. The point I was trying to make is that I know nothing about the horse, where it is, what it does, etc, etc, etc. All we have to work on here is a cruddy little photo. I DONT do over the phone diagnosis. I might say it sounds like this, or it could be that, BUT, I wont be sure till I get there. Until I have that hoof in my hand, and I've looked at where he lives, and all those other little details, what I think here counts for squat.

[jvzieger]

Ha ron how long you been a farrier mate been one me self for 33 years have shot more horses crippled through ignorance & parring knife then almost any other course Dare say will probably shoot many more before I retire when you get your self a BVSc mate you will be able to shoe and shoot them keep pairing away yada yada yada your self tool


Well that was a helpful reply, and well spoken also. :confused:

If I'm not mistaken, The OP said "COMMENTS" requested. And you may also note, I lead my post with "my opinion" and ended my post with something similar.

I also stressed IF ANY PARING IS TO BE DONE, IT'S TO BE DONE LIGHTLY.

I have one picture to go on, that's my best guess, it's not a prescription (unlike the vet who prescribed antibiotics, just because).

I'm sure you're a good farrier with an open mind. :p

Oh, and I totally agree with you that the horse has been foundered, and that is the cause of the seedy toe, but that does not change what needs to be done to resolve it.

[jack-mac]

Sweet mate thought you were being smart. I only got on this forum to share my knowledge and experience. And believe me i have alot. Ive cut up more horses then i care to think about, my family's been in this game 10 generations. Can tell you alot by looking at that photo, i know for a fact that that horse has been mildly foundered. It will have slight seedy toe, a horse only gets seedy toe if its foundered. No buts about it. So pearing the sole away would not be wise. Not my customer so its not my headache. Just trying to be helpful, thats what i thought this site was all about. all the best Jack.

[jvzieger]

Sweet mate thought you were being smart. I only got on this forum to share my knowledge and experience. And believe me i have alot. Ive cut up more horses then i care to think about, my family's been in this game 10 generations. Can tell you alot by looking at that photo, i know for a fact that that horse has been mildly foundered. It will have slight seedy toe, a horse only gets seedy toe if its foundered. No buts about it. So pearing the sole away would not be wise. Not my customer so its not my headache. Just trying to be helpful, thats what i thought this site was all about. all the best Jack.


I've cut up and buried a few myself. I was not being smart, I was being humble. I don't know if I'm right, but it was my best guess. Comments were requested, comments were given.

I'm not attacking you Jack, so don't take this wrong, this is a general statement. You say your family has been in this for ten generations, and you've got 30ish years experience yourself. That's good, and I'm sure you know quite a lot about shoeing a horse. However, there have been a lot of mistakes repeated for years because of tradition with no scientific research (ie. wedging the heels on a "Navicular" horse) so, longevity does not impress me.

I'm NOT saying that you are personally guilty of using any bad traditional practices as you may be a great farrier who lives in continuing education also. Just your involvement here implies that you are willing to learn and willing to share. I'm merely saying that practice the wrong thing for years does not make perfect, practicing perfection makes perfect (of course, there is NO perfect, that's just an expression in case something gets lost in translation).

Have a good day mate, I meant you no disrespect.

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

Hey all:

Just noticed that this thread is active again.

FYI, apparently a new vet got involved. Cultures taken, white line disease diagnosed and treated (can't remember the exact treatment, I'm hearing this all from the owner who's a clerk at the local grocery store). Believe it or not this horses feet were getting done every six weeks (I didn't say they were getting done well) so this wasn't deliberate neglect on the owners part. The guy who does them doesn't know what the hell he's doing but..... he does the horses at the bottom end of the food chain around here and most of his clients don't know any better. The problem is no one else wants to do these backyard horses so this is the kind of "professional" care these folks are stuck with.

As to white line in "Ontario". I am about a thousand miles from anywhere that would have been affected by "hurricane" influence. Ontario's a very big province, though those that live in the south tend to forget about "the other side of the map". Our climate conditions are nothing like those in the south of the province. I've been shoeing fulltime here for 15 years and have only seen one other case and the horse arrived with it (from Texas if I remember correctly)

Anyway, I don't know anything else about the current condition of his feet. I do know that she is still using the same "farrier" so I wouldn't expect a huge improvement.

Maryann

[tbloomer]

This has been a mushroom collectors dream year.
Hmmmm, what kind of dreams are these mushroom collectors having? :confused: :D

[Rick Burten]

Lucy in the sky with diamonds.... and a Purple Haze. That's what kind of dreams those mushroomcollectors are having.... :D

[fairweatherforge]

Lucy in the sky with diamonds.... and a Purple Haze. That's what kind of dreams those mushroomcollectors are having.... :D

Do you have there #

[Rick Burten]

Do you have there #
Sorry, I lost it years ago while in a Purple Haze :o

[Jaye Perry]

Sorry, I lost it years ago while in a Purple Haze :o
I know you didn't fine this when the haze lifted:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=507732229697832036&hl=en

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I know you didn't fine this when the haze lifted:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=507732229697832036&hl=en

:eek: Yuck I'd just finished my dinner! :(

[Corey M innick]

My kinda woman

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Jaye Perry[/b]] I know you didn't fine this when the haze lifted:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...697832036&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=507732229697832036&hl=en)Do we need to ask why you had such a ready reference to this video?:cool:

My kinda woman :eek:

[Jaye Perry]

My kinda woman
Here is her "sissster" Corey; take your Pick:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1863384666670998353&q=genre%3Acomedy&hl=en

[jack-mac]

you are one sick puppy that's a huge bit****ch she needs to get back to the circus and take her sister with her

[poloshoer1]

looking at this photo, my initial opinion is that this is the type of hoof that I love to work on. The photo may be somewhat deceptive, but it looks as if there is a ton of hoof there to work with. dressing this foot back and shoeing it properly will make any competent farrier look like a hero!

[poloshoer1]

okay, this is the first time i've been on this site in a few years, I just noticed that I am responding to a picture posted in 2005. I'll figure this thing out here in a second. sorry

[Bradley-1stChoice]

My guess is that the posting here ain't over yet,
cause that fat lady wernt singin.

Hey all:

Comments on this photo would be greatly appreciated.
I guess commenting on a 2 yr old post might seem odd,
but all study material is relevant.
The horse is apparently going to be
shod tomorrow with "Smooth Walker" shoes?
Whats a smooth walker shoe? Toe Wieght? Side wieght? Heel Wieght?
The owner has been told that this is not white line disease because and I quote:

" he was checked and its not white line There is no infection and discharge
and no smell , its not hot he was never lame he has no tenderness he
didn't get a fever. the vet did put him on an antibiotic just to be safe."
I am surprised nobody Picked on this one in 2yrs, but White Line does not
discharge, nor does it smell, and will not fever a horse.
White Line Disease is fugal, white chauky, cheezy looking, and dry.
Hey Maryann, who's the hack diagnosing?

And why give it an antibiotic, when there is no lameness/tenderness.

As some have already said, all it needs is a trim.

Best I can tell by only one Photo

[KarenStandefer]

Whats a smooth walker shoe? Toe Wieght? Side wieght? Heel Wieght?

It's a synthetic shoe: http://www.smoothwalker.com/