Tennessee Walker Overreaches & Damages Pasterns

[Connie K]

I have an 8yo Tennesee Walker (16hh) who is over-reaching terribly. Like Ruffian's problem, he's not only clipping himself, he's damaging the pasterns. The left side is the worse. I am currently running him barefoot, but have tried various shoes in the past. He only does this badly in week 4 -6 of a trim. I have him trimmed every six weeks by a professional farrier who does a beautiful job on my other horse. I also use the no-turn bell boots, and vet wrap for protection. He usually doesn't cut himself open, but there is still impact damage to the pasterns. 99% of the time, this occurs when he is under saddle, very rarely when he is at liberty. My farrier and I are both open for suggestions, help is welcome!

[Rick Burten]

Initially, as soon as he starts to overreach, get him re-trimmed. At the same time, since he only does this under saddle, you will have to investigate why this occurs. Is the saddle interferring in some way? is he collected properly? Is the bit causing him a problem? Does he hollow his back when the rider is on board? Is there something about the rider's position or hands that is a contributing factor? Is his back sore? and if so, why? Is he well enough conditioned to perform while carrying the additional weight. Does he take a full reaching step with his front feet, or has he shortened down his range for some reason? If so, find the reason(s).

Since Walkers are designed to really overstride, there is a 'timing' problem occuring while under saddle. Once you discover why this is occuring, you'll be able to design a plan to (hopefully) overcome it.

Are your other horses Walkers?

Rick

[Connie K]

Initially, as soon as he starts to overreach, get him re-trimmed. At the same time, since he only does this under saddle, you will have to investigate why this occurs. Is the saddle interferring in some way? is he collected properly? Is the bit causing him a problem? Does he hollow his back when the rider is on board? Is there something about the rider's position or hands that is a contributing factor? Is his back sore? and if so, why? Is he well enough conditioned to perform while carrying the additional weight. Does he take a full reaching step with his front feet, or has he shortened down his range for some reason? If so, find the reason(s).

Since Walkers are designed to really overstride, there is a 'timing' problem occuring while under saddle. Once you discover why this is occuring, you'll be able to design a plan to (hopefully) overcome it.

Are your other horses Walkers?

Rick

Rick - Thanks for the quick reply. I have tried several different saddles on Moonie, with the same results. I'm currently riding him under a cordura western style saddle, and it appears to fit him well. I've ridden a Circle Y and English on him, with the same results. He does this under any rider. I keep him collected at all times, and ask others who ride him to do the same.

I've tried 5:1 Walker bits, egg butt snaffles, and pellums (sp?). He is athletic, and doesn't appear sore at any time. I am much more familiar with the Arab breed (my other horse), so I'm not sure how to check on this boy to see if he is taking full reaching steps on the front. Where can I find resources to illustrate?

My farrier agrees that it's a timing problem, but we are stuck on what to do next. To me, the his legs seem to be disproportionate to his back length (short coupled? - long legs, shorter back).

I have photo's of front, back, side, and close-ups of all 4 hooves, but cannot figure out how to post them to this site! User error, I'm sure. I would be more than happy to host someone from the Central Illinois region to view him, or trailer him to their location. He's a beautiful, sweet horse, and I would love to get this corrected.
Thanks,
Connie

[pltrmmr1973]

Just like rick said,the easiest thing to do is trim the horse every 4 weeks if thats what he needs.

[Gary Hill]

What kind of various shoes has this horse worn? Does he have a good fold to his knees? Might try heavy shoes in front and barefoot behind? Shod one today like that because the " Trainer" I work for really likes to get them into he bit and wants the front feet to fold up nice,and the hinds must be "Balanced" and have alittle slide to them as they go. The horse moved so much better after we did this. These TWH's really amaze me now that I work for a "Trainer" that KNOWS what he wants and can explain it! This guy is so frustrated with the regular gaited shoers and has the patience to work with me, and I keep myself open to what he wants and is tickled to death! He even said I'm not charging him enough! He does make up the differance when he writes the check, but I tell him I'm still learning these TWH's because I don't ride them but do watch him ride. They are alot differant than my Quarter Horses I work cows with! This breed I have found has lots of little conformation problems. Narrow chests, clubbie feet, narrow feet the list grows! Good Luck! Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Another option is to use an aluminum shoe that will wear in the toe easier. This will help ease breakover by the shoe wearing as you approach weeks 4,5 and 6. May have to use new shoes everytime and they do cost more. I like the St. Criox Eventers for situations like this without the steel insert in the toe. Also sqaure the and roll the hind toe and try a going barefoot or lighter shoe on the hind.

[Jeanette James, CESMT]

Connie,

Walkers are supposed to over reach. The more the better. Some like to see the hind foot tracks, you'll see them in the dirt?.. or your footing? they like to see the hind foot in the front foot tracks or beyond. The more reach from behind the better. As was stated before, you probably have a timing factor. Also, from a body worker aspect... over reaching or forging also happens or increases when the back/shoulder muscles are too tight. What happens is the shoulders do not really have full range of motion, therefore they do not move the front legs ahead far enough to get out of the way of the hind. Also, the back muscles get bunched up like an accordion. When I get done working on them with massage, they stride differently. We've seen them gain about 2" in the front stride, pick any breed on that. ... From my viewpoint being around the Walkers .. I'd say you've got one striding horse. :) There's a right way and wrong way to sit them. It's a lot more than just the bit. They also can be steeper in the butt than other horses. They use their hind ends a bit differently. Is there anyone knowledgeable about riding TW's helping you with this horse? I know they are supposed to trim the front feet differently than the back feet in toe length, etc. as that helps them gait better. Also sometimes different weight in shoes from front to back. In other words your location in the country may denote as to whether you can find someone who's familiar with how a naturally gaited horse moves. There are some videos available on TW's that you can buy that may help you with all of this. National Bridle Shop or Champion Tack will carry those and hope I didn't do a list error by giving out those business names. :confused:

Also make sure your saddle is properly placed. Too far forward and you impede the motion of the shoulder blade. Too far back, not good either. Bad saddle fit.. that can effect your gait also. Is he girthy, cinchy? Problems with ribs interfere with forward motion... Do you show this horse or trail ride?

Long legged, short back.. yep.. good combo for stride. He ought to have a good head bob.

Jeanette

[Phil Armitage]

I will share a little story about shoeing TW. We do not see many in my area, but they are around and most of the owners know how they move and gait and are very fussy about how there shod. I took on a TW owner and wow is she fussy and full of opinions. At first She was almost under the horse with me everytime I did the horse and telling me what to do as I trimmed and shod the horse. I really was not listening and just trimmed the feet for balance as I do any horse and fit the shoes as I do any horse. She was very happy with the shoeing, she had problems in the past and was happy that I took the time to listen to her because things were finaly going right. The point of my story, is there really is no difference in how you trim different breeds however there is a right and wrong way to trim. Follow good trimming guidelines for balance and propper sole thickness and healthy frogs and I bet most problems can be solved on all breeds. When a Farrier starts to deviate from a proper trim becuase someone tell them a specific breed needs to be done different, that is when the trouble starts.

[Jeanie Connors]

I agree with you wholly, Phil!

Connie, it does sound like a timing issue, but that can be helped by training and also being sure your horse's feet have a proper breakover point. Especially with his conformation and tendency to clip himself, short toes will be important for those front feet to make it off the ground before the hind feet come forward to hit them.

[Greg Thomas]

Ten bucks says the horse is cross interfering not forging. The problem is in the back feet not the front. The LF is being caught by the RR and vice-versa. Widen the back end. Some require a winged shoe. There is no way the opposite front can get "out of the way". Watch it on video in slow motion from the rear. Looking at them standing or a liberty will not help much.

There is considerable differences in shoeing TWHs according to confirmation, legs and feet. There is drastic differances from shoeing a Quarter horse. Of course there are also exceptions.

My opinion -and I'm pretty sure on this one.

Greg

[Jeanette James, CESMT]

Ten bucks says the horse is cross interfering not forging.

That makes good sense also.

Jeanette

Connie,

Copying from the TW website:

Flat Walk
This is a four cornered gait with each of the horse's feet hitting the ground separately at regular intervals. The horse will glide over the track left by the front foot with his hind foot: right rear over right front, left rear over left front. The action of the back foot slipping over the front track is known as overstride. Overstride is unique to the walking horse breed.

Running Walk
As the speed is increased, the horse over-steps the front track with the back by a distance of six to eighteen inches. The more "stride" the horse has, the better "walker" it is considered to be.

[Greg Thomas]

I see this problem more when a horse is "racking" rather than ""run walking". This is why 5 gaited Saddlebreds wear quarter boots.

When it quits tearing up the pastern it will start pulling shoes if you still don't have the hind end wide enough. A lot of so called farriers "short shoe" the front to try to "hide" the shoe heels from the back feet. This causes the long toe/underrun heel thing you see in a bunch of gaited horses but it will keep them from pulling shoes -usually. I leave at least 1/2" of shoe past the heels for support- sometimes more, relative to the toe. Some horses will benefit(have more leg action, squat and time up) with longer front feet, some will not. Same thing with the weight of the shoe. It is trial and error for me.

The biggest problem for me is them pulling shoes during turnout- playing or in mud and stuff. I just consider it part of dealing with gaited horses. That is partly why I shoe horses I have in training instead of depending on someone else. Four SB nails and small clinches on a horse that is just starting -to save hoof if(when) they pull a front shoe. If I was shoeing for outside people I might have a little different way of looking at that.

I shoed a 26 mo. old (first time)this Fri. and replaced the RF shoe Sat -after turnout- using the same nail holes. I will not change his hind end until I start riding it and can video it. He may be OK under saddle. After a month or two I will most likely figure out a way to shoe this particular horse where he doesn't have shoe problems and will hold a shoe and gait well for 6 weeks or so.

I am talking about well bred, decent confirmation(for gaited horses), healthy, sound, good footed/legged,flat shod, trail or performance horses-not therapudic cases.(By now most of ya'll probably know what I recommend for the cronic cripples. Being alive and living can be 2 entirely different things.)

Greg

[Connie K]

I agree with you wholly, Phil!

Connie, it does sound like a timing issue, but that can be helped by training and also being sure your horse's feet have a proper breakover point. Especially with his conformation and tendency to clip himself, short toes will be important for those front feet to make it off the ground before the hind feet come forward to hit them.

Jeanie - You mean short toes on front, correct?
Thanks,
Connie

[Jeanie Connors]

Yes, that's what I meant ;) . Hind toes shouldn't be excessively long, but I did mean to pay particular attention to the fronts.