Charging for time spent???

[Elizabeth81]

Hello All,
I am sure this has been addressed before...but I was wondering what your opinions are on charging for "training". Let me clarify...I am not a trainer, do not claim to be one, however today I went out to a barn to trim and shoe some horses. I have only worked for this person once before and so far I'm not getting a good feeling. She called to reschedule once and I did so within a few days...then she couldn't be at the barn, so her friend who was also getting some horses done was there to hold for me. Enter a huge yearling, that has had no work done what so ever. They just got her and she wasn't even halter broke. I had been told about her, and my client made it clear that she wasn't sure how far I was going to get, but to take my time and see what we got done. She has had this horse for a couple of weeks, and I find out she hasn't even bothered to pick up her feet!! The girl holding her for me is experienced enough and is willing to work with the horse but she would like to use a chain over the nose at least, but the owner doesn't want us to because "she doesn't want the baby to have a bad experience!!" Well, I'm of the school that you should be patient with a baby or an unschooled horse. however there must be some kind of discipline or somebody is going to get hurt!! So I spend about 25 min. getting her to pick up her feet, she is willing, but is clueless....she doesn't even know what whoa means or how to stand. So when I go to grab a foot she let's me touch it but then leaps forward. We made some progress, but her attention span was shot so I said ok we are done. I do the rest of the horses and get paid and I'm on my way. I got a phone call later from the owner, she was a little upset that I charged her for the yearling, since I didn't actually trim her. Now I did noy charge her what I would have for a trim, but I did charge something for my time. After I very nicely explained that, she said "...well next time only spend 15min. then, and if you can't get her done, well at least I don't have to pay for it!!" I am pretty patient and I will work with your horse to a certain point but it clearly was not going to happen in this instance and I think I was justified for charging for my time. I told her in future to get her horse to stand and I will have no problem getting her trimmed. So what do you guys do in this situation??
This is what I get for taking on some new clients!!! ;) It's been a while since I've had to deal with any one questioning my charges!! :) Makes me appreciate my long time customers who feel bad when their horse is even a little dirty or when they move even a little, and bring me a soda when I'm done!! ;) Thanks for any thoughts and just even for letting me vent!!!
Lori

[J.H. shoeing]

should have charged them more. It is not your responsibility to work on thier bronc. I love people like this, it really lets me vent out all of the frustration that I have built up from the Clients I don't want to have to fire.:D

keep your head up and remember Nancy Reagan. Just say NO!;)

[John Trammell]

You did right by yourself,Elizabeth,stick to your guns!!!

[Red Amor]

These type get the Sorbent treatment from Me very quickly
just as they would you if anything happened to you while working on their untrained or i'll mannered horse
Take good care of YOURSELF mate yeah ;)

[Rick Burten]

My policy is that either the owner demonstrates that the horse will stand to have its feet worked on, or they have the horse chemically restrained with Dormosedan. And, if I still can't safely get the work done, then it doesn't get done and the owner gets charged for my time at my prevailing rate.

And, since I can trim a good standing, decent footed horse in 15 minutes or so, if it takes me 30 minutes to trim one because the horse is not cooperating, then the owner pays double. And so on...

[DeniseMc]

I had been told about her, and my client made it clear that she wasn't sure how far I was going to get, but to take my time and see what we got done.

I think when you were first told about this yearling it might have been a good idea to tell the client then that you would be charging for the time even if you didn't get her trimmed, instead of waiting till after working with her and getting no results. The client then might have been more willing to put in some time preparing for your visit.


She has had this horse for a couple of weeks, and I find out she hasn't even bothered to pick up her feet!! The girl holding her for me is experienced enough and is willing to work with the horse but she would like to use a chain over the nose at least, but the owner doesn't want us to because "she doesn't want the baby to have a bad experience!!"

Well, I have to disagree with the "chain over the nose" technique as a way of teaching a yearling to stand still to pick up their feet. I know folks do use it, but I disagree with it.



Well, I'm of the school that you should be patient with a baby or an unschooled horse. however there must be some kind of discipline or somebody is going to get hurt!! So I spend about 25 min. getting her to pick up her feet, she is willing, but is clueless....she doesn't even know what whoa means or how to stand. So when I go to grab a foot

"Discipline" or inflicting pain with a chain over the nose really doesn't teach the clueless horse. You might eventually get them to stand long enough to get the job done but it isn't teaching them to relax and stand still. This yearling needs to learn the basics about yielding to pressure.

Your phrase "So when I go to grab a foot" tells me you may not be politely asking the the horse for permission to handle or pick up the foot. Of course she's going to leap forward if she thinks she's "caught". Even if this horse "knows nothing" she can still read your body language and intent.
Denise

[THamilton]

Take heed of this situation Elizabeth. Rick gave you some great ideas. Also, something I have learned over the years is that when talking to an owner, it is also like an interview. They will tell you everything you need to know about a potential situation before it arises just by what they say.

Take this experience and learn from it. Now that you have had it, you are better able to control it the next time before it happens becasue when people say, "take your time..." flags will arise and you can reply with something like,

"How much have you handled thier feet?"
"Since the horse is young, can you shopw me how you pick up thier feet? I do not want to delay any progress you have been doing to teach (fluffy)"
"Since this is a new horse and has not had its feet picked up much, before I trim it I need you to: A,B,C."

Some owners will get mad. Those are the ones that want you to train for free. The less desirables. I have heard this phrase before: Well you are the shoer. You work with their feet so it is your job to teach them to pick them up. Divorced that client soon after she heard this:

"no ma'am. I get paid to trim and or apply shoes. My training rates are higher than my per horse fees and if I pro rate them for you, I would have to charge you at least $250 just for my time teaching (it) to stand well."

Some horses will struggle with you but work through them and then notify the owner you expect better behavior the next time. If not, they will be looking for a new farrier. That blunt. You will know how much effort was put in the next time.

good Luck!
Tony

[Elizabeth81]

Hello,
Thanks for some good ideas...Rick and Tony, I think you both have the right attitude. I certainly don't want to get hurt...and I realize now of course, since the owner wasn't there I should have just told her that for me to handle her yearling she needed to be there. That way I could've went over things for her to work on. Which is my policy to begin with, but I got there and she was supposed to be there and wasn't etc.... I sort of thought the horse would actually be better with the handler who was there, since she has quite a bit more experience then the owner. I know better!! :o
Hello Denise,
I think you are right, I should have made it clear that she would be charged for time spent....I thought it was implied in our conversation, but I should have made sure she understood that my time is not free. As far as me using the word grab, I just used the first word that I thought of. Here is what I do with a horse that is new to me and/or new to the process; Introduce myself give her a little rub down, see if she's going move away from me, if she seems frightened, if that's the case I will usually keep talking to her in a low voice see if I can touch her feet and so and so forth....doesn't usually take very long and usually saves me some headaches. Then I will run my hand down her leg and ask her for it. This particular horse would let me touch her all over and would give me all four feet for about 1 sec. then she thought it was time to move. The longer I tried to hold on to her foot the more irritated she became, and then she would leap forward. Not really her fault...she just has no idea what I wanted her to do. So we worked on me picking up her feet and I made some progress ( that will only do any good if the owner of course does the same thing on a regular basis!! Which I did explain.) So you are right that if I did just come at her and start grabbing that certainly could be my problem!! ;) But I just didn't make myself clear. She seems to be a pretty sensible horse, but she has just been allowed to do what ever for way too long.
As far as using a chain or rope etc.. I have do disagree with you... My point was this horse has no respect. My method of teaching a horse respect is handling them from birth, teaching them all the basics from day one, when not only are they much smaller, but they are usually very willing. However in this case she is over a year and 900lb and has no respect what so ever for people, in cases like this I sometimes will use pressure over the nose. Depending on the horse all it might take is a rope, sometimes it means a chain just sitting on their nose, sometimes it's just the chain hooked to the halter to make some noise...sometimes to remind a horse who is in charge it is a good shank. This horse has not been taught respect, until that is established in my opinion, we can't really start on the other basics. Now once she is taught we are to be respected then I don't think that a chain will necessarily be used to teach her to stand for her feet to be handled. I realize that she is young and clueless, I also realize that she can hurt me with out even trying. Now that is just my opinion, the owner can train her however she wants to, but the bigger this horse gets the harder it's going to be. I see too many owners talking to their horse like it's a dog and saying something like "Oh please be good, or Honey stop jerking on her like that or Biting is not nice!!" :rolleyes: It's been awhile since I've heard that particular one, but I did turn around and told the owner if she did bite me it WAS extra!! :D I think this horse should ideally be sent to a good trainer, but I don't think that is going to happen!! In the mean time we'll just have to see what kind of handling she gets in the next few weeks and that will decide if I go back!!Thanks for your input,
Lori

[Rick Burten]

Something else to remember before you start training someone else's horse, especially if you are using some form of restraint. If something goes wrong and the horse gets hurt, you are going to be held accountable and liable. If on the other hand something goes wrong and you get hurt, more than likely you'll have no legal recourse because, even if its not true, the owner will swear that s/he told you about the horse and you, as a professional, chose to work on the horse.

Which brings me to the one word I consider to be the most important word in the entire vocabulary of any farrier or other professional hoof care provider. and that word is



NO!!!

[vthorseshoe]

Rick used the word NO
and in doing so he was emphasising the fact that you need to be able to evaluate the situation from different angles and be honest with your own ability to handle such an animal.

Learning to school horses is a life time venture.

Take Ricks advice next time and just say NO.

Schooling any horse without the owner there is a huge NO NO !!

[Phil Armitage]

Every body at once, one, two, three...........


NO!!!!!!!!!!

Practice in front of the mirror every morning before you head out for the day.

[CannHorseshoeing]

NO!

There I said it!!!!!

It is harder to do at times then one might think....but a very good lesson to be learned!

Thanks for the wise words

[QuarterAranch]

I have had a few clients like that but the best one was a lady around 35 who had a blown up barrel horse... an hour later after this horse tried striking at me, rearing up, and tryin to lay on me, i got the horse comfortable on three legs and when I gave the lady the bill she began to complain that I did not pull the feet forward and I explained to her that the horse needs some good experiences and i did not have the time to fight for another hour, and if she was truly worried about it I would not charge her for the trim if she herself pulled the feet forward and finished them... Wrote me out the check for an extra 50 bucks and has never whined since.

[Tamara in TN]

And, since I can trim a good standing, decent footed horse in 15 minutes or so, if it takes me 30 minutes to trim one because the horse is not cooperating, then the owner pays double. And so on...

hi Rick...

dunno if a non farrier is allowed to pipe in here ??? but as an owner of 20 plus...with lots of babies and stallions and others in the "easily offended" segment of the equine population:D my policy is that as the owner, I gotta "get their heart right" long before my farrier get there...


there does however, come that place and time when they have never had anyone but me do anything to their feet (big lack of non hay making hired help around here) and when that moment comes, I will know in just a few seconds if we are making progress for the better...for the better of all three of us actually ;)

if that curled up lip spreads upwards across his eye and to his ear, it's my job to call the game before it hits his feet...

sometimes I pay him just for picking up all four and holding them...maybe not even running a rasp, because at that point that is what the horse needs and it is what I need to show the horse he won't die and the farrier needs paid for being there and the farrier wants a more "grown up" patient the next time...

and he might wander off and make some real "new iron all round "money on another tied nearby and come back again to the baby doing kinda "farrier microbursts"...and he's wonderful about that...and I always pay what he asks....

more horse owners NEED TO KNOW THAT....I yelled that for any of you up and coming,worried about losing business farriers out there....the owner who does not understand that it is THEIR business to see to the needs of all involved will NOT be someone you want to keep on your books....

as they care more about Poopie-kins than you getting hurt...:mad:

best
Tamara in TN

[Gary Hill]

Tamara in TN, I wish you were Tamara in TEXAS! You are an endangered species, an intelligent owner!:D

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara in TN, I wish you were Tamara in TEXAS! You are an endangered species, an intelligent owner!:D

I'd like to stop in and see Mr Tom one day...:) and my farrier is my friend...no horse I have is worth hurting him

best

Tamara in TN

[caballus]

If you're not a trainer then ... NO!

I also teach horses as well as tend to hooves. So, today, I trimmed the hooves of a very opinionated 2 year old and charged my training rate as I did more "training" than trimming. Until the horse can stand, quietly, for a regular trimming session I will continue to utilize the trim time as training time and charge accordingly.

--Gwen

[Mike Jacobs]

I've trained horses in the past, paid and unpaided, anymore I'm upfront with the owner; I do not do unschooled horses, if they insist it is $100.00 for the first hour and $25.00 for each hour after plus trim fee. I have got clients this way.

[Steel N Sole]

for me it all depends on the owner of the horse(s). Just recently I did 3 horses that had barely any handling maybe had their feet picked up 6 times at the most. They got their first trim and then 6 weeks later I went back and put on their first pair of front shoes. Took me less time to do them than it does some of the older horses that have been getting shoes for awhile.
Right now I have one on my books that I am working with as she has had some very bad experiences with farriers and she will try to trample, rear, paw, pull back, etc. I charge accordingly but the deal was made up front. Everything was discussed prior ie.If the horse hurts itself, etc. On a good day it takes me 45mins to shoe this mare. On a bad day it takes almost 1hour15mins. She only gets fronts but most of the time is her bebopin' everywhere and me trying to hang on and hammer a nail in at the same time.

[ohiobred]

i understand the no's, but in certain situations would that cause a or some rumors to start.(example) mike wasn't a very good farriers he couldn't even get my yarling done! and for some one like me i need all the work i can get! i use hobbles in some situations and i charge depend how long it takes before they give in. what about a flat rate for training?

[THamilton]

Ohiobred,

Since the restrant is yours and you used it, then you have now assumed liability for the condition of the horse until the horse has had the restraint removed and is out of your care. Do you like buying $10,000 futurity weanlings? :eek:

A flat rate is an ok idea, but I price way high because I value my time and od nto want to do animals that re going to get me hurt. If I were at home where I could do it like it should be done, that is different.

Tony

[Rick Burten]

Since the restrant is yours and you used it, then you have now assumed liability for the condition of the horse until the horse has had the restraint removed and is out of your care.

It goes further than that. From the moment a farrier first lays hands on the horse or any equipment attached to the horse such as a halter and/or a lead rope, that horse is presumed to be in the care, custody and control of the farrier.

disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, don't play one on radio or tv, and haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn in quite some time. The information I provided was given to me by and attorney and an insurance agent.

Perhaps Ron Alders can offer some insights for us?

[Dave Whitaker]

It goes further than that. From the moment a farrier first lays hands on the horse or any equipment attached to the horse such as a halter and/or a lead rope, that horse is presumed to be in the care, custody and control of the farrier.



I do carry "care, custody, and control" insurance , but the above statement is the very reason that I require an owner/handler/agent to be present and handle the horse. I don't catch horses, halter them, remove or return them to their stalls/paddocks, etc. ( In return I reqiure that no owner trim/shoe their own horse ;) ). I think it's just good business and has the added benefit of making the owner have a vested intrest in their horse's behavior.

Dave

[DoubleCFarrierService]

I charge by the hour on horses that are untrained. I will tell this to the person up front. I am not a trainer, but I will work with a horse that is young and lacks the training. I will not however work on a horse that will try and kill me. Also if I trim the horse on a regular basis and there is no improvement I will suggest that the owner find a trainer who does this full time. For me it also depends on the customers attitude and how their other animals act. If they have 10 horses and only one or two act up then I am more willing to work with them. Where if it is the other way around, and they don't seem to care or be helping the problems then I will suggest that they find another farrier, or be willing to pay for my time. It is a business like any other, and we as farriers have to pay our bills and make a living too.

[Dan Puckett]

I decided a long time before even visiting schools that a $30 trim (or even a $100 shoeing) wasnt worth $50K+ of hospital bills if I get badly hurt tyring to work on an untrained imbecile. To say nothing of what happens if I get disabled. I really put this to the test the weekend after I got back from school.

I have a friend who has some pasture ornaments that I trim for free (he helped raise me, and he paid my bail the one time I was in jail, so I figure I'll take care of his horses- they are all good), and he also leases some pasture to a neighbor woman, with 2 yearlings. I got half of one horse of hers trimmed, and worked with the other one a little. Couldnt even pick up his feet. Spent a total of 45min. My trim takes about 30min now (still havent finished school), so I charged her for one trim. She didnt bat an eye, and wrote out the (good) check. I gave her some pointers on working with her horses, and we'll see how it goes next time. Went down the road to another friend's farm (he isnt that good of a friend, so he pays full price :D), and the neighbor came over when I was doing his horses. Got done with my friend's horses about 4pm, and went to work on the neighbor's. My friend had mentioned that the neighbor's horses hadnt been worked with, but she'd help me if I wanted. We tried, they didnt stand for more than about 25seconds. With the combination of 35deg, spiting rain, windy, and running out of daylight, I just said "NO, I'm not messing with these horses today. I am a shoer (as far as the owner is concerned, anyway), not a trainer. My training rate is $100/hr, or any part thereof." I figure here in the cheapskate capital of the world, I wont have too many $100 hours.

AFter reading this thread, I wont do any more training. I realize all horses (and people) have bad days, I can overlook that. But I am not going to train an untrained horse. FIrst, I dont think I'm really qualified to train horses. Second, it's not in my job description.

Dan

[beslagsmed]

Yea, I don't blame you. I tell my customers I am a farrier not a trainer. Didn't come to train your horse. Horses cost 2 things - time and money. If you don't have the time or you don't have the money, then don't have the horse.

[burnt_umber]

I'm a carpenter for a living (and an aspiring farrier.) What you charged for the yearling, we call a PITA (pain in the ***) fee in my business. This when a customer asks us to do something, we do it and do it efficiently and well, and then they decide they want it done a slightly different way, or "forgot" to mention some special detail that they want done that would've been easier to do at an earlier stage of the project (like, for instance - "Oh, I wanted an outlet on that wall you just finished drywalling, taping, and sanding to a pristine finish!")

This is why our quotes aren't guaranteed. For instance, if we were going to throw in for free the extra hardware or screws used that we happened to have on hand, now we're going to charge for it- on TOP of the extra time. We don't tell the customer the reasons specifically, but they usually notice the job costs a little bit more than the estimate and they rarely question it. Deep down, they know why.

PITA fees are a reality of any trade business and customers have learn to deal with it. If they want to avoid a PITA fee, they need to avoid being a pain in the ***! ;)

Also, I completely agree with the sentiment on this thread - my motto is "I trim horses, I don't train them." It's definitely the job of the owner to train the horse for trims. If they can't be bothered to pick up their horse's feet once every other day (which is pretty much all it takes) then they will have to deal with unhappy farriers and PITA fees!

[Northern Ohio Shoer]

I feel that there is two ends of this spectrum and I fall in the middle. At one end we have the farrier who will work on anything for $ and get the job done no matter how it turns out. On the other hand we have farriers that want a horse druged if it tugs a couple of times, these farriers also seem to be the ones that will break a rasp over a yearling and then charge the client for the rasp! I feel that we should be accomplished horseman before we become farriers. I have never turned a horse away, perhaps may I should have in a couple of cases. Having said that I will never get under a horse that dosen't stand pretty still: weanling, yearling, & etc. I have several different forms of training that I use on a horse to teach him to stand still. I agree that we are liable when we take control and restrain these horses. But the bottom line is that these horses that are acting malacious or even just morbidly scard are only worth a few pennies. You don't really see 20-30,000 dollar futurity yearlings, two-year olds that act up, I have come across a couple. I do charge dearly for the extra training fee but I also make sure that I have enough time to get the task done. I will pass on a horse until next time if I don't have time to train it. It is ignorant to say that "we don't train horses we shoe them" because every time we pick up a foot we are training them no matter the horse!

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I feel that there is two ends of this spectrum and I fall in the middle. At one end we have the farrier who will work on anything for $ and get the job done no matter how it turns out. On the other hand we have farriers that want a horse druged if it tugs a couple of times, these farriers also seem to be the ones that will break a rasp over a yearling and then charge the client for the rasp! I feel that we should be accomplished horseman before we become farriers. I have never turned a horse away, perhaps may I should have in a couple of cases. Having said that I will never get under a horse that dosen't stand pretty still: weanling, yearling, & etc. I have several different forms of training that I use on a horse to teach him to stand still. I agree that we are liable when we take control and restrain these horses. But the bottom line is that these horses that are acting malacious or even just morbidly scard are only worth a few pennies. You don't really see 20-30,000 dollar futurity yearlings, two-year olds that act up, I have come across a couple. I do charge dearly for the extra training fee but I also make sure that I have enough time to get the task done. I will pass on a horse until next time if I don't have time to train it. It is ignorant to say that "we don't train horses we shoe them" because every time we pick up a foot we are training them no matter the horse!

Whenever you interact with a horse you need to be aware of it's behaviour and respond appropriately and as a farrier you should indeed know how to do that and have a huge degree of "horse sense".

However that isn't training.

I'd say that training is the process of skillfully and methodologically applying new activities in order to lead to a behaviour. It's the acquisition of knowledge by skilled conditioning.

Every farrier I've ever personally known has a lot of horse sense. They know how to react and approach and handle horses confidently and well. They know how to read their body language and it's obvious that they've acquired that skill through conditioning experience.

However though they have horse sense, I'd not say they were trainers by any means. Of the farriers I know, I'd say that less than 20% are what I call also capable "horse trainers". Those are the ones that tend to be steeped in all things equestrian and often have trained and competed horses themselves as well as working as a farrier.

I'd also say that the owner is responsible for the training NOT the farrier..... in any circumstances! Whether they do it themselves or pay a professional to do it is irrelevent and should be of no interest to the farrier. As far as the farrier is concerned the horse should behave if its having it's feet done.

If the owner or the person they've paid to manage the horse on their behalf can't lift the horses feet and get under it, then I'm the view that the farrier would be mad to!

I am a trainer and do get horses in that have been spoilt or are totally untrained and to such an extent that it would be dangerous and foolhardy for the farrier to attend to them. Basically, unless their foot care is critical because it's affecting their well being and health for the medium term, then it's left until they've been trained and got some confidence and will behave. If it's vital that their feet are done then they're drugged.

I work on the principle that I wouldn't expect my farrier to get under any horse that I couldn't do myself and really easily without any risk of the horse being totally unpredictable.

[oatey_hocking]

Understanding what I am doing with I take a horses into my hands for training. I have the owner sign a contract which may or may not cover all my arms and legs on everything it covers all the p's and q's and allows for more question and answer type info before starting, all customers that call with horses that need worked with are alloted the time and told a price price upfront, however if I show up and the horse is not what I am told the price for training goes up. I find that charging a simple to break down fee for the per min charge so if it takes 10 90 or 2 mins I can charge that price so no one yet has dissagreed about.

If I where not interested in the training then I would set a very high price, and if by some chance someone agreed then have at it.


I state that if I get hurt then its my falt, and also have on the contract that the best training site is flat and soft if this is not provided I cannot provide the service. Its not fair to try and teach a horse to stand on a muddy hill side its working against things he nor I want to work against.


Thanks,
Jarred

[Buttermaker]

I learned the art of saying NO when I was very new to the trade. I was given the chance to apprentice under a very good farrier. One of his accounts was a reining cow horse ranch. The man that owned the ranch agreed to let me work on his brood mares when they needed to be "shortened".

That translated to once a year at breeding time. Needless to say they were less than stellar examples of how to stand. One such breeding season he began to bring the mares in and I began to work through them. All was going well till I came to a BIG yellow mare with a little bit of a chip on her shoulder. I began to work on her and she did.......okay. Then I get to the last foot, and she began to show her true colors. She started to kick at me, the more I tried to be gentle and slow the more she had a fit. Ole Pete walks through door and sees what a brat his horse is being and says "Hang on I will hold her she'll stand better." So I wait. Being the good little farrier in training I do what I'm told. Had I known what was to follow I would have just knocked off the rough edges and said she's good!

Pete gets back into the barn and unties the yella horse and I again attempt to convince her to give me her foot. Her little fit begins to evolve into what my aunt refers to as a ten acre fit! Ole Yella rears and bucks. She spins and bites. All the while I am trying desperately to keep from getting sucked into this cyclone that has developed in the barn. I catch a glimpse of Pete through the dusty haze that has been stirred up in the barn. The sight I behold is forever burned into my mind. Pete is being yanked up off the ground by this mare's head. Only because he is too doggone stubborn to let go of the ear he has between his clinched jaws. As I keep a safe distance between me, Pete, and the yellow cyclone of fury, I see the mare begin to weaken. As she does she throws herself to the ground. In one very fluid motion, that could only be perfected after years of doing this exact thing. He throws the 12' leap rope around the last back foot of this behemoth monster and ties it to her nose. Pete looks up at me from the ground and says through clenched teeth, and around the wadded up ear of this frothing, heaving pile of quivering horse flesh, "You gunna git down here and trim up this foot or jus' stand there looking at me with yer mouth hanging open?!"

So being the naive young man I was I jumped in and trimmed up that yella beast from H-E-L-L! As I was finishing up my mentor comes walking in and just about doubles over laughing. He takes one look at me wringing wet with sweat, the horse hog tied on the floor, and ole Pete chewing on her ear and says "Now you know why I won't do those mares for him anymore!"

I learned that day that I was no longer willing to trim these beast from the bowels of the earth for the mere $5 he was paying me! So he agreed to pay me $10, that's when I used that famous word for the first time. NO!! "I'm done, I love working on your horses, but I'm not touching those demons for that kind of money anymore" He laughed and told me he wondered how long I would keep doing them before you got smart!

[SlowShoe]

Buttermaker,

That was a good read. Thanks for that. :)

[Smithing21]

for situations like this I have one very stringent rule that I follow for myself....very old man (a mechanic at an auto dealership) told me a very long time ago.

His exact words: "Charge'em till ya like'em and they's some that just can't make it....those ya charge'em twice more"

;):D

just my 2 cents worth...lol

[Ray K. Miller, Jr.]

Excellent read.

Always remember "Time is Money"

If the owner wanted me to train their horse, it came with a cost figure and insturction on how the owner needed to follow through.