Fay - update

[red_hush21]

Hello all,

For the ones that feel my posts are bothering you, please move on to the next thread. If you feel you are compelled to PM me with motherly advice, keep it to yourself. If you wish to criticize my actions, unless you are a farrier and your opinions are based on evidence, please don't bother.

I would like to THANK everyone who has helped me. * Virtual Hugs *
I'll post pictures as soon as i find my USB cable.

This farrier was reffered to me by richard Simard who is a famous trainer/driver in the horse racing circle in NA. He told me about this great horse he had who suffered a P3 fracture and this farrier fixed him up really well, he raced 2 days after and won 25K in 57'.

Pulled the shoes, farrier's face turned white and he said '' she's perforated ''

Indeed, we see the tip of P3 imprint in the sole.
It's not out yet but it would be if her heels were left as is and her foot to '' heal naturally '' :eek:

No need for hoof testers, he moved the sole with his bare hands.

59 deg. at both heels. I forgot the toes but it's very steep.

So he rebalanced her foot a little, took about 2 deg. off the heels on each foot. He said he can't take more out otherwise she would bleed, then she would have no where to put her weight on. I asked about hoof rebuilding, he said he could do it if i wanted to but he said i would pay for nothing.
He wants me to put iodine everyday. That is not so good with a closed pad with impression material and he said iodine & putty dont match well.

Told me she needs 4' of hoof for her size, said most of our local farriers trim VERY short and upright. She needs more toes, less heel, more sole.

So he put a half round size 4, a green mushy pad that is open at the middle and has a built in frog support, ( called impact reducer ? ) so i can treat with iodine and get harder soles. He set the shoe over the toe and fuller on the sides, 3 small nails on each sides. I'm not sure what they were.

He said the key is a regular trim of the heels. He will come back every 2 weeks until we have a better balance and more foot.
She has a good hoofwall and lots of nailing space. With that regiment, i should get my hrose back in 8weeks.

She stood much better with that, no more foot hopping and cantered around a bit in the arena. She is still sore, that will take time for sure but P3 being more protected, that will help !

He said to ride her midly as well.

I'll post pictures later.

[Horsemaid]

I am so glad you got an expert farrier out there to take care of your horse. I am truly sorry it's worse than what you expected, but at least now you are on the right path to getting your horse sound. I have spent many sleepless nights worrying about my horse in the past, I know this has been tough for you.
This is a great illustration of how important it is for the horse owner to be knowledgeable about hoof care, to know when a farrier is doing a good job or not, and when to call in a vet. And, to know what advice to take and what to disregard (like leaving your horse lame so it can "naturally" get worse) :eek:
Hang in there, I'm sure everyone will want to see photos.

[THamilton]

I am concerned here with what is happening with your horse. First I would get a Vet involved and get an MRI or a Radiograph at the least. Preferrable a digital one - which has the value of shading and rotating the views.

Aside from that, if P3 is about to come throught he foot, changing angles every two weeks would be the least of my concerns- at this point. Not to say that I would not trim what I could to balance her and get to solid horn material.

I would place more value on stabilizing P3 and protecting the sole with something more ridgid. Something that will not place ANY pressure or that has the chance of placing ANY pressure on the sole. An example of this is a 3/16" thick Castle Plastics pad riveted to the shoe. If there is not enough clearance and contact with the sole should occur, I would use a foot rebuilding product to give myself the needed clearance. With a pour in pad or any other non-ridgid pad there is the chance that pressure can be displaced upwards into the sole.

I could be mistaken and not understanding what your post is saying, but after reading it again, I now think that what your farrier might be seeing is sole bruising the shape of the coffin bone ( a cresent shape redness in the sole about 1" in front of the tip fo the live frog.) If this is the case, thent he prognosis is better.

I still would protect the sole.

Pictures with the initial post would be a bigger benefit for the future .

Good Luck,
Tony

[Auventera]

"Perforated" means a tear, hole, separation, gap, rip, etc. If the farrier is seeing an "imprint" of P3 on the sole, and it isn't "out yet" but it will be soon, how is this perforated? Just curious so I understand your post better. Did he see bruising on the sole from the bone pressing on the circumflex artery, or did he actually see THE BONE?

Horses with thin soles can get a nice bruise or imprint of P3 on the sole. It doesn't necessarily mean the bone is about to pop out into the outside world, but it means there is pressure causing rupture of vessels and the sole is thin and needing protection and stimulation for growth.

GOOD digital radiographs will show you exactly how much sole depth you have before P3 is in the environment. The only xrays I remember that you posted were too poor to be able to tell anything on. Do you have updated ones? Again, I'm speaking as a horse owner who has "been there, done that" with my dressage horse.

Also I agree you need to have a vet on this case.

I'm glad your mare is doing better, that's the important thing.

[EDeSocio]

Well sounds good.. did he not think a reverse wedge would benefit? I would say that if he didn't think it would benefit then he knows best since the hoof was in his hands and not mine from 2598 miles away...
But, none the less, prognosis is better in 8 weeks sounds like positive prognosis!

[Rick Burten]

Doesn't sound as though she's through the bottom/preforated.

I think he is on the right track with what he is doing and I hope he has a "Plan B" in mind, just in case...

Eric,

I think a reverse wedge at this time would be contra-indicated. Between lowering the heels and then the addition of a reverse wedge, enough mechanical strain can be placed on the DFT, that it could actually pull p3 the rest of the way down and out.

Also, does it not concern you just a bit that a horse with a fractured coffin bone was shod and able to race two days later? (I know this is a bit off topic, but it was brought up by the OP.

[Auventera]

Rick - I wanted to bring that up too but was afraid I'd be skinned and roasted for implying it's wrong to patch up a broken coffin bone with a shoe and then race the horse. You know me, and this is what I constantly harp on - people NEVER want to give horses time to recuperate and heal in their feet. If it's a tendon, a muscle, or an eyeball, oh yeah, they've got alllllll the time in the world. But if it's hooves, they want to be back in the ring riding tomorrow, or competing.

[Appassionato]

Is it possible the horse "perforated" because of blowing an abcess? I always thought of perforations to be from sinking and such too until I saw that sole could be "open" yet the bone didn't move (IOW no sinking). Just a thought.

I'm sorry about the bad/frightening news about your horse and I hope you've finally gotten her on the right track.

[red_hush21]

I did get my vet to look at her ! You people are funny thinking i did'nt. Rads were taken a month ago.

My english traduction for what he said is probably off... what he said in french is '' elle est défoncée '' That means her foot collapsed in proper terms but it's a slang word too for saying that something is crushed, trashed or destroyed. Yes, we see the imprint of P3 but it's not perforated. I know that.
If it was, she'd be at the hospital.
Wrong choice of words sorry !

Eric, i did explain what i did with your help and he agreed to your theory.
But, putting reverse wedge pads would increase pressure on her toes and he said he if affraid she might stumble, bow a tendon & this would alter her gait and she would need to make an extra effort in picking up that foot over so this could be iffy. He said he'd rather slowly lower her heels meanwhile her toe, wall and sole grows. Made sense to me.

He said BO should not be set as per a NB mindset, i showed the PLR's i have to him, the size 2 was not long enough and he said the more we back up her BO, the more we enhance her short toes. Right now, as per the Xrays, we have a shoved up pastern from high heels and short toes, thin sole and a very small frog. Also have underrun heels and a dished hoofwall. It's not because she is contracted with her DF tendon but from a mechanical * man made * mess. He said if we set BO back on this foot right now, we only encourage the foot to grow more upwards and in heels. Again, made sense to me.

He said once her foot is back on track, in a normal length and sole depth, then we could try a PLR size 3. He also has Eponas, he said that would be a cood option but he said a flexible shoe would not be the best thing in soft fotting, and would not help to stabilize her feet. Again, made sense to me.
Same theory as yours Eric. Yes, you can celebrate, you were right. And i am sure many others were too.

As for the sole being cleared, Tony you are 100% right.
And that is what the pad she has on does. Actually, she had a similar pad on before than the one you suggested but thrush kicked in badly and they had to be cut into a rimpad. This pad is open so i can soak that foot with iodine.
I can see through the front of the pad, the sole is not in contact. only the frog is and under the hoofwall. My farrier used that pad specifically for this and he showed it to me. It's the Impak absorber and it's green, really mushy and thick.

Here are pictures. I guess now only time will tell... !

[EDeSocio]

Bone is pretty static, in that it isn't really sinking or rotating, but the hoof is being rotated around the bone... High heels are pushing the bone down, toes flaring out are pulling away from the bone, but the hoof capsule rotates around the bone... That is my opinion... Just a way of looking at what is going on.

[red_hush21]

Doesn't sound as though she's through the bottom/preforated.

I think he is on the right track with what he is doing and I hope he has a "Plan B" in mind, just in case...

Eric,

I think a reverse wedge at this time would be contra-indicated. Between lowering the heels and then the addition of a reverse wedge, enough mechanical strain can be placed on the DFT, that it could actually pull p3 the rest of the way down and out.

Also, does it not concern you just a bit that a horse with a fractured coffin bone was shod and able to race two days later? (I know this is a bit off topic, but it was brought up by the OP.


Rick, we were replying the same thing at the same time... cross your fingers and make a wish ! ( i vote for world peace and better schools in the Irak countries ... you ? )

[red_hush21]

Bone is pretty static, in that it isn't really sinking or rotating, but the hoof is being rotated around the bone... High heels are pushing the bone down, toes flaring out are pulling away from the bone, but the hoof capsule rotates around the bone... That is my opinion... Just a way of looking at what is going on.

Yes you are right. He did'nt deny that option but he wants me to ride her and felt it was better for my safety not to. If she was only turned out in a small pen of stall confined, he said yes, bright idea.

[red_hush21]

[QUOTE=
Also, does it not concern you just a bit that a horse with a fractured coffin bone was shod and able to race two days later? (I know this is a bit off topic, but it was brought up by the OP.[/QUOTE]

For 25K worth and a horse still sound today, not really.

[Appassionato]

I did get my vet to look at her ! You people are funny thinking i did'nt. Rads were taken a month ago.

I think what everyone means is new rads might be necessary...things may have changed from a month ago.

My english traduction for what he said is probably off... what he said in french is '' elle est défoncée '' That means her foot collapsed in proper terms but it's a slang word too for saying that something is crushed, trashed or destroyed. Yes, we see the imprint of P3 but it's not perforated. I know that.
If it was, she'd be at the hospital.
Wrong choice of words sorry !

I'm sorry, maybe it's paranoia, but did he mean "sinking"? I hope not.

[EDeSocio]

Hey, sounds great Adele! I am glad you have faith in him and he sounds like he has the abilities and knowledge that we needed.
Looking forward to the pics...

[EDeSocio]

Rick, I wouldn't blindly put the reverse wedges on.. I would trim the heels and walk the horse, then if she is not completely better I would tape the wedges on and walk her.. see if she were better or not...
Who really knows, in reality if the wedges would be contradictory? They might be, the horse would prove it, they might not be.. the horse would prove it.. We can say logically this or that will happen but sometimes logic doesn't mean it will work or won't work.. look at the helicopter.. Logically it should not fly.. but does that mean they are grounded?

[red_hush21]

Yes, finally. But i don't think i would be so well educated now if it was not for you guys.

No skinkin, no active founder, just bad trimming. I will get new rads in a month. I did call my vet and explained everything to him, he said is she is OK enough to walk and trot, not exhibiting signs of severe inflamation ( digital pulse, founder like strain and fever among other Sx. ) he said to wait.

All this Aventura is stuff i know. I am not a beginner in the horsey world.

As for the racehorse, understand that as a farrier , if an horse owner/trainer tells you '' fix him so he can run well and be safe '' well, you do it. It's not something i agree with but considering the context and the money involved, i assume my farrier was confident it would not further damage the horse or he would have said so. If the owners say to do it anyways, it's their choice.
I would like to remind you that the horse did win and made them 25K. And he is still alive and well.

[EDeSocio]

Ah, didn't see the pics the first time.. now I see.. looks good.. I like those pads.. where to get them now... hmm.. and the half rounds... interesting.. where to get the barstock...

[red_hush21]

And he just called me to ask how my horse was and if i had ridden her a bit.
He said to ride her midly but to do so often. I did'nt have time but she was turned out. I'll go tonight and check on her. I forgot my to do standing wraps.

[EDeSocio]

Good guy to follow up... He did a good clean job, professionally follows up and is a credit to his profession!

[red_hush21]

And, to know what advice to take and what to disregard (like leaving your horse lame so it can "naturally" get worse) :eek:

Thank you !

[red_hush21]

Good guy to follow up... He did a good clean job, professionally follows up and is a credit to his profession!

Yeah well, he's very nice.
And the racetrack is being closed down, he's loosing a huge part of his buisness. I told him i know a lot of people in the '' saddle horses '' world in Montreal ( selling saddles and giving lessons) and i told him if he can fix my mare, i would recommend him to everyone i know. That's the best marketing you can have.

[OldLineStateForge]

I did get my vet to look at her ! You people are funny thinking i did'nt. Rads were taken a month ago.

My english traduction for what he said is probably off... what he said in french is '' elle est défoncée '' That means her foot collapsed in proper terms but it's a slang word too for saying that something is crushed, trashed or destroyed. Yes, we see the imprint of P3 but it's not perforated. I know that.
If it was, she'd be at the hospital.
Wrong choice of words sorry !

Eric, i did explain what i did with your help and he agreed to your theory.
But, putting reverse wedge pads would increase pressure on her toes and he said he if affraid she might stumble, bow a tendon & this would alter her gait and she would need to make an extra effort in picking up that foot over so this could be iffy. He said he'd rather slowly lower her heels meanwhile her toe, wall and sole grows. Made sense to me.

He said BO should not be set as per a NB mindset, i showed the PLR's i have to him, the size 2 was not long enough and he said the more we back up her BO, the more we enhance her short toes. Right now, as per the Xrays, we have a shoved up pastern from high heels and short toes, thin sole and a very small frog. Also have underrun heels and a dished hoofwall. It's not because she is contracted with her DF tendon but from a mechanical * man made * mess. He said if we set BO back on this foot right now, we only encourage the foot to grow more upwards and in heels. Again, made sense to me.

He said once her foot is back on track, in a normal length and sole depth, then we could try a PLR size 3. He also has Eponas, he said that would be a cood option but he said a flexible shoe would not be the best thing in soft fotting, and would not help to stabilize her feet. Again, made sense to me.
Same theory as yours Eric. Yes, you can celebrate, you were right. And i am sure many others were too.

As for the sole being cleared, Tony you are 100% right.
And that is what the pad she has on does. Actually, she had a similar pad on before than the one you suggested but thrush kicked in badly and they had to be cut into a rimpad. This pad is open so i can soak that foot with iodine.
I can see through the front of the pad, the sole is not in contact. only the frog is and under the hoofwall. My farrier used that pad specifically for this and he showed it to me. It's the Impak absorber and it's green, really mushy and thick.

Here are pictures. I guess now only time will tell... !

Glad to hear things are coming around.Seems this is pretty much the same protocal I originally suggested in the thread " hoof reconstruction materials" except the need to support the caudal portion is evident with the P3 issues ( it outwighs the exostosis) Good consistent work will take you a long way now. FYI if your farrier thinks she has had a recent laminitic event solar abscessing will show up around 45 - 50 days.

[red_hush21]

Yes i know ! You did suggest exaclty that and i though about it too when he suggested this. My big issue was to find someone to actually do it, and do it well. :D

[red_hush21]

Am i allowed to disclose names ?

[Gary Hill]

I would ask your Farrier first, he/she might not want it out there? Glad your horse is better, hopefully it is turning a corner? :)

[red_hush21]

There is no sinking. There is no '' active '' conditions in her feet except what we see. We checked it all, it's all mechanics.
No founder, no abcess(that we can tell right now). Very thin soles, high, underrun heels, shot toes = shoved up bone colum and horse standing on the tip of P3.

[red_hush21]

I would ask your Farrier first, he/she might not want it out there? Glad your horse is better, hopefully it is turning a corner? :)

Good point. I'm so happy right now i wish i could tell you who he is.
Turning... ? Lol.. i have not seen her turn in such a long time... we used to back up and spin instead . Thank god my horse can manoever into anything.

[red_hush21]

comparade...

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

I actually would love to see Eric's sidebone shoe on this horse. I'm not sure if he travels up that far but I'm sure he has a price.

[red_hush21]

Eric, please show me this sidebone shoe !

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

Oh man wait until you see it, it's awsome, I could never hand make a shoe this nice.

Whats up with the corny youtube video?

[red_hush21]

There i changed it - now it's Fay and I.

[EDeSocio]

Not sure if she is a candidate of this shoe.. but it does help a lot of horses with and without sidebone...
rolled from medial toe quarter to lateral heel and plain stamped... Fullered and wedged on medial branch.
First one, on the left is out of concave barstock, the right side are shoes that came off of horses I had nailed on... left came off a Gypsy cob, Right is a side bone shoe off an appaloosa with terrible sidebone, and then the slight wedged shoe with rocker toe at the side view...

[red_hush21]

Wow,,,, you are good with the forge.

[red_hush21]

Awww,,,,, it was deleted. :rolleyes:

Well, i called the barn ( forgot to do standing wraps ) and kiddo said she was standing even, actually putting all her weight in the front. Kiddo said she stood a bit under her, she's probably releiving her back and hinds now.
She said her legs were a little bit swollen, tendons on the black foot being a bit warm ( most likely due to lowering her 60deg high heels )
She did wraps for me and walked her in the barn, she said she was walking fine and showed no evident signs of pain.

FIOU !

[Just passin through~]

Awww,,,,, it was deleted. :rolleyes:

Well, i called the barn ( forgot to do standing wraps ) and kiddo said she was standing even, actually putting all her weight in the front. Kiddo said she stood a bit under her, she's probably releiving her back and hinds now.
She said her legs were a little bit swollen, tendons on the black foot being a bit warm ( most likely due to lowering her 60deg high heels )
She did wraps for me and walked her in the barn, she said she was walking fine and showed no evident signs of pain.

FIOU !

This is sincere,I make money off girls like you,especially when they know alot and can talk the talk.The more they get carged it hurts but,but knoledge is expensive.Get another horse,give that poor horse to some little kid,why don't you act like a grown up.By the time you get this horse sound,you will spend more on shoeing and boarding than to buy a new horse.

[red_hush21]

This is sincere,I make money off girls like you,especially when they know alot and can talk the talk.The more they get carged it hurts but,but knoledge is expensive.Get another horse,give that poor horse to some little kid,why don't you act like a grown up.By the time you get this horse sound,you will spend more on shoeing and boarding than to buy a new horse.

Please read my initial post. Negative criticizm !!! Finger pointing again, ... not here please.

FYI - my horse was sound before.
Why would i get rid of her now after only 6 weeks of being lame, and what makes you think i don't train/ride other horses ?

Perhaps horses are disposable to you, not to me.
And, giving her to a kid ( as you say ) would probably make it worst by their new owner's lack of knowledge of horses and make her miserable.

[Just passin through~]

Please read my initial post. Negative criticizm !!! Finger pointing again, ... not here please.

FYI - my horse was sound before.
Why would i get rid of her now after only 6 weeks of being lame, and what makes you think i don't train/ride other horses ?

Perhaps horses are disposable to you, not to me.
And, giving her to a kid ( as you say ) would probably make it worst by their new owner's lack of knowledge of horses and make her miserable.

Write my name down,in your diary,date it today.2 yrs from now call me back~
I am negitive,i have no credibility,so don't take things to heart~~

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

This is sincere,I make money off girls like you,especially when they know alot and can talk the talk.The more they get carged it hurts but,but knoledge is expensive.Get another horse,give that poor horse to some little kid,why don't you act like a grown up.By the time you get this horse sound,you will spend more on shoeing and boarding than to buy a new horse.

Wow maybe she loves the horse. It's pretty obvious with all her posting on here about how she can help her horse how much she cares about her. I actually thought you we're more prossional than that, silly me.:rolleyes:

[red_hush21]

Write my name down,in your diary,date it today.2 yrs from now call me back~
I am negitive,i have no credibility,so don't take things to heart~~

I can see that :rolleyes:
Please provide me with technical advice on this case from a farrier's standoint. Otherwise, I thank you for your input and take what you say in consideration.

[red_hush21]

Back on topic - hopefully this will not happen again !

Here are the pictures again...

Constructive criticizm, suggestions, technical advice... FROM FARRIERS !

[Phil Armitage]

Back on topic - hopefully this will not happen again !

Here are the pictures again...

Constructive criticizm, suggestions, technical advice... FROM FARRIERS !

I like what he did, nice work. Looks like you have a good farrier. To follow up with you is a caring professional and a keeper.

[red_hush21]

And this is when she was SOUND !!! ( Yes - sound ) In late April 08.
She was trimmed May 15th and then hell broke loose...

[red_hush21]

Is the vet coming out to re-check her now that you've had the new farrier work on her? It's been so long since anyone talked about your horse I can't quite remember... ;)

Vet will do new rads in a month. Unless she becomes worst, he said it's OK.
I spoke to him.

[EDeSocio]

Very interesting... When the horse was lame, there were a few people collectively trying to put together a remedy to help this horse. We come to a conclusion and the hero from the track, (now up in Canada the track shoers are the hot shoeing forge masters, as opposed to the aluminum tapping platers down here I imagine) (no offense, just a difference between the tb's running an oval track and the Standarbred's pulling a cart) and all of a sudden people are coming out of the woodwork to jump all over the guy who suggested a longer toe, shorter heel and the girls who pleaded for us to help her get her horse sound.

So horse is lame and no one bothers..
Horse gets sound and the majority are coming to start trouble...
The horse is sound people.. the horse is sound.. now is not the time to criticize.. our aim was to get the horse sound... quit harassing her because this story had a happy ending...

Go watch the news if you want to see tragedy...

[red_hush21]

Thank you Eric.
The true test will be tonight, I cross my fingers... :eek:

[red_hush21]

Here are pictures from tonight... please don't look at the positionning of the horse !

We just walked her around the arena. She seems to be quite fine. Landing flat and quite comfy. Turns are though...obvioulsy.

[Jaye Perry]

Here are pictures from tonight... please don't look at the positionning of the horse !

We just walked her around the arena. She seems to be quite fine. Landing flat and quite comfy. Turns are though...obvioulsy.


One note of a "Lame" or un-comfotable horse is pinned ears Pony clubers know that tidbit:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Rightstep]

Your horse looks in a lot of pain in those pictures..I am sorry you feel this horse is now sound-she is not. Just because she can not feel the pain in her hooves now does not mean her problems are gone! This horse needs to grow healthy sole and that takes time(more than two weeks). If you are that hell bent on riding this horse in pain-why not just nerve block her?

P.S I love the high level dressage in running shoes and a visor!! Made me giggle...

[red_hush21]

Lol - i know. I was not geared up to ride at all. I know she is still in pain by my farrier advised to walk her at least. So we did. My point was to show you her feet and how she lands and stands.

[red_hush21]

P.S I love the high level dressage in running shoes and a visor!! Made me giggle...

There is no high level being done here !!! My horse was crippled and now she moves better than a week agin, that's what counts to me right now ! No worries... I don't expect her to be back on track for a while. FYI - i often ride in pumas, i find it really nice and closer to the horse.

[Appassionato]

Here are pictures from tonight... please don't look at the positionning of the horse !

A lot can be determined about a horse by looking at the horse's body stance. Especially while NOT being ridden. Taking lots of photos and looking back at your older ones will help tell you the truth about what's working for your horse vs. what isn't.

We just walked her around the arena. She seems to be quite fine. Landing flat and quite comfy. Turns are though...obvioulsy....

...Lol - i know. I was not geared up to ride at all. I know she is still in pain by my farrier advised to walk her at least. So we did. My point was to show you her feet and how she lands and stands.

I think this is where people are getting confused, red_hush21. The horse is perforated, no she isn't perforated...she's lame, no she's been sound the entire time...I'm not picking on you in that I've been in the exact same shoes. Communication about the true state of a horse can be very difficult even when speaking in our native language. And sometimes, no offense, we just wish our horses were completely sound and fine and right doggone now...healing takes time and it wrecks what is left of our nerves.

Sometimes we have to look at how our horses are more sound. You mentioned something about turning being a problem...tight turns? Were you trying to convey that the horse is better in a straight line, but the turns still stink? How is the horse better in a straight line, specifically? You may see a flatter landing, but what about the whole horse? You don't need to answer the questions for me, answer them for you. Then you know if your horse is getting better.

It might also help to send these pictures as well as old pictures to your new farrier and ask some questions about what is truly going on with your horse. I don't mean to interrogate the man, I'm talking about just asking some questions about the differences you've noted to yourself (ie. tightness in shoulder, post-legged stance in the rear, etc.). It could be that the horse is progressing as she should be, or something else may need to happen for her. It could be that he wanted you to ride the horse to get her moving and to stretch her muscles/tendons/ligaments in a way to aid healing, but it may be that some massage or stretches might be better or be helpful in addition to light walking.

[red_hush21]

Appasionato, thank you for this post. I appreciate your feedback and the time you took to answer with your suggestions.

What my horse needs now is simply more foot under her. She needs more toes, lower heels and a wider foot.

I will give her a bit more time ans if i see it's not improving, we will aim for the hoof complete reconstruction. My farrier wil lcome back in 2 weeks and we will reasses then. I have ordered a size 2 Epona, he is quite familiar with this shoe and said he could rebuild her foot with that, or a sigafoo Morisson roller. combined with that impak pad or A+B and a leather pad.
Last summer, when all her hoof wall chipped off and i first came here for help, she was in the same situation as now
( actually worse because she also had a mechanical founder ) she was shod with glue-on & a sigafoo cuff and it worked wonders and she was sound immidialty.

She is missing 1' of hoof height.... right now she's at 3' and a very steep angle. So yes, she is lame and i know this.

She is not being worked, we walked her last night and she is lame.
It's kinda normal too, but she's better than what she was. She no longer hops from foot to foot. That's a good start !
She stands square in her stall and that's a huge improvement.

And, she's bored out of her skull, so i sit on her while giving lessons and we only walk. It's good for her moral trust me !

She does not really move when she's turned out, she stands in the door. If turned out with other horses, she's quite mean with the others and acts like a stud.

She wants to be in the arena with us, she'll call me all night until i take her out.
She gets really ****ed at me if i don't and she pouts. I know these are very '' human'' feelings but it's true.

This is the only way i can walk her and we do not have a walker.
Also, keep in mind i am light weight... about 105lbs-110lbs.

[THamilton]

If your horse is sore on the turn, and after viewing the shoe job, my thoughts are this:

The space in the center of the shoe that exsposes her sole, might be the cause of her issue. What is happening is this area is packing up with material from the arena then causing pressure on her soles. The area where she really needs the protection. JMO from viewing the shoeing package and using what I have from experience and what has been stated as the issue with the horse.

Earlier I mentioned a pad combination, but it covers the entire solar surface of the foot. IF one is concerned with the foot developing funguses of sorts, there are a number of things to use under the pad that is going to help prevent this from occurring. This pad combo I mention is not a "forever" thing. One possibly, two shoeing cycles and then a return to a more normal shoeing unless the horse needs soemthing different.

If a personn is concerned with ait changes or movement, my theory is get the horse sound then the real horse shines through!

Tony

[red_hush21]

If i close the pad, i can't use iodine anymore.
Maybe i could clean that hole and tape it shut ?

[THamilton]

I do not believe that will work. Two steps and the tape will break placing you right where you were before.

I would forgo the iodine and use a ridgid pad over the entire sole making sure there was no touching of the pad to the sole. To me this would ensure your use of the horse and help make the horse sound. One packing you could use under this ridgid pad would be a gauze pad soaked in iodine then something to seal the pad int he back. Not my preferred method.

My belief is that the iodine is a way to toughen the sole with out placing a full pad on the foot. It seems to me that you are needing the protection and the iodine is the leaat of concerns to me. Protect the foot and its internal structures first!

Tony

[red_hush21]

Well, i do think we will go for an epona next time or a roller with a full leather pad and impression material at the frog. My farrier did'nt haveit in stock. He'll be back in 2 weeks.

FYI - the duct tape holds up quite well.

[THamilton]

Great for the tape. BUt what about outside on uneven round that could poke or go through the tape?

I do not know about the leather pad. They are flexible and you might not get the desired results which is total non-flexing protection for your horse. JMO

Tony

[red_hush21]

Great for the tape. BUt what about outside on uneven round that could poke or go through the tape?

I do not know about the leather pad. They are flexible and you might not get the desired results which is total non-flexing protection for your horse. JMO

Tony

Yeah i know. We tried the full pads but thrush kicked in and her soles were all mushy like cottage cheese.

I need a pad that would '' breathe '' if i were to use a closed pad. I do leave the bedding in the hole when i take her out though. It's soft and it makes a '' plug ''.

[Gary Hill]

Use a cotton ball as a plug,works as long as ya stay out of water.

[red_hush21]

Use a cotton ball as a plug,works as long as ya stay out of water.

Good idea ! Thank you Mr. Hill :D

[George Geist]

(now up in Canada the track shoers are the hot shoeing forge masters, as opposed to the aluminum tapping platers down here I imagine) (no offense, just a difference between the tb's running an oval track and the Standarbred's pulling a cart)
Try the racetrack test yourself sometime before taking a cheap shot at racetrack shoers:rolleyes:
George

[high performance shoeing]

Try the racetrack test yourself sometime before taking a cheap shot at racetrack shoers:rolleyes:
George

George, are you serious? They practically give those things away... actually they DO give them away sometimes!

[EDeSocio]

Try the racetrack test yourself sometime before taking a cheap shot at racetrack shoers:rolleyes:
George

George, you took that wrong.. I wasn't bashing the platers at all... What I was trying to do was distinguish what has been explained to me.. down here the track shoers work with aluminum shoes, stall jacks and very little equipment. The standardbred shoers up in Canada apply their shoes and hand make most of everything and they tend to be hard to get a hold of and very handy in the forge..
Again, not taking anything away from the platers but just distinguishing the track shoers...

[George Geist]

George, are you serious? They practically give those things away... actually they DO give them away sometimes! Try it yourself too ol'man. It will surely give you a better appreciation for it

George, you took that wrong.. I wasn't bashing the platers at all... What I was trying to do was distinguish what has been explained to me.. Sorry to be the one to enlighten you to the fact that what was told to you was wrong.down here the track shoers work with aluminum shoes, stall jacks and very little equipment. They also have a fully equipped shop in which a myriad of things can be and are often done. Ever hear of a guy named George Earnest? Ever work with anybody who made every tool in their box? There's a reason why these guys are entrusted with millions of $ worth of horseflesh. The standardbred shoers up in Canada apply their shoes and hand make most of everything and they tend to be hard to get a hold of and very handy in the forge.. Well being that I was raised in Standardbred country I'm not sure if much is done differently in Canada as it was where I came from. Having said that I'll agree that Standardbred shoers are and always have been some of the best to ever lift a hammer. Has nothing to do with geography. Don't sell platers short. What you see them do is nowhere near indicative of what their capable of.

Again, not taking anything away from the platers but just distinguishing the track shoers...
That sounds like something Phil would have said. You're not conferring with him on this are you?:eek:
George

[Jake Whitman]

Hey George , Do you know why God created Race-Platers?? So the Carni's would have someone to make fun of!

[George Geist]

Hey George , Do you know why God created Race-Platers?? So the Carni's would have someone to make fun of!
LOL maybe so:)

But then again we don't want to get started on team ropers now do we?:D
George

[red_hush21]

Kiddo went to the barn last night and slept over - she said she took Fay out and she was very happy, her legs are no longer warm or swollen. So that's a good sign !

[EDeSocio]

Excellent.. great to hear the updates...

[RON LEMMONS]

Adele Your new farrier did a good combo on your horse. the pads and 1/2 rounds is what I would or done frist when you started having lamnes on her.that the typ of shoe I said in my frist post. Im glad you and your horse are happyer now. good luck with your new farrier and a sounder house

[Red Amor]

Yes that realy good to hear mate

[red_hush21]

Pictures from today... she's still a bit sensitive.
( Jasmine wants to drive and we are arguing over how hangs on to the reins )

[red_hush21]

feet... hopefully better shot

[red_hush21]

more.... better shots

[red_hush21]

more.... your thoughts.

[Gary Hill]

I usually find that it takes anywhere from 10 to 14 days after a shoeing change for everything to settle down. You are in just a bit of a hurry, give the horse some needed time off and see what shows in another week or so? JMO

[Phil Armitage]

I usually find that it takes anywhere from 10 to 14 days after a shoeing change for everything to settle down. You are in just a bit of a hurry, give the horse some needed time off and see what shows in another week or so? JMO

Ditto. You found a good farrier now just give it some time and reevaluate at each shoeing cycle.

I find we tend to forget about the hind end when dealing with front end issues. How do her hind feet look?

[red_hush21]

Phill, they look terrible. The last farrier had used huge nails and set 4 on each sise. When the shoes were removed due to the thrush she developped because of the closed pads, some of her horn at the quarters broke off. Right now she has a regular St croix side clipped with a 3 deg. wedge pad cut open in the middle, some rocker at the toe but not enough in my book. She will be reshod in 2 weeks with a fullered, wider web and more rolled toe. I will also ask for a softer rimpad. She kicks in her stall a lot at lunch time.

Here is a short video too,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3650JZMd6s0

[red_hush21]

I usually find that it takes anywhere from 10 to 14 days after a shoeing change for everything to settle down. You are in just a bit of a hurry, give the horse some needed time off and see what shows in another week or so? JMO

Yes of course... i said i would repost more pictures since the first ones kinda sucked. I also have a video.

Should we stay with the current shoeing ? I also hae the option of the Epona with A+B packing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3650JZMd6s0

[Phil Armitage]

Phill, they look terrible. The last farrier had used huge nails and set 4 on each sise. When the shoes were removed due to the thrush she developped because of the closed pads, some of her horn at the quarters broke off. Right now she has a regular St croix side clipped with a 3 deg. wedge pad cut open in the middle, some rocker at the toe but not enough in my book. She will be reshod in 2 weeks with a fullered, wider web and more rolled toe. I will also ask for a softer rimpad. She kicks in her stall a lot at lunch time.

Here is a short video too,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3650JZMd6s0

Adele, are you talking about this shoeing? I quess I am a bit confused.

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6258&stc=1&d=1214970513

[Phil Armitage]

One note of a "Lame" or un-comfotable horse is pinned ears Pony clubers know that tidbit:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Good point, however it seems others are assumeing her discomfort is in her feet. Could be attitude, saddle, bit who knows?

[red_hush21]

Phil, it is the feet... she has the bobble-head walk unless we are in the indoor arena wich has softer sand and not as deep ground ( reining footing )

These pictures with the green pad are of the fore.
The hinds were not done by the same farrier i have now.
He said the last guy used too big nails and it made her hoofwall very brittle.
I'll let it grow and make sure we have enough foot to work with, would'nt want to have 4 sore feet or i might need a hovercraft !

She still has swelling on the fore, sensitive to tapping with a brush... i think she needs much more protection than just that pad.

Her heels grow so fast, they gained one degree in one week and i measured it. Toe and sole does not grow much.

I think at this point we'll try a roller motion. What do you think Phil ?
Roller ( flat from GC ) with dental M. frog support and a leather pad to close it up and let it breathe ?

[EDeSocio]

pinned ears, sminned ears.. she just doesn't understand you talking in French so she is turning an ear to listen harder and try to figure your verbal commands out

[caballus]

I have a question here. Your first post was on July 1st. It's now only July 8th. Only 8 days after the P3 was said to be almost perforating and you're riding this horse? You said the heels are growing twice as fast as the toes - classical founder result. Horse is tender on the corners because the P3 attachment is still highly jeopardized. Horse cannot possibly be "almost sound" or sound in this short period of time. No shoe can regrow laminar attachment - that takes time and that is what this mare needs. The torn lamina in the foot is sore. Think of partially tearing of your toenail from the nailbed and the pain that is involved. No shoe completely erases that pain and it takes a long time for a new nail to grow in. Usually by the time 1/2 a new nail has grown in the toe is feeling fine. Same with the horse's hoof. Until then the horse is going to be sore. Give her time to heal.

JMHO.

--Gwen

[Rightstep]

Growing more heel than toe is a sign of founder/laminitis. Soggy sole, thrush and weak brittle hoof wall are also signs of sugar overload in the diet. It also tells you that your horse is not landing heel first. Since your horse has been confined to a stall and off pasture, I would have to say again that your horse is being fed very rich hay and feed. All the shoe's in the world will not help if the diet is not fixed. The lamina will continue to stretch and tear with the new growth of hoof. How much grain/processed feed if your horse eating per day?

Your horse needs a good MONTH or two off at least!!!! If you want to have a horse you can ride that is sound, she needs time to heal. Unless it is already too late....Why not get a leased horse you and your family can ride for the rest of the summer, instead of your lame mare?

Watching your video, again the horse is in a lot of pain. Shoulders, top line, hind end and elbows all show PAIN...

[Mark_Gough]

Yes of course... i said i would repost more pictures since the first ones kinda sucked. I also have a video.

Should we stay with the current shoeing ? I also hae the option of the Epona with A+B packing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3650JZMd6s0

The photos, videos and discussion of this horse has been interesting. Thank you for investing the time and effort to present and share such detailed information on this forum.

Should you have the opportunity, would you consider creating another video with the horse moving in the same broad circle as above, at the same speed, but on a long line instead of under saddle and bridle?

Mark

[red_hush21]

Yes i will Mark.
Eric is correct, pinned ears are always the case with my mare= She listens to me and especially if Jasmien is on too.

No active founder.
Not perforated, i had corrected that and excused my french !

Her diet is fine, no grain, only hay and a cup of soy + her vitamins, Gluco MSM and Biotine.

She is turned out on sand, i think the current pads don't protect her soles enough.

She grows heel in response to the pain felt from P3.
She lands slightly heels first - flat. Heels are very high relative to the toe.

Again, this is a very '' mechanical '' case, no active founder, no cushing, only clubby-looking feet that were 100% man-made. Toes were rasped away, heels left at 60deg. high

This is why i am asking for advice from farriers on how to shoe her and provide proper mechanics.

We need to protect the sole, support the frog, lower the heels as much as possible and get the sole growing under P3.

What would be the best option ?

[red_hush21]

Ron, do you think a roller shoe could help her ?
How would you do it ?

I went through all the documentation from Dr. Redden's site and it makes sense to me. I can get my farrier to order the grand circuit roller wich has a flat solar plane to avoid trimming in her foot. Or, i have a pair of Eponas that might protect her foot better that what she has on now.

[red_hush21]

I usually find that it takes anywhere from 10 to 14 days after a shoeing change for everything to settle down. You are in just a bit of a hurry, give the horse some needed time off and see what shows in another week or so? JMO

I am being proactive here... my farrier should come back next week to lower the heels again and he said if she was still '' sole '' sore we would try somethign else.

[Auventera]

The mare is high headed and hollow with pinned ears. Everything you've posted is classic BIG RED WARNING FLAGS of laminitis or founder. You need to stop riding this mare and let her heal. If you're that gung ho to get on a horse's back then buy another one or borrow a friend's. You are not doing this mare any favors by riding her. The video shows no signs whatsoever of a "high level dressage horse." She looks like a saddlebred going around in a headset. Please quit riding the mare and give things time to settle down. Sheesh.

Now you're going to have her reset after just 2 weeks? All the pounding and rasping can create discomfort as well. I watched a horse hit the ceiling (literally) when the hammer hit her foot. The horse was laminitic.

Your mare has been monkeyed with more times than I can count in the last few weeks. You put shoes on a lame horse, but you still have a lame horse. The shoes have improved her situation, which is excellent, but she still needs time to heal.

Besides, I thought you had a great farrier who was god's gift to this horse?? So why are you asking strangers 2,000 miles away how to shoe the horse? If you hired a farrier to do it, then let him do his job.

[EDeSocio]

Well, the way I look at this, we had a horse that could not move out of her stall, dead lame and a concerned/educated and proactive horse owner/trainer/fix the dang feet herself when no one else can'er.....
I asked what is different and the obvious was shorter toes than what she saw from previous shoeings, longer heels than what she observed from previous shoeings and when did this horse go lame... after the previous shoeing. So I started with basics, the obvious and said lets see if we can fix the obvious, the basic and said try relieving the shorter toe pulling on the three tendons and reverse a wedge, tapping to the feet and voila, it worked... (notice the french for our little canuck...) So after the simple fix and the quality farrier came and did wonders and the horse was better we had people coming out of the wood work slamming us for getting the horse better... I rephrase that ....--- slamming us because what we suggested, worked!---
So we got the horse better and we were slammed, had people accusing me of diagnosing a simple angular issue from a mere owner's description, now all of you are diagnosing the horse with founder? The horse is lame so she is foundered? Do any of you know what founder/laminitis is? And... what is your prescription? Stall rest? Immobilization?

Laminitis, laminae is the laminae, itis is swelling, laminitis swelling of the laminae from a pooling of the blood in the laminae. What helps pump the blood up those long legs? The frog... how does the frog aid in pumping the blood? Pressure from the horses weight coming down through the leg, and squashing the frog.. the laminae, the lateral cartilages and the shape of the horse's foot all help to dissipate the concussion but the squashing of the frog helps pump that blood up those long legs... So the blood is pooling in the laminae, the laminae is stretching from the swelling, leading to foundering, to rotation from the stretched laminae pushing the hoof wall forward and up and the coffin bone down and back... So you are suggesting immobilizing the horse? Hello Barbaro... remember, he broke a leg and putting the leg back together they had to immobilize him to heal that leg, good for the leg, bad for the other feet.. he foundered.. because he couldn't walk, utilizing the frogs of his feet and pump that blood out of the laminae... so now you are suggesting stall rest, immobilizing the horse because of founder?

The living body is a machine, it is the only machine that gets better with use. Move that horse, exercise that horse, fight through the pain, speak english to the horse (It may help?) but let that horse get better... fight up the hill, slouch and slide down the hill.

[caballus]

OP posted 7/1/08: Pulled the shoes, farrier's face turned white and he said '' she's perforated ''

Indeed, we see the tip of P3 imprint in the sole.
It's not out yet but it would be if her heels were left as is and her foot to '' heal naturally ''

No need for hoof testers, he moved the sole with his bare hands.

59 deg. at both heels. I forgot the toes but it's very steep.

OP posted 7/3/08: She no longer hops from foot to foot
Op posted 7/4/08: she was very happy, her legs are no longer warm or swollen. This is the only way i can walk her and we do not have a walker. Walk her IN HAND ... don't ride her IF all you've posted is true ... your mare is rotated - foundered. (noted rings on walls of hooves ... wider at heel than at coronary and dorsal toe wall = rotation) Turn her out with another horse who will "move" her around a bit. Better than standing in stall.

No active founder.
Not perforated, i had corrected that and excused my french !

Her diet is fine, no grain, only hay and a cup of soy + her vitamins, Gluco MSM and Biotine.

She is turned out on sand, i think the current pads don't protect her soles enough.

She grows heel in response to the pain felt from P3.
She lands slightly heels first - flat. Heels are very high relative to the toe.

Again, this is a very '' mechanical '' case, no active founder, no cushing, only clubby-looking feet that were 100% man-made. Toes were rasped away, heels left at 60deg. high
Glucosamine is ... GLUCOSamine = Sugar. Hay can be too rich and very high in sugars. Sugars = yucky hooves. Landing heel first probably because her toes hurt. Soles so thin that can be manipulated by human hand along with shifting from foot to foot and rings around the hoofwall, heat, swelling ... if your farrier and vet are both saying "no active founder/no active laminitis" then i would find new vet and new farrier who are knowledgeable about horses' hooves.

--Gwen

[red_hush21]

Well said Eric.
Indeed, i have tryed many things... never bought that much tucktape my my life !

My new '' stable nickname'' McGiver suits me well i think.

She is quite sensitive, yes.
Foundering, no.
No heat on the feet, no digital pulse, no founder strain.
I have seen founder, she is NOT in any form of founder.
Vet and Farrier confirmed it. There is no active founder so drop it.

Yes, my farrier said we have to lower her heels gradually.
Yes resets each 2 weeks. Taking the heel out only.

But keeping her in her stall will make things worst.
We only walk around the barn, she likes being out, i don't want my horse to be depressed either. I ride her bareback and hang out with the others so she does not feel left out.

Reverse wedged rollers - flat solar pane - with lateral extentions on the outside at the quarters.... that is what made her instantly better.

Eric, i am sure you can make that ?! I'll paypal you the $.

A french farrier who is now in the US suggested i try the Epona and bevel them to roll them more. The Epona will protect her soles more that the current half rounds & pad we have on.

Your thoughts,

[irishcas]

Amen to everything Vickey and Gwen said.

I think the OP contradicts herself a lot.

When I suggested in a PM that she might consider going barefoot for a brief period OP replied.

I can't horse HATES being outside.

Now OP states:
But keeping her in her stall will make things worst.
We only walk around the barn, she likes being out,

HUH?

I am a little disturbed that OP is a saddle fitter and Equine Specialist, yet there is no qualms about riding the poor horse around with what looks like hind end issues along with all the front feet issues.

Finally why on earth would you ride a lame horse with a baby without a helmet on board? In a double bridle no less. Don't get that at all.

Anyway, I will say the trim looks better, so there is some positive in there.

Kim Cassidy

[red_hush21]

Auventura & Caballus, you are not farriers if i recall... i did the hole barefoot thing and i don't think it's for my mare. Yes i know shoes are evil and you probably think i am too.

I need technical advice on shoeing. My farrier is great and i have advice from some of the best of the USA right here.
I have a vet for healthcare advice. Please refain from telling me what to do with my horse unless you are a CF or a vet.

***********************************************
FYI - the Glucosamine molecule is a monosaccharide - not a polysaccharide. Molecule reads as follows: C6H13NO5

It is similar to a carbohydrate (a sugar), but the body is not able to convert Glucosamine into Glucose. It cannot be hydrolyzed into simpler sugars, therefore has no effect of blood sugar per se.

It's not because there is the acronym '' gluco '' that it is a starch-sugar. I studied in bio-chemistery, thank you...

Before you make statements that could affect your credibility, you should maybe make sure you know what you are talking about.

[red_hush21]

Finally why on earth would you ride a lame horse with a baby without a helmet on board? In a double bridle no less. Don't get that at all.


Kim, i see you can't tell the difference between a double bridle and a pelham bit...

[red_hush21]

There is no current research that can prove Glucosamine has negative effect on normal subjects with normal blood sugar levels. People with Type 2 diabetes should avoid it, but it is far as if i was feeding grain to my horse !!!

[caballus]

Lots of new evidence for glucosamine actually causing insulin resistance:

1: Diabetes Obes Metab. 2004 Jul;6(4):293-8. Related Articles, Links

Glucosamine-induced insulin resistance in L6 muscle cells.

Bailey CJ, Turner SL.

School of Life and Health Sciences, Aston University, Birmingham, UK.
c.j.bailey@aston.ac.uk

BACKGROUND: Glucosamine increases flux through the hexosamine pathway,
causing insulin resistance and disturbances similar to diabetic glucose
toxicity.Glucosamine induces resistance to insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and
insulin in Hep G2 cell cultures: biological significance of IGF-I/insulin
hybrid receptors.

Sakai K, Clemmons DR.

Department of Medicine, University of North Carolina School of Medicine,
Chapel Hill, North Carolina 27599, USA.

IGF-I stimulates insulin-like actions directly through its receptor, and it
also enhances sensitivity to insulin-mediated effects in vivo.

Department of Medicine and Bioregulatory Science, Graduate School of Medical
Sciences, Kyushu University, Fukuoka, Japan.
hiroyasi.yoshikawa@medisin.ntnu.no
CONCLUSION: These data imply that
glucosamine impairs glucose-induced insulin release probably through the
inhibition of glucose metabolism.

Just some excerpts from some papers concerning Glucosamine. Thought you might be interested. ;)

Now ... you wrote, Auventura & Caballus, you are not farriers if i recall... i did the hole barefoot thing and i don't think it's for my mare. Yes i know shoes are evil and you probably think i am too.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with shoes vs. barefoot. A hoof is a hoof. A foundered hoof is a foundered hoof. No, I'm not a farrier but am knowledgeable about laminitic and foundered hooves. I've not mentioned one thing about shoes or not. That's your choice. What disturbs me is the contradictions that are playing here in this thread. Either your horse has foundered or you've taken us all for a little ride for your amusement.

Which is it?

--Gwen

PS You wrote, Please refain from telling me what to do with my horse unless you are a CF or a vet.
... another FYI ... I teach hoofcare to vets and farriers, Red, and in this country we are free to speak our minds. You may, as you advised others right from the get go, choose not to read my posts, if you'd like. Free to do that, also. :)

[EDeSocio]

OP posted 7/1/08: if your farrier and vet are both saying "no active founder/no active laminitis" then i would find new vet and new farrier who are knowledgeable about horses' hooves.

--Gwen

Lets see.... Her farrier is the first who can make the horse better since the horse got lame from a previous farrier... the only farrier who knew what he was doing... He doesn't see founder... he sees what the problem is and is fixing it with the future in his sights... the Vet agrees. X rays are there. So if those are grounds to fire them and get a new farrier and vet I would suggest you give your horses away and invest in gerbils.

[Rick Burten]

itis is swelling,

Actually, "itis" refers to inflammation.

laminitis swelling of the laminae from a pooling of the blood in the laminae.

Actually, laminitis refers to an inflammation of the laminae.

Further, are you aware that there are currently three hypotheses regarding the mechanism/cause of laminar failure?

To wit:

1. Classical inflammation, which includes infiltration of potentially destructive white blood cells.

2. Ischemia-reperfusion injury. (Researchers have observed both decreased and increased blood flow to the laminae.).

3. Metabolic derangements that lead to impaired cell function and proteolytic enzyme activation

What helps pump the blood up those long legs? The frog... how does the frog aid in pumping the blood? Pressure from the horses weight coming down through the leg, and squashing the frog.. the laminae, the lateral cartilages and the shape of the horse's foot all help to dissipate the concussion but the squashing of the frog helps pump that blood up those long legs...

I think you might find Dr. Bowker's "Theory of Hemodynamics" to be at odds with your description, which, is, by the way, also only a theory.

So the blood is pooling in the laminae, the laminae is stretching from the swelling, leading to foundering, to rotation from the stretched laminae pushing the hoof wall forward and up and the coffin bone down and back...

Eric, I think you need to do more personal research on the subject of laminitis and founder. For example, the laminae don't stretch from the swelling, they disinterdigitate as a result of inflammation and mechanical stress placed on them by the weight of the horse and the action(s) of the tendons, particularly the DDFT. Further, the laminae, in and of themselves, possess no ability to to "push the hoof wall forward and up and the coffin bone down and back..."

So you are suggesting immobilizing the horse? Hello Barbaro... remember, he broke a leg and putting the leg back together they had to immobilize him to heal that leg, good for the leg, bad for the other feet.. he foundered.. because he couldn't walk, utilizing the frogs of his feet and pump that blood out of the laminae...

Again, your understanding of what actually occurred and why, is IMNTBCHO, incorrect. Further personal research on your part is indicated.

so now you are suggesting stall rest, immobilizing the horse because of founder?

There is a time, a place and a reason for this particular protocol. Understanding, why and when, comes with study and experience.

The living body is a machine, it is the only machine that gets better with use.

I know many living bodies(my own included) in several different and distinct species, that would disagree with you, at least philosophically, if not actually.

Move that horse, exercise that horse, fight through the pain,

Quite possibly, this is bad advise. Allowing the horse, at least initially, to determine the amount and degree of exercise and movement may be a far more practical, pragmatic and life saving approach.

IIRC, the only other person(and her acolytes) who advocates forced movement and exercise for horses with severe limb/hoof pathology(in this instance, laminitis and/or founder), is F. Strasser.

Personally, I wouldn't want my name associated with hers in either print or verbal exchange. :eek:

[Rick Burten]

Auventura & Caballus, you are not farriers if i recall... i did the hole barefoot thing and i don't think it's for my mare. Yes i know shoes are evil and you probably think i am too.

I need technical advice on shoeing. My farrier is great and i have advice from some of the best of the USA right here.
I have a vet for healthcare advice. Please refain from telling me what to do with my horse unless you are a CF or a vet.

In this particular instance, to not listen to and utilize what Gwen, Kim and Vickey have to say/offer, is much akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.....

And as can be demonstrated, not every veterinarian or CF, et al, has the knowledge, skill and/or ability to help you with your horse's current problems.

Before you make statements that could affect your credibility, you should maybe make sure you know what you are talking about.

Ditto :o

[Rick Burten]

So if those are grounds to fire them and get a new farrier and vet I would suggest you give your horses away and invest in gerbils.

Careful Eric lest you be tarred by your own brush.....

[Rick Burten]

He said the last guy used too big nails and it made her hoofwall very brittle.

Exactly how would the nails have caused this phenomenon? Hopefully, your new farrier was able to explain this to you.

She still has swelling on the fore, sensitive to tapping with a brush...

Then why are you riding her?

Her heels grow so fast, they gained one degree in one week and i measured it. Toe and sole does not grow much.

You measured her, how?

I think at this point we'll try a roller motion.
Roller ( flat from GC ) with dental M. frog support and a leather pad to close it up and let it breathe ?

I think at this point you need to take a break from messing with her and give her a dose of Tincture of Time.

And, as far as the pinned ears issue, there is a difference between having the ears back in a relaxed "listening" position and having the ears pinned against the neck in pain, rage, or disobedience. At times, I see both situations exhibited by your horse.

[calshoer]

I need technical advice on shoeing. My farrier is great and i have advice from some of the best of the USA right here.
I have a vet for healthcare advice. Please refain from telling me what to do with my horse unless you are a CF or a vet.Non vets and farriers are Horse owners are allowed to post in this section so if you dont want their advice ,ignore it.
That said I will repeat my professpnal advice, as a farrier.
What I told you before....STOP changing her shoeing for a while!!!

LET HER FEET REST!

You need PATIENCE.

That's it. I am not going even TRY to advise you any more , because you just keep mucking with her feet every couple of weeks, re-traumatizing them, no matter how many people tell you to let it be for a while.

[Appassionato]

From the first page of this thread, parts of interest in bold:

My english traduction for what he said is probably off... what he said in french is '' elle est défoncée '' That means her foot collapsed in proper terms but it's a slang word too for saying that something is crushed, trashed or destroyed.

What did your farrier mean when he said all that? Maybe clarifying this would help with the confusion.

She is quite sensitive, yes.
Foundering, no.
No heat on the feet, no digital pulse, no founder strain.
I have seen founder, she is NOT in any form of founder.
Vet and Farrier confirmed it. There is no active founder so drop it.

A horse will sometimes not show very good signs. Some horses can and will "fly under the radar" on you.

And as can be demonstrated, not every veterinarian or CF, et al, has the knowledge, skill and/or ability to help you with your horse's current problems.

Isn't that the truth! Been there and done that myself. The first and worst vet has been cited in laminitis articles...get THAT one! Talk about a slap in the face.

The living body is a machine, it is the only machine that gets better with use. Move that horse, exercise that horse, fight through the pain...

This has been the most interesting advice I've ever seen given for laminitis/founder.

[Katy Watts]

For example, the laminae don't stretch from the swelling, they disinterdigitate

Not necessarily so. Laminitis resulting from high insulin does result in stretching of the terminal ends. Following quote by Chris Pollitt:

"IR laminitis seems quite different to the toxemia associated form. We cannot find much evidence of MMP involvement or any major basement membrane lesion. Hemidesmosomes are damaged, laminar basal cells proliferate and laminae become longer and thinner (perhaps allowing P3 to sink/rotate little by little. "

[Rick Burten]

Thanks Katy.

I stand corrected.

One question, does this mean that the laminae actually stretch due to swelling as was stated?

And, wouldn't 'disinterdigitation' be akin to 'stretching' as applied in context? :)

[irishcas]

I think at this point you need to take a break from messing with her and give her a dose of Tincture of Time.

And, as far as the pinned ears issue, there is a difference between having the ears back in a relaxed "listening" position and having the ears pinned against the neck in pain, rage, or disobedience. At times, I see both situations exhibited by your horse.

Well Rick is a Farrier, so I hope you will listen to him and if his advice doesn't suit you, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, actually LISTEN to your horse.

Holy Toledo Batman.

Kim Cassidy

[Katy Watts]

One question, does this mean that the laminae actually stretch due to swelling as was stated?

And, wouldn't 'disinterdigitation' be akin to 'stretching' as applied in context? :)

I've never heard anyone theorize what causes the stretching. Suppose either gravity or swelling could cause it. They really don't have a cellular mechanism yet for insulin laminitis. IMO, gravity is enough to do it. You put proper support under these horses and sometimes get dramatic improvement in soundness. I really don't know any standard definition of 'disinterdigitation' but it sounds more to me like when the basement membrane detaches completely and the laminae come apart. That doesn't happen with insulin induced laminitis. Like Chris says, it can happen very gradually instead of just 'letting go' like with endotoxin induced laminitis. Slow sinking, and stretched white line with bloody specks are the signs.

[red_hush21]

[QUOTE=caballus;117062]Just some excerpts from some papers concerning Glucosamine. Thought you might be interested. ;)

Now ... you wrote,

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with shoes vs. barefoot. A hoof is a hoof. A foundered hoof is a foundered hoof. No, I'm not a farrier but am knowledgeable about laminitic and foundered hooves. I've not mentioned one thing about shoes or not. That's your choice. What disturbs me is the contradictions that are playing here in this thread. Either your horse has foundered or you've taken us all for a little ride for your amusement.

QUOTE]

This is off topic - but yes Gluco. should not be administered to humans with type type 2. Diab. in prevention of any LETHAL reactions.
You are comparing apples to oranges. My horse is free of any insuline resistance disorders and i do not think giving her one scoop of gluco per day ( wich really helps her joints by the way ) will do anything.
These papers report to humans, not horses. And these passages are parts of a bigger study you probably do not understand.

And... for the last time, she has not foundered recently.
If you look at the Xrays i have posted, we see a P2 subluxaion but no detachement of the lamina. This is all due to really bad trimming. Period.

Yes, Mr Burten is right and i will get my vet to look at her next week if things do not improve. My vet looked at the current shoeing and he said it was OK but not optimal. He wants the heels to come off, same as what my farrier said. Right now, her heels are at 60 deg. Gradually lowering her heels will be the best option since she grows heel very fast and this only exacerbates the P2 luxation and standing on the tip of her bones.

And, i am only walking her - not racing her.

[red_hush21]

You measured her, how?



With a hoof gague... We have one at the stable.

[Appassionato]

My horse is free of any insuline resistance disorders and i do not think giving her one scoop of gluco per day ( wich really helps her joints by the way ) will do anything.

When was the horse tested for IR? Have other metabolic problems been ruled out as well?

Am I correct in my thinking that you said the horse mechanically foundered before? If so, how long ago was that? And would you happen to have those x-rays?

[Cyber Farrier]

I think... that Red will take all the advice she's been given into account, and perhaps in a month or so will check back and let everyone know what the status is. This thread has outlived it's usefulness in terms of new advice.

Baron