Lame pony--Please help

[kriskyl33]

I'm hoping someone can help me with my daughter's pony. We bought him 1 year ago-vet checked but didn't do x-rays. Vet check was fine except vet mentioned something about conformation of RF hoof might predispose it to thrush (deep sulci I think). Also said pony needed a trim soon. Farrier came out and trimmed pony--said RF heel was high and she would bring it down slowly. Pony did well but at next trim farrier watched him trot circle and said he was slightly off RF. A few days later he was very sore and another farrier that was at barn looked at him and found a cut near the point of his frog that went down to the tender tissues. He disinfected it and bandaged it. He also described the foot as slightly clubby. I had vet out and she just said to continue soaks and bandages and keep it clean. A seemed to get sound pretty quickly but we continued treatment for a couple weeks. Then we moved pony to a new barn and started using the farrier that did all the other horses in the barn. He recommended shoes in front since he was going to be started jumping. Pony did well and seemed very sound for several months. Then a couple months ago pony started not always picking up his right lead when asked (but would always get it second time). Pony has always been described as stiffer to the right. Also, started always landing on left lead after a jump and was not easy to get a lead change to the right though changes well to the left. (He is still learning lead changes though.) Then about 3 weeks ago I started noticing an occasional mild lameness when circled to the right--hardly noticable though. I started looking at his feet and noticed that his heels seemed high--right more than left, and his frog was peeling away and no where near the ground. I mentioned this to the farrier when he was due for trimming and reshoeing last week and he said he would check his angles. Well, next day pony was very lame when trotted in deep soft footing of arena. I noticed a deep crack in the middle of his frog and thought maybe it was thrush. I soaked foot in epsom salts and treated with thrush buster and kept him in stall for 2 days. He seemed much better and was almost sound. I turned him out in his paddock and next day was very lame again. His lameness is most noticable in soft arena footing-he doesn't stumble while walking on gravel, and has been seen tearing around his hard dirt paddock at full gallop. Talked to the farrier and he said RF was more upright than LF and he lowered the angle from 55 to 53 degrees. A different farrier looked at him 1 week after initial trim, and he said foot was trimmed too short, and shoe was too small and was set inside his foot at the heels--no room for expansion. He pulled the shoe and had me trot pony and pony was much worse without the shoe. He then replaced with properly fitting shoe with full pad, and said see how he was after a few days. Well. its been 3 days and pony is no better. Could a 2 degree lowering of the heels cause tendon/ligament stress? Also, if this is a navicular pony (I hate to even type the word), could lowering his hoof angle exacerbate the condition enough to cause such headbobbing lameness at trot? Should I have a wedge pad placed to raise his heels back up. Can a too close trim cause lameness that lasts 1 1/2 weeks? Pony seems sore when I push on heel/frog area. Also, if farrier was slowly allowing heels to get high again, could that explain the gradual change in performance issues and slight lameness? Any insights would be appreciated--my 11 year old daughter is very worried about her pony.
Thanks,
Ellen

[kriskyl33]

One thing I forgot to mention (like it wasn't a long enough post already), the vet has been called but can't come out until next week. I'm just hoping that more damage isn't being done in the meantime. Also, keeping pony in stall would be very difficult. He is usually outside 24/7, and all the other horses at this facility are kept outside also, so he goes crazy when locked in by himself. I thought he was going to kick right through the stall when I kept him in for 2 days last week.
Ellen

[cynthia-jay]

In an honest attempt to "fix" this pony it sounds as though you have a good idea of what is going on

Have your Vet look this pony over good and evaluate the recent shoeing /trimming differences

This alone can cause havoc and your pony may have high/low syndrome (to a clubby more upright foot and the other a bit longer and lower)

If you can post some good photos on this sight you'll get alot of advice to your problems

to answer your questions "Yes" this all can have an effect on your pony's performance to the lameness you are experiancing

If your Vet is experianced in Equine lameness issues he/she may be able to prescribe a trim/shoeing that will balance this little guy out for you

and pay attention to the rear 1/2 of the horse as to where the hinds are as well.

Best to you
as always
Jay

[kriskyl33]

Thanks for your response. I am looking forward to having the vet examine this pony, and I want to have all the information I can at that time. I figure this acute lameness after shoeing can be due to 1 of 3 things:

1. Foot was trimmed too short in an attempt to lower heel which caused sole soreness and possible bruising.

2. Heel was lowered too much at one time causing strain of the tendons/ligaments at the back of the foot. I don't know if this lameness would come on so quickly after shoeing--pony was very lame next day (I didn't see him day of shoeing--may have been lame then too)

3. Pony could have navicular and from what I understand treatment usually involves raising heel. So possibly lowering heel 2 degrees caused pain and inflammation in the navicular area? Pony did have some very mild performance issues with right side before shoeing, and a few days of mild lameness with right front.

I am just wondering what the experts on this site think the most plausible explanation would be. I understand a diagnosis cannot be made without an actual exam. Both of this pony's front feet are somewhat upright, and right was more so than left before shoeing. I will post pictures but I am out of town and won't see pony for a few days.

Thanks for any help.
Ellen

By the way, this pony is not a little guy. He is 14/2 and very stocky--I think he weighs more than most of the TBs at this barn. So he carries a lot of weight around on those feet.

[kriskyl33]

OK, I'm going to try to post some pictures. They are not the best but hopefully I'll get some feedback. Vet was out and blocked heel and pony improved but still not 100%. Vet thought gait irregularity was from one leg being longer than the other since he only has a pad on one side. Vet will be back out to take x-rays--didn't want to remove shoe without a farrier lined up to replace it. Thanks for any help.
Ellen

P.S. more pictures in my next post

[kriskyl33]

More pictures-some hind feet pictures too.

[kriskyl33]

One more picture.

[J.H. shoeing]

Is the Vet that examined the horse a lameness vet or in a mixed practice and will see horses also? Sounds like this guys confirmation maybe a large part of his lameness. My suggestion is call/haul to an equine clinic that has the equipment/facilities/vets/farriers and have a lameness evaluation done and the shoeing, if needed, done at the clinic. You don't mention the age of your horse in the post but did mention some prior lameness issues along with some comfirmational issues. If he needs to be fixed step up to the plate and haul him in to a clinic where they are able to find out what the problems are and come up with a protocall for treatment and rehab.

Jeff

[kriskyl33]

Thanks for the reply. This horse does have some conformation issues--mostly that he toes out in front. The pictures make him look worse because he wasn't cooperating in how he was standing. I was trying to get him to stand square in the crossties and it wasn't working. The vet that is seeing him does horses and nothing else. She suggested x-rays of both front feet to see how all the bones line up, etc., then she is going to work with a farrier that she suggested and trusts and together they are going to determine a trimmimg and shoeing protocol. She did mention addressing breakover and that seems to be a big issue on these boards. I don't know if anything can be done about it but this pony really wings in with his front feet--I'm assuming that is due to his toe out conformation. I know his conformation can't be fixed with shoeing (he is 6 years old by the way), but can his way of moving be improved? It's amazing that he doesn't bump the inside of his front legs with the opposite fronts--but he doesn't at all.
Ellen

[kriskyl33]

well, this thread didn't generate a lot of response, but if anyone is interested I will update you. Vet came back and x-rayed pony and didn't see anything on x-ray to cause lameness--x-rayed both front feet and they both looked good according to vet. She said RF still looked slightly steep in upper part of foot so she instructed farrier to try to bring heel down a little bit more. That kind of worried me because it was the trimming of heels and lowering of angle of that foot that caused acute lameness in the first place. So farrier came out and said the RF was still 3 degrees higher than LF, and lowered it 1 more degree. In the meantime the pony had gone back to being sound or close to it. He hadn't been ridden since this all started (3 weeks ago) but watching him run around on his own he seemed pretty sound. Farrier also left shoe wider at heels because the RF is somewhat contracted. Farrier described that foot as looking like a mule's foot. Next day after shoeing pony was slightly off at trot, but this maybe was because he no longer had pad on that foot. I gave him 1 gram bute yesterday and my daughter rode him for first time today. He seemed almost completely sound at trot--he had been head bobbing lame 3 weeks ago--but was still lame at canter. I am still hoping that this lameness is a result of too close trim 3 weeks ago, and he will continue to get better as foot grows out. I am concerned that this lameness could be a result of DDF strain due to heel being lowered, and maybe he should have a wedge pad to bring heel back up. Is there a way of knowing if that is the problem? Any insight would be appreciated.
Ellen

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Ellen,

The response is a little low on this, you're right. But hopefully your update will trigger more.

Here are some of my thoughts on this.

The RF is a little upright, likely caused by favouring the other foot. You see this a lot in horses. In most cases there is no lameness issue, but the fact that feet grow differently clearly shows that something is going on inside that foot.

When a foot grows a high heel, 10 to 1 the horse is troubled by something in the caudal part of it's foot. This really could be anything. It's inviting just to allow the foot to grow straight up, hoping this reduction of DDFT pull will eliminate the pain. Although it will reduce DDFT pull, you should realize the foot is also supposed to bear weight. The only way a horse can comfortably carry weight is when the coffin bone is properly positioned inside the hoof capsule. When feet are allowed to grow a lot of heel the coffin bone will rotate. This will put (inside) pressure on the anterior part of the sole (the part in front of the frog) where the apex of the coffin bone pushes down. Obviously this alone may be a source of pain. In most cases however pain only gets to be a problem when because of the pressure caused by the coffin bone the blood flow to the solar corium is restricted and sole growth reduced. The sole gets thinner.

To prevent this lowering of the heels to a normal (I prefer 'normal' to 'natural' here) height is important.

You're correct when you feel lowering of heels will increase DDFT pull. In this case it looks like the horse is trying to stay clear from the pain by allowing heel to grow, so lowering it contra indicated. This is not the right way of looking at things. The heels need to be lowered to keep the coffin bone positioned normally inside the hoofcapsule. The DDFT pull should be addressed in another way.

Another thing that is hard to understand but vital in the approach of all DDFT related hoof problems, is that lowering heels of a foot and bringing the angle back up by using wedges creates a totally different situation for a foot. 'A whole other ball game, in another league, in another decade'.

Lowering the hoofangle by 3 degrees, and shoeing that foot with a 3 degree pad, is NOT the same as leaving the foot untrimmed. This has to do with the heels being lowered when trimmed and thus creating a much longer support surface. Further the center of gravity is moved back by lowering heels.

If we look at your horse and its shoeing there are a view things that your shoer may want to consider. (This is NOT a demurral of the current shoeing by your shoer, just a view thoughts that may bring some ideas in his head that eventually could help your horse.)

First of all since we found there may well be some DDFT related problems going on with your horse, he might want to consider bringing back break over by squaring to toe of the shoes. If he's uncomfortable forging a square toe he may want to consider buying pre made square toed shoes.
Another thing you need to look at given the situation is the support of the caudal part of the foot. A horse's feet do not only bear weight when standing and being evaluated by a shoer, but also when loping or trotting, or what-ever-ing. In such situations the weight bearing foot is not straight under it's body, but points forward (just before landing) or backwards (just before breaking over) Those situations are completely different from the forces that act upon the foot and supporting structures when standing. For that reason adequate heel support is vital. I posted a type of shoe your shoer may would to consider.

I hope this helps a little Ellen.


Ronald Aalders

[kriskyl33]

Hi Ronald,

Thanks so much for your reply. From what I understand, you are suggesting that maybe he needs a wedge pad to bring the angle of that foot back up since he has had the heels trimmed. Would the farrier also wedge the other foot to give it a similar angle? The RF (problem foot) is still 2 degrees higher than the LF. Would we use a 2 degree wedge on RF and 5 degree on LF? Or leave LF alone since he doesn't seem to have any problem with it and just leave feet at different angles? Right now he is just going with the lower angle and seems to be getting better (original thought was that lameness was just caused by trimming too close), but he hasn't really been worked much and he has been on bute. I worry that when he starts working again, if the lameness is due to DDFT strain, he will go lame again. I don't want any permanent damage to occur. But I also am concerned about having shoes pulled and replaced again, he has had RF shoe renailed 3 times in 3 weeks. I don't want to rip his foot apart. Would it be wrong to see if he continues to improve as foot grows, and think about making additional changes (square toe, wedge pads) at next reset in 6 weeks. I will post pictures of new shoes, but the vet didn't recommend much change other than leaving them wider at heels to allow heel expansion. Thanks for your help--it is truly appreciated.

Ellen

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Ellen,

No I would not put a 5 degree on one foot and a 2 degree on another. Try and even out feet as much as you can. Maybe you don't even need wedges.

An experienced shoer could try his luck guessing if wedges are needed or not. (I sure have from time to time) If you want to know for certain you'll need properly taken lateral-medial X rays. What you're looking for is a straight line through P3 up to P1. Wedges may serve to raise heels if that's what's needed to get to that straight line.

You could do worse than to follow your vets advise here. Take it easy for a few week, talk through with both the vet and the shoer what the right approach could be.

If you have any questions, let us know.


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

I will respond, Very simple do not jump him. Horses like this can be injured very easy when they jump. Jumping is a hard sport even on a horse with ideal conditioning and conformation. There is always a toe first landing and when there is a conformational fault, the suspensorys take a beating. Trail ride him, do flat work take low level dressage lessons and have fun. If he is a safe pony for your daughter count your blessings. I see many ponys like this go lame and the primary reason is jumping. All this talk about special shoeing and balance, X-Rays are insignificant. Think about what is going on, we split hairs on balance and types of shoes and totaly take for granted the stress caused by jumping. This does not make sense to me. Another major significant impact on the horse is the rider there balance and hands and how well the rider communicates with the horse and gets them to move without tension and stress. Tension causes tighness in the muscles and this causes injury. One more thing is conditioning, like any athelete if they are not in good condition before they work or compete the chances of injury increase. The basics that all horsemen should learn is how to read conformation and disposistion of the horse, proper training, conditioning, cooling down and proper rideing and last but not least proper day to day care. All these things impact the health and well being of your horse. Shoeing is only one part, it is important and can make or break the horse but there is many other things to consider also. I also see many horses with poor conformation do very well, but most of the time it is a light child that is rideing them and they probably are only doing well because of that reason.

[kriskyl33]

Thank you for your response Phil. We do appreciate the fact that with his less than perfect conformation he will never be a great athlete. The jumping that we do with this pony is limited to cross rails and very low verticals. My daughter hasn't jumped him higher than 18" (maybe 2' once or twice) and she is only allowed to jump once a week during her lesson. He has only done a full course (18") twice in the last year. My daughter is also rather petite and weighs about 70 lbs. We have a trainer ride him once a week but she concentrates almost completely on ground work, and rarely jumps him. He is a 14/2 large pony (he needs to lose weight and I know that is working against any lamenes issue--but he is such an easy keeper it is very hard to get the weight off). When we had him vet checked pre-purchase, the vet did note his conformation issues but said for what we were going to use him for it probably wouldn't be an issue--and we told her he would be jumping--but just beginner stuff. He is such a great pony for a beginner learning to jump, and he is an incredible babysitter--he really watches out for his young riders. While I understand that jumping is hard on any horse or pony, and we would never ask him to do a 3' course (or even a 3' jump), I think he is capable of doing cross rails and 18"-2' jumps once a week, with an occasional full course of jumps at a show. I think he would encounter more than this on an average trail ride if he was a full time trail horse. By the way, my daughter does take him on the trails, and they both love it. He gets ridden 5 times a week (at least when he is sound), so he is fit enough to do what he is asked. He won't be asked to jump, or even canter, until this lameness issue is resolved--which I am hoping it will be with correct trimming and shoeing, but my daughter has started riding him again at the walk and trot because we want to maintain his fitness and he needs exercise to keep his weight under control. He is still a bit sore at the trot but he seems to work out of it. We'll see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Ellen

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Ellen it sounds like you understand his limitations and I hope your not expecting your Farrier to perform miricles. As I read your post I kept wondering if you were one of my clients. Sounds so familiar.

[caballus]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/PHOTOS/lamepony.html Good Morning. Shoes or no shoes I see some things that must be corrected before this pony is fully diagnosed with "Navicular". I say "fully diagnosed" as its obvious he already is exhibiting navicular issues/caudal pain issues.

A. This line represents the angle that the NEW HOOF GROWTH is exhibiting which also indicates the angle of the front of the coffin bone.

B. Represents the current angle trim of the hoof wall/toe.

The dotted line approximates how the P3 is positioned within the hoof capsule and you can see that it is elevated on the toe.

This horse is landing toe first on its P3 which is causes excessive concussion to the toe of the Coffin Bone which results in deterioration of the bone over time. As had been mentioned, the heels are long which is predisposing this toe-first landing thereby contributing to the damage to the toe.

The angle of the hoof being "off" from the natural/normal angle of the P2 is going to cause excessive strain to the joints which will cause arthritic issues not only in the P2/P3 junction but also further on up the leg towards the shoulder as it also directly affects the angle of the shoulder.

C. points to excessive "wave" in the hairline regardless of perspective of the photo. This indicates there is excessive pressure in the hoof capsule directly below it on a straight line which cause imbalances and strains. Much as if you were to be walking with a bump in the sole of your own hard shoe.

D. exhibits the length that the heel should be trimmed to in order to get the angle correct as well as to allow for proper frog contact/stimulation for shock dissipation and blood circulation. It would also bring the center of weight bearing back enough so as to balance the hoof with the horse.

I would also rocker the toe for a proper breakover. The slow breakover caused by the long toes will further exacerbate the damages being done to the hooves.

Of course, being a natural hoof advocate, I'd pull the shoes, trim up the hooves correctly so "nature" can heal this horse/these hooves and get the horse moving correctly according to its own natural balance and way of going. The way I see them as pictured I see 'Navicular' already strongly in the making. ESPECIALLY when viewing the hooves from the front as indicated in one of your photos.

Even so, shod or not, these hooves need balancing, leveling and correct trimming.

:) --Gwen

[kriskyl33]

Gwen,
Thanks so much for your reply. I am really interested in seeing your markup of the photo, but your link isn't working. I am concerned about breakover and this is one thing my vet initially talked about. But then after taking x-rays and not seeing any navicular changes, she didn't mention anything about moving back breakover to the farrier. She said the bone alignment was ok in the x-rays, but did say it was still slightly steep and recommended bringing the heels down a little bit more. But she didn't mention moving the breakover back. My concern is that this lameness issue (and I realize it is probably a more long term issue than I originally thought) has more to do with DDFT strain than actual navicular, and lowering the heels made it worse. (If you think they are high now, this is after a 2* lowering at last trim). I realize that this can be the case if breakover is not addressed at same time as lowering heels. But 3 different farriers and a vet have looked at him and no one has mentioned moving breakover back. When we bought this pony last year he had a high heel on the right and he had been barefoot for awhile. But he was also stall kept and hadn't been trimmed for some time. I am considering just removing shoes and keeping up with trimming and see what happens. Also, one more thing to note: when grazing he always keeps that RF back--which from what I am reading points to a shortened DDFT. He never points that foot which I think is more indicative of navicular. But both are chronic issues causing heel pain, so in the end does it matter? I know tendons don't stretch, so if DDFT is shortened, and we keep lowering heel, won't it put more strain on DDFT. Is moving back breakover enough to compensate for lower heel, or are shoes with wedges often needed to alleviate tension on the DDFT while heels are being lowered. I will try to get x-rays from vet and photograph them and post pictures. I want to get him balanced and comfortable now, before further damage is done. Thanks again to everyone that has posted. All your help is really appreciated.

Ellen

[caballus]

I'm sorry. I've been fighting with a new FTP and new webpage program all day!!! I'm about ready to tear my hair out. Anyhoo ... I think I've got the photo so it shows up. click on the link I gave you above again and refresh your browser.

--Gwen

[MysticRealm]

THis reminds me alot of what me and my horse have gone through except my horse seemed to go more lame on hard ground, and doesn't have a clubby foot.
Go to the following links to read about her story
First post (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=570)
I added some pics so not all of those are in order. So in the photoalbum pics 8-10 are her first times being farriered by new farrier.
pics 11 + 12 are of her after numerous months of being done by new farrier
Second Post (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=597)
Third Post (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613)
Fourth Post (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=623)
I don't know if this will help you at all but I thought I would post in case it does.

[Phil Armitage]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/PHOTOS/lamepony.html Good Morning. Shoes or no shoes I see some things that must be corrected before this pony is fully diagnosed with "Navicular". I say "fully diagnosed" as its obvious he already is exhibiting navicular issues/caudal pain issues.

A. This line represents the angle that the NEW HOOF GROWTH is exhibiting which also indicates the angle of the front of the coffin bone.

B. Represents the current angle trim of the hoof wall/toe.

The dotted line approximates how the P3 is positioned within the hoof capsule and you can see that it is elevated on the toe.

This horse is landing toe first on its P3 which is causes excessive concussion to the toe of the Coffin Bone which results in deterioration of the bone over time. As had been mentioned, the heels are long which is predisposing this toe-first landing thereby contributing to the damage to the toe.

The angle of the hoof being "off" from the natural/normal angle of the P2 is going to cause excessive strain to the joints which will cause arthritic issues not only in the P2/P3 junction but also further on up the leg towards the shoulder as it also directly affects the angle of the shoulder.

C. points to excessive "wave" in the hairline regardless of perspective of the photo. This indicates there is excessive pressure in the hoof capsule directly below it on a straight line which cause imbalances and strains. Much as if you were to be walking with a bump in the sole of your own hard shoe.

D. exhibits the length that the heel should be trimmed to in order to get the angle correct as well as to allow for proper frog contact/stimulation for shock dissipation and blood circulation. It would also bring the center of weight bearing back enough so as to balance the hoof with the horse.

I would also rocker the toe for a proper breakover. The slow breakover caused by the long toes will further exacerbate the damages being done to the hooves.

Of course, being a natural hoof advocate, I'd pull the shoes, trim up the hooves correctly so "nature" can heal this horse/these hooves and get the horse moving correctly according to its own natural balance and way of going. The way I see them as pictured I see 'Navicular' already strongly in the making. ESPECIALLY when viewing the hooves from the front as indicated in one of your photos.

Even so, shod or not, these hooves need balancing, leveling and correct trimming.

:) --Gwen

Hi Gwen, I agree with your markings and you did a nice job showing how the foot should be trimmed and a great explanation of balance. One thing to keep in mind is that shod or not the hoof care provider is more than likely doing just what you described at each shoeing and the feet typicly go out of balance after 4 to 6 weeks of growth some in less time by as much as what is shown in the photos. This is why horses should be on a regular schedule. I quess my point here is we need to be carefull about how we say things to the horse owner and not lead them to believe there current hoofcare provider is doing a bad job. There are many things that stress the joints tendons and ligaments. Regular hoof care shod or not is constant maintanance and the lack of it can lead to problems, however it is not a cure and will not prevent all problems that start to occur in joints, tendons and ligament over time due to conformation, work and age.

[kriskyl33]

Mystic Realm--
Thank you. I have been thinking that the problem with our pony is something to do with the DDFT. While he was slightly off before his last trim, he was headbobbing lame after the heel was lowered. I am thinking wedge pads with frog support and better breakover is the thing for him too. How is your horse doing now after 2 months in new shoes? Anymore lameness? Our pony seemed to get better, then was headbobbing lame again, then next day was much better--just a little short on RF. I lunged him that day for about 1 minute either direction at trot. Then he got his bute. That afternoon was headbobbing lame again. I don't know if that little bit of excercise set him off, or if he is doing something out in his paddock. He did have the pad removed last week and shoe reset without pad, so if it truly is sole soreness maybe that is why he is worse again. But he is never lame at walk, and walks over stone and gravel just fine. This is 4 weeks after original trim. You said injection of cortisone helped your horse for a couple months. Was the tendon injected or the joint. Did they do it at barn, or does horse have to go to clinic. Was horse put right back to work, or does horse have to have some time off? thanks for your info

Phil,

This pony has had good foot care since we have had him. He gets his shoes reset every 6 weeks. The last time he went 8 weeks but that was not my choice. At 6 weeks I put him up on the board to be done by farrier, but farrier apparently said shoes were on tight and he didn't really need reset yet. So he was done at next visit. For the last few resets, I had mentioned to trainer that it looked like farrier was leaving feet really long and she said she would mention it to him, but after each reset feet would still look long with high heel. So this last time I left a note expressing my concerns and noted that pony had had a couple episodes of mild lameness in previous few weeks. But I specifically wrote in my note to "do what you think is best"
because I am not a farrier and I didn't feel I should be telling farrier what to do. Well after that reset feet looked better to me--not so tall with a lot of heel, but he was headbobbing lame. The pictures were taken 1 1/2 weeks after that trim, so it is a pretty good representation of how he left them (except for the pad--that was added by a different farrier 1 week after original trim.) So as a horse owner I do know the importance of regular foot care, but since I have not been trained in the field, I was trusting the farrier to do a good job. Maybe he was, because pony did not go really lame until after he made the changes that I questioned him about. But I don't think he was doing that great a job because of all the issues caballus has mentioned about foot balance.

caballus--thank you for the markup on the foot. From what I understand you are suggesting bringing the heel down even more, then rolling the toe to improve breakover and ease tension on the DDFT. My vet did mention bringing heels down slightly more, but did not say anything about facilitating breakover. Farrier did trim a tiny bit more off heels when he reset shoes after x-rays, and pony is very lame again. Don't know if it is due to the additional heel trim, or the removal of pad, or the fact that my daughter rode him and trotted him for about 10 minutes (or a combination of all 3). I am still feeling that lameness is due to DDFT pull and he needs breakover addressed and probably wedge pads also--at least for awhile. When you note that new growth of foot is steeper than angle he is currently trimmed at--what does that mean? That new growth angle is probably very close to the angle he was at prior to this trim when farrier trimmed heel. According to farrier, he changed angle 2* by trimming more heel off that foot. Is that the angle this foot should be at? The more upright angle? Or are you saying that by trimming more heel and lowering angle even more, bone will shift to a lower angle within foot, and new growth will follow that new angle? I am a bit confused. Thanks again everyone for your help.
Ellen

[kriskyl33]

Ok I know I am posting too much but I do have 1 more thing to say. His "horrible" conformation keeps coming up so here is what vet wrote on pre-purchase exam:
Conformation--Slightly base narrrow in front. Toed out front feet (valgus deformity)--symmetrical and mild.
That is all she wrote regarding conformation.
So while I am aware of less than perfect conformation, its not like his legs are on backwards or upside down. ;)
We are not doing grand prix jumping or high level dressage. He is not galloping around barrels or spinning around in a reining class. He is being jumped but only low jumps and only once or twice a week. He is a wonderful pony that belongs to an 11 year old girl so she can have fun and learn to be a better rider. They are looking forward to a summer of trail riding and the occasional local schooling show. I am confident this lameness issue can be resolved enough so that they can enjoy these things together. That is why I am asking for all the advice that I can get.

Ellen

[caballus]

No, Krisky -- you're not writing too much. How else are we supposed to learn if we don't ask questions and discuss things? :)

Phil is absolutely correct about the care. I have a 4 week schedule worked out with my clients so I tend to their horses every 4 weeks on the same day of the month. That works well for their horses and for me - makes *my* job a whole lot easier cause I'm merely tweaking a bit instead of full blown trimming and reshaping. More importantly, though, it keeps the horse's hooves in good shape so they are able to perform at their best all times; they're not down in performance due to imbalances, too-long heels/toes/whatever. Again, tho - I don't shoe; I trim only. I also stress the importance of turn out for horses. In order for their hooves to stay at maximum levels of health and growth they need movement and lots of it.

Now, it was noticed by your vet that your horse stands toed-out. I'm noticing from the front view that you posted that the outside walls on both front hooves are longer than the inside walls. That will cause a horse to toe out. So, maybe you could request your trimmer/farrier to level off the bottoms of the hooves so they are symmetrical? I also notice that the RF is collasped at the bottom of the periople area. This also signifies imbalancing and that must be corrected. If you go to: http://www.thepenzancehorse.com and click on TRIM CHALLENGE, you'll see some pretty nice trimming and balanced hooves. (BTW, the next challenge is May 15th so if anyone reading this wants to submit photos of their trimmed hooves send to: caballus@charter.net OR naturalhoofcare@yahoo.com OR, take the challenge yourselves and guess which trim is who/which!) Compare those photos with your horses's hooves and you'll begin to be able to see the differences.

The breakover can be addressed with the rockering (not rolling the walls) the toes. Also, from the photos, I couldn't tell how long the walls of the hooves are. If they are longer than the sole then they are weight-bearing and need to be leveled down. Walls should not bear the weight of the horse all by themselves; they need to share the load with the rest of the sole callus.

The toes, as I said, are long but because they are trimmed rigth to the white line, its imperative to get the heels DOWN and the hooves landing toe first (fronts only) with the rockering in order to get the weight bearing and load bearing leverages back where they belong. The center of weight bearing right now is too far forward and this will stress the DDFT as well as the rest of the legs and on through the shoulders and back. So you may have a combination of soreness that has been a long time coming. It takes time to get it all back to its natural, normal state. With consistent care, balancing, trimming, etc. I usually find that the 4th month (beginning) of rehabilitative care is the golden one. All of a sudden, the gimpy out of balance, sore horse will be noted to be bucking and farting and racing around feeling great! (If they didn't start that with the first corrective trim).

My advice would be to pull the shoes and give the hooves and horse time to get back to its natural state the way the *individual* horse is requiring. As long as the horse is just a tiny bit gimpy, your daughter, being light, can ride lightly. The more movement the better. Not a whole lot of circles but trails, obstacles courses, (fun stuff! *G*) etc. on firm ground - not gravel or stones. Lay off the jumping until the hooves are healthy again. Again, the more movement, the better. The more correct hoof shape and form, the quicker the horse will rehabilitate.

*S* --Gwen

[caballus]

I am still feeling that lameness is due to DDFT pull and he needs breakover addressed and probably wedge pads also--at least for awhile. When you note that new growth of foot is steeper than angle he is currently trimmed at--what does that mean? That new growth angle is probably very close to the angle he was at prior to this trim when farrier trimmed heel. According to farrier, he changed angle 2* by trimming more heel off that foot. Is that the angle this foot should be at? The more upright angle? Or are you saying that by trimming more heel and lowering angle even more, bone will shift to a lower angle within foot, and new growth will follow that new angle? I am a bit confused. Thanks again everyone for your help.

Oops ... sorry. I didn't answer this above. Just got going on my rant. :p

Wedge pads will only put the heels more upright and the weight more on the toe. It will force the CB to be MORE on its toe edge ... the cir***flex artery runs right around the front of the toe and the more pressure on this the more damage is done due to the pressure cutting off the main blood supply from the artery. So, rockering the toe (the bottom) and taking the heels DOWN will bring the CB to be more ground parallel which is where you want the bottom of it to be - parallel with the ground.

The "new growth" as indicated by the periople area should dictate the trim. This is how the new hoof "wants" to grow. By bringing the heels down and maybe cleaning up the outside of the toe, the angle will fall into place which will then, domino effect, line up the P3, P2 and so on. Remember ... that new growth area at the periople/coronary is telling you where the front part of the CB is ... and the dotted line I drew up on the original shows how having the heels high is forcing the CB to be on its toe as stated above. See how it all works? Imagine walking on heels all day and all night - 24/7. Imagine what *your* feet would feel like and also *your* tendons and back and shoulders? Or, try walking toe first ... doesn't work too well, does it? ;) Now equate that with 1000# of horse putting 12,000# !!! of force upon landing from a 2' jump and see what ya got. OWIES!!!

--Gwen

[MysticRealm]

Mystic Realm--
Thank you. I have been thinking that the problem with our pony is something to do with the DDFT. While he was slightly off before his last trim, he was headbobbing lame after the heel was lowered. I am thinking wedge pads with frog support and better breakover is the thing for him too. How is your horse doing now after 2 months in new shoes? Anymore lameness? Our pony seemed to get better, then was headbobbing lame again, then next day was much better--just a little short on RF. I lunged him that day for about 1 minute either direction at trot. Then he got his bute. That afternoon was headbobbing lame again. I don't know if that little bit of excercise set him off, or if he is doing something out in his paddock. He did have the pad removed last week and shoe reset without pad, so if it truly is sole soreness maybe that is why he is worse again. But he is never lame at walk, and walks over stone and gravel just fine. This is 4 weeks after original trim. You said injection of cortisone helped your horse for a couple months. Was the tendon injected or the joint. Did they do it at barn, or does horse have to go to clinic. Was horse put right back to work, or does horse have to have some time off? thanks for your info

So far Markie is doing fabulous, we have been jumping 2'9" ish and she has shown no further signs so far of lameness, BUT that doesn't mean too much right now (though one trainer said that Markie looks sounder than ever) The thing is that Markie has never really been lame in winter due to the ground being softer, so I will not know 100% till we start riding outside more on hard summer ground.
I have talked to other vets about the shots Markie got and they said that they totally didn't believe a shot like that would help, but the thing is that you inject hocks with it and it helps. It needs to be redone to keep it active but I think it should help, it just needs to last longer than the 2 months that it did last. I am not sure exactly what was injected.

Also the new farrier changed how her feet hit the ground, they used to hit toe first not he changed it to heel first. We think that if the heel is constantly pounding on the ground that it would mess up things further up her leg as well. I will try to think of anyhting else I could tell you

[kriskyl33]

Okay one more question. Do we want the front feet to land toe first or slightly heel first? I thought heel first was desirable, but Gwen you say we want to achieve a toe first landing for the front feet. I'm not positive but I think he lands toe first already. I thought we were supposed to try to get that to a heel first landing. And Mystic Realm, you said your new farrier changed your horse from a toe first landing to a heel first landing, which I assumed was a good thing. But then you said you think if the heel is constantly pounding the ground it would mess up things further up the leg. But if you don't want the heel pounding the ground, why did your farrier switch her to a heel first landing?

Ellen

[caballus]

No, no, no! Where did I say you want a toe-first landing? You want a HEEL FIRST landing of the hooves in the front. That is what the rockering of the front feet will do ... help your horses to land heel first. You want the heel first landing as this is where all your shock absorption is ... the digital cushion, the frog, etc. If the hoof is landing toe first you've got the concussive shock running right up the front of the leg, damaging bone all the way up.

--Gwen

[kriskyl33]

Hi Gwen,

Post #24, paragraph 4:

"The toes, as I said, are long but because they are trimmed right to the white line, its imperative to get the heels DOWN and the hooves landing toe first (fronts only)..."

I thought you probably meant heel first but I just wanted to make sure. :)

Thanks,
Ellen

[caballus]

Achhhhhhhhhh!!! I'm so sorry! That is totally wrong and I have NO idea why I typed that. It SHOULD be ... HEELS, HEELS, HEELS, first!!!!


Godfry ... methinks I *do* need a vacation.

:( --gwen