Does this sound like a good plan?

[All Around Ammy]

Looking to bounce some ideas off of you folks.

I have a 22 year old mare that I've owned for 17+ years. She has been retired for about the past 5 years now, and just a pasture pet. Her daily routine consists of eating and going from stall to turnout.

She has picked up the lovely habit of pawing, both in the stall and during turnout, mostly to get what she wants (ie food quicker, be brought in quicker). In the process she has destroyed her front feet. You can see that it is painful for her to paw, yet she continues to do so. Now that it is summer, the ground if fairly hard, and she is doing more and more damage. This mare is a bit quirky (as a former farrier who sometimes frequents this board could attest to!), so getting after her does no good.

We are at just about 6 weeks post last trimming, and I'm not sure if there is much there to trim, but lots of broken up areas. I really don't want to put shoes on her. Since she has some age and arthritis issues, standing on 3 legs long enough for nails to be driven could be an issue.

So the question is, does investing in a pair of some type of boots that are suitable for constant wear make sense? Will they help prevent her from damaging her feet? I know that I could put pawing chains on her, but since she does it during turnout, I don't think that would be safe. Plus she is smart enough to know when they are on or not, and take advantage of when they are off. If boots are the way to go, suggestions as to brands would be appreciated.

I will obviously be discussing this with my farrier, who I trust without a doubt, but without talking to him first, I'm not sure how much experience he has with dealing with boots of any sort.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I'd suggest it might be better to retrain the horse and stop her from pawing.

What have you done so far to try to stop it?

[All Around Ammy]

Flame me if you want, but she is an older mare who is set in her ways. Not really interested in making her life miserable and getting after her the amount it would take to "retrain" her, just want to make her more comfortable. We've spent many years together, so I know what her triggers are, and what battles are worth fighting. This isn't one of them. If it comes down to it, shoes will go back on and we'll be done with it. Just wondering if some type of boots might fit the bill instead.

[All Around Ammy]

Thanks for the info on the boots. I've never used them before, so any feedback, like them not for 24 hour wear is greatly appreciated! At $90 for front shoes only every 6-7 weeks, the boots would pay for themselves if they lasted longer than that, which I hope that they would! That was my initial thought for considering them.

She currently goes out anywhere from 6 to 24 hours a day depending on the weather, has a turnout companion that she gets along with and gets to watch lots of activity in the barn. She lives at home, so we cater to her quirks to a point. Due to some physical issues, she isn't in any sort of work program, and adding one isn't really an option.

Anyways, we have an appointment set for early next week, so I'll see what our farrier has to say and go from there.

[Rick Burten]

Instead of kicking chains, you(your farrier) could try taking a pair of old horseshoes , narrowing/closing them up at the heels enough so that they can be slipping onto the leg above the fetlock and then drop down below the fetlock
and rest at the pastern level.

When she paws, the 'ring' will bang around and be uncomfortable. Doesn't cost much, if anything, and may be an effective way to get her to stop pawing.

Absent that, you could consider a toe tip shoe instead of a full shoe.

[Mark_Gough]

Thanks for the info on the boots. I've never used them before, so any feedback, like them not for 24 hour wear is greatly appreciated! At $90 for front shoes only every 6-7 weeks, the boots would pay for themselves if they lasted longer than that, which I hope that they would! That was my initial thought for considering them.

She currently goes out anywhere from 6 to 24 hours a day depending on the weather, has a turnout companion that she gets along with and gets to watch lots of activity in the barn. She lives at home, so we cater to her quirks to a point. Due to some physical issues, she isn't in any sort of work program, and adding one isn't really an option.

Anyways, we have an appointment set for early next week, so I'll see what our farrier has to say and go from there.

Hello Ammy,

Boots may work for your mare, but there a couple of points you may want to consider.

The typical cost for quality boots will set you back around $140-$170 bucks, depending on brand/type. Easyboot Epics and Renegades are top of the line and probably most popular.

The boots can last anywhere from 4 to 12 months depending on environment and use. You can add borium tipped studs to increase the life of the boot for a horse that paws.

Boots come with a lot of maintenance. Manufactures do not recommend leaving them on for more than 24 hours. What manufacturers are not clear about is how long to leave them off between sessions. I'd recommend 4-8 hours before reinstalling them.

When you remove them, you'll spend some time cleaning the horses feet and any dirt that is embedded in the hair around the pasterns. Some boots have 'gators' to help keep them on. Dirt will find it's way between the gators and the pastern and tends to grind into the hair/skin. You'll spend some time keeping everything clean.

You'll also want to install 1/2" pads in the boots to protect against concussion and provide proper sole/frog support and cushioning. Those pads wear out fast and cost about $12 bucks per pair. They've doubled in price in the last year alone.

Installing boots is a bit more painful than most manufacturers will lead you to believe. It will take you a few minutes per hoof to get a boot on. You'll have to commit to doing this every day.

If the horse paws a lot the risk of the boot coming off increases, particularly if you don't use a 'gator'.

Remember... just because your horse wears boots doesn't mean she won't need regular farrier care. You'll still need to have your farrier come out each 6 weeks and trim the hooves. Add that cost the purchase price of the boots plus replacment of the pads. Figure on replacing the pads about once every 2 weeks.

Shoes on the front will cost more annually, but the farrier puts them on and you don't have to do anything except pick out the feet for the next 6 weeks. Probably the best overall solution for you and the horse longterm.

A good trainer can solve a lot of equine related behavioral problems but there are three issues that present particular difficulty:

1. Cribbing
2. Stall weaving.
3. Chronic pawing.

Of the three, I never try to sell an owner on any notion that I can fix the first two without introducing serious environmental changes. You can't, unless you've got about 40+ acres of free range pasture at your disposal.

Chronic pawing is caused by either fixed behavior (think obsessive/compulsive) or external/internal stimuli (flies, food begging, discomfort, etc). If it's chronic, obsessive behavior the odds of a trainer fixing it are next to nil. If it's stimulus related, you have to figure what the cause is and remove/alter the stimulus.

Ricks idea of wrapping a loose shoe around the pastern might help. Works like chains but the shoe is heavier and more 'annoying' to the horse. Just make sure there's nothing the horse can 'snag' that shoe on (e.g. wire fence, etc).

Longterm, after the loose shoe is removed, don't be surpirsed if the behavior returns. Horses are pretty quick to figure out when the 'deterrent' has been removed.

Good luck!

Mark

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Flame me if you want, but she is an older mare who is set in her ways. I wasn't going to "flame you". Its entirely up to you what you decide to do with your horse. But it seems odd to me as a trainer that you're content to let her do something that is causing her pain and discomfort and seeking a solution with such as boots rather than addressing the root cause.

IMO if you put boots on her then you just increase the risk of thrush etc because boots aren't meant for 24/7 use.

Not really interested in making her life miserable Why would do you think her life would be miserable if you trained her to stop pawing and kicking? You've said she's in pain now.

Stop the habitual learned response pawing behaviour and she won't be.

and getting after her the amount it would take to "retrain" her I don't know what you've tried yourself already as you never answered my question. Neither do I know what you've been advised would be needed or how much it would cost. However as a trainer I know its not that difficult to stop whether its long term behavioural or a conditioned response and by example I've a Highland pony and a Welsh Section C here now for training and both of whom happened to paw, the Welsh C windsucks too!. Though I never knew that before they arrived! (funny how owners either accept this sort of thing, or else don't see fit to mention it!)

Suffice it to say that neither paw now and it was stopped before they'd been here 2 weeks.

We've spent many years together, so I know what her triggers are, and what battles are worth fighting. Personally speaking I don't think horse training is or should be a battle or a fight. Do that and you have a winner and a loser and that isn't what I personally look to achieve.

If it comes down to it, shoes will go back on and we'll be done with it. Just wondering if some type of boots might fit the bill instead. Fair enough. If you want suggestions to stop the root cause and for training then let me know what you've already done and I'll try to recommend things from there.

[cynthia-jay]

Have you considered stall toys?

The jolly ball or the stall snack that hang and several others are avaviable

Sometimes old tires in the pasture or stall will also distract them from pawing and are usually harmless, stick treats to the inside for her to have to work at getting

if she is alone, a companion can also provide company, as a pony or goat

I would not reward bad behavior with positive re-enforcement

vices and bad habits usually have an underlying cause

she sounds board and demanding

best of luck

as always

Jay

[khfs]

Instead of kicking chains, you(your farrier) could try taking a pair of old horseshoes , narrowing/closing them up at the heels enough so that they can be slipping onto the leg above the fetlock and then drop down below the fetlock
and rest at the pastern level.

When she paws, the 'ring' will bang around and be uncomfortable. Doesn't cost much, if anything, and may be an effective way to get her to stop pawing.

These are great for stall kickers and could work for your mare. We call them kicking shoes. An inexpensive option that'd be worth a try.

[Gary_Miller]

She has picked up the lovely habit of pawing, both in the stall and during turnout, mostly to get what she wants (ie food quicker, be brought in quicker). You have conditioned/thought this horse that pawing is what she needs to do to get something. Its like my dog I thought him to go to the door and bark when he wants out/in. It was thought as part of his potty training.

If you want this horse to stop pawing you need to retrain the horse. I would suggest because the horse is retired that you just leave her out 24/7. If possable leave the gate open so she can come into the stall anytime she wants. If thats not possable then just leave her out. Start feeding her at diffrent times than usual and if she paws when your feeding then don't feed her at that time. Come back later and feed when she don't expect it.

In the process she has destroyed her front feet. You can see that it is painful for her to paw, yet she continues to do so.Since shes retired I don't think I would worry to much. If it gets to painful she will stop. If your giving her something because you think shes in pain STOP.


One other thing you could use is an electronoic training collar. These are remote control so you can get after the horse when they are doing something undesirable without the horse knowing its you.

Go here to check it out. http://www.tritronics.com/remotetrainers-vicebreakerH2.html

I know that this may not be what you wanted to hear but this is a condtioned problem that needs corrected. Shoes or boots will just cover up the problem and not stop it.

[Kaydence]

A friend of mine was telling me about a mare she sold who was a very established windsucker. My friend just accepted it and didn't try to change it. When she sold the mare, she let the buyer know of the issue (not that it could have been hidden anyway. The mare would use anything she could find). The buyer wasn't concerned about it. A couple of months later my friend and the buyer ran into eachother at a show and the mare was quietly standing in the trailer. My friend couldn't believe it. The buyer said it took her almost a month to retrain the mare but it was 100% effective and didn't involve any punishment, just re-establishing life for the mare. It did take a significant commitment by the owner in that time as everything the mare could possibly suck on was removed, including water buckets and the owner would bring the buckets in to offer the mare a drink every hour or two and then immediately take it out. I don't know all the details but I do know that one month of commitment to a fantastic idea prevented this mare years of misery and increased health issues.

While you may feel you've tried everything you can think of, it is in the horses best interest to politely listen to other ideas on the off chance someone can give you an idea that will work and your horses quality of life can be increased. I know how I stopped my bratty little shetland from pawing but she was an easy one to break of the habit so I wouldn't think my ideas would work with your fella but Thomas may very well have some great ideas that will work. They may involve you having to change your habits which, in my experience, is far harder than changing the horses. :)

As for the boots, like Mark outlined, since they are not for 24/7 use and if properly fitted can be a bear to put on and take off, all the other little issues with them start to add up. Also, as Mark mentioned, you need to provide some form of frog support when using them long stretches of time and those pads should be replaced fairly often as they wear. I love boots for my weekend riding clients but other applications for them tend to be limited by their impracticality.

The disadvantage with shoes on a horse like this is that all that pounding and wear is going to play havoc on the clinches and loose shoes should be expected, forcing a shorter shoeing interval than usual so yes, you're still into more money.

And the biggest thing, neither boots nor shoes are stopping the excess wear on those limbs from all the pawing. Personally, I'd love to hear some of your training ideas for this type of situation Thomas, if you are willing to share your trade secrets. :) While I don't have any in my herd who are causing me grief right now, I've a nasty habit of picking up new horses and I'm always happy to have ideas on how to deal with new issues as they arise.

Cheri

[Kaydence]

Start feeding her at diffrent times than usual and if she paws when your feeding then don't feed her at that time. Come back later and feed when she don't expect it.

This is basically all I did with the shetland and it didn't take that clever little beast long to figure out that if she really wants something, the quickest way to get it is to stand still. I simply grained the quietest horse first and she missed a few meals because of it. I made a point of not feeding her first for a very long time as well. Now that she doesn't do it any more, I feed whoever is standing in the most convenient spot but she is always a little lady while she waits.

I suspect this method alone wouldn't work with a very established pawer though. And I also suspect that most owners wouldn't have the willpower to do it as friends of mine were a bit bothered by me not catering to the pony when she was carrying on. That is why I'm interested in hearing further ideas from Thomas.

My horses do have hay or grass in front of them about 20 hours a day though so there was never a hunger issue when I had the pawing. It was pure bad behaviour.

Cheri