Glucosamine and metabolic horses,really,really scary.

[calshoer]

I was spending the late afternoon researching more into Glucosamine and it's possible effects on insulin levels. I decided to do some looking because so many of my clients either had their first bout of laminitis shortly after being placed on it, or when their dose was increased. This non scientific observation of mine was referenced Matt Frederick's laminitis field study some years ago but I never really followed up to dig more.

Well, (Google is a wonderful thing) it turns out it is well known in the human medicine research community that glucosamine infusions induce insulin resistance, and in fact is used to create insulin rsistance in experiments. :eek:
In fact I found dozens of studies where they were trying to find out just exactly HOW it does that but they still don't know for sure.
Even though it is a carbohydrate (sort of) it acts differently than long term overloads of carbs on the body. But the thing is, it DOES cause insulin resistance acording to all those studies.
From all I could understand, glucosamine didn't increase blood insulin levels like I though it might, but rather it inhibited glucose uptake into the cells.
So my question to the whole horse world is...(and especialy the supplement companies making millions of dollars) WHY feed it to young healthy horses who probably make enough in their own bodies all by themselves??
It seems dangerous for the long term unless some good long term horse studies are done to prove otherwise. (Dr's here? any takers? ). .
And maybe, just maybe, the fad of feeding glucosamine to just about everything including US is one of the reasons (besides sweet feeds and high carb hays) behind the epidemic of insulin resistant horse nowadays???
I don't take it anyway because there is so much diabetes in my own family, and I sure would not be pouring it into my animals either unless I knew for sure they were naturally deficient , which according to what I can find usually wouldn't happen until they get older.
Food for thought. Patty

[Derin Foor]

Patty,

do you see any pattern (age, ***, breed, etc) with the horses you see this insulin resistance in?

thanks for the info

Derin

[calshoer]

Most practitioners who do a lot of them, including me, see the majority first having symptoms in the mid to late teens(seventeen seems to be the magic number) but there are some as young as eight or nine. They all of a sudden get "lumpy" fat pads and puffiness around the eyes.Those horses are likely at risk for laminitis.(Dr Kellon at the yahoo discussion gruop goes over all this).
In my own experience those who usually present with laminits when much younger are the breeds that Matt Frederick already identified as the most common in his study area (Northern Cal) .Those are the Peruvian pasos, Paso fino, Morgans, and Arabians. Here in Colorado it is the same, but I also see more Tennessee walkers and Foxtrotters, and fewer arabians but I hink that may be jusy demographics. Matt also identified definite family line tendency in one big morgan farm, the same thing thast is noticed for diabetes in human familiess.
Patty

[jlthompson]

Patty,

This truly is scary. I am wondering if Adequan injections (IM or IA) would be a safer way to aid joint lubrication, or if it would still pose the same potential risk?

Was also wondering about hyaluronic acid - either injections (Legend) or the new oral gels or powders...

Hope it's okay for me to post here..I'm not a farrier. :eek:

Jennifer

[calshoer]

I won't say there even IS a risk for sure, because I am neither a veterinarian nor a researcher. I just FIND the research. (I have no life)
But from what I have seen in person with occasional laminitic crashes when a horse was started on glucosamine, or the occasional crashes when a horse already on it was increased, I would sure recommend discussing this in depth with the attending veterinarian before I began giving it. And arm yourself with scientific information to back up your concerns. . If you keyword in glucosamine and insulin (together) in Google you should find a lot. Thats where I found a bunch .

I have had concerns for as longas Ihave been shoeignj laminitic horses, because I have personally seen laminitic attacks that were seemingly associated with Glucosamine, due to the timing of it's addition to the diet. Certainly not a lot of them, but enough to cause concern.
I have also asked my new clients with laminitic horses the history, including what changes they have made in the diet the week or two prior and sometimes (not always) glucosamine pops up.
An example was my OWN 29 year old QH gelding who had his first and only bout with laminitis when the caretaker added glucosamine to his diet at the same time she increased his equine senior. (so I don't know which was the trigger for sure)
I Got him completely off both immediately, into syrofoam for a week and he recovered without bone rotation. sinking or other visible damage.
Ihad the vet pul blood immediately, and his thyroid was fine but his cortosol and glucose were both high. Went right back to normal when checked later.

One secret to his recovery was that my horse was caught and treated in the very first couple of HOURS he showed symptoms,which can make all the difference. Wait 24 hours to treat and the odds go way, way down. Ihada tbstallion woh got laminitis on Black Walnut chavings, also treated within two hours, and he to orecovered with NO damage. No bone sinking, no rotation,no change in growth pattern later. That two for two in my own horses, not because ofany sopecial farier skill, but because I got to them EARLY.

Which brings me to another related topic and pet peeve...Horse owners need to be more educated as to how BIG of an emergency laminitis IS. (And sadly some veterinarians, too). I know people who have first called me, when AIhear the symptoms I tell them to immediately call the vet , and they call me back and say the vet said he would be out the next morning.FAR too late to do the treatment when it is most effective.

For the best chance of minimal damage and successful recovery, laminitis MUST be treated in the first stages,within hours, not the next day. I recomend the owners tape ANYTHING they have that can help support the frog and sole to the bottom of the feet even before the vet or I get there. It can make all the difference later. Carpret s****s, a full roll of gauze on the frog, or cut up your kid's styrofoam boogey board, or plain old white styrofoam packing material, ( just more layers) ,gardeners knee pads,anything dense but a bit yeilding. You name it. It may save that horses life.
Sorry for the rant but I just recently had another call for a mare, laminitic for WEEKS and they wondered why she was walking funny. :mad: That's the attitude in a rural area for you.
Patty

[Donnie Walker]

I have four of my own horses on 20% systemic glucosamine (IV), 10cc every 10 days and many of my clients are on the same program. Two of my four have joint issues while the other two are just on a supplemental preventive maintenance program. Ages are 8, 13, 13 and 29. Two years now with no adverse affects with blood work performed on the three younger ones each year. Levels are normal. I started this program on the advice of a DVM, PhD researcher, at a major university, who has implemented this in dozens of cases over the past several years. We just discussed the issues you mentioned. No problems have ever surfaced relative to the horses on this program and no immediate materials addressing the effects on insulin can be found. If you do find something please let me know and I will pass it on.

[Ronald Aalders]

I'm on glucosamine (and chondroitin) myself for 3 years now, dramatically reducing sacro-illiac problems I had.

I would like to know what there is to know on the relation between insuline/blood sugar levels and glucosamine intake.

O and maybe that knowledge may come in handy on some laminitic horses too! :D


Ronald Aalders

[tipptoez]

Sorry, not a farrier but had to reply. We just had this discussion recently on the IR/Cushings board.

The IV use of glucosamine has been linked to laminitic flares in some of the horses on that list.

The end result of our discussion, was that glucosamine *MIGHT* (big emphasis on this word) worsen insulin resistance because it is a regulatory molecule within cells that signals they are "sugar full" and not to uptake anymore. Since IR horses can range from mildly to markedly insulin resistant not every horse will have the same reaction to glucosamine (same is true for NSC amount tolerated or whether or not they tolerate alfalfa etc).

Recommendation was to be aware of this and use caution when administering glucosamine to IR horses. Hylaronic acid was given as possibly a "safer" alternative for IR horses with joint problems.

Denise