help with lameness

[MOMK9875]

My daughter has an 8 year old paint mare she bought 2 years ago to use for 4-H. Star has always been very calm and gentle for the most part. The people we bought her from were into rodeo and said they were selling her because she was "lazy". I had both my farrier and my vet look at her before buying, and we rode her around quite a bit. She seemed sound and so we bought her along with her 3 month old filly. My daughter is only 11 yo and so she does not ride Star hard. She only does walk/trot, does very little gymkhana, and no jumping. Almost immediately upon showing her in 4-H I started noticing that Star was bobbing her head at the trot. In addition to this, when my daughter started to try to work her at a canter, we found that she would do well on the right lead for a short period of time; wouldn't pick up the left lead; and then would get very grumpy if asked to continue cantering at all (rearing and spinning). A couple of times I've had people who are farriers come up to me and ask to take a look at her feet when we've been at shows. They tell me she looks like she's gimping slightly, but when they look at her feet they can see nothing wrong with her hooves or the trimming. I have started continuously watching her and checking both her hooves and joints for pain and flexion both before, during and after excersize. She NEVER flinches. Finally I took her to a trainer who I trust. The trainer and her partner both said she's "dead *** lame". They further suggested that it might be navicular and that I should have my farrier try egg bar shoes on her. I have always kept my horses barefoot since we are on fairly sandy soil here and we don't road ride much if any. I've also seen quite a bit of damage that shoeing does over the long term. Before starting to spend lots of money on x-rays and such (which we really can't afford at this time) and putting shoes on her (which I'm not crazy about doing), I thought I would start with some front hoof boots to see if that relieves any pain or changes her gaits at all. I would like to treat this like fixing a light that won't work: start with the least expensive, least destructive possible fixes first. Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions for me?

MOMK
Star's Grandma

[MOMK9875]

I have attached a photo of Star at the trot, zooming in to her front hooves. She is noticably toeing down.

[Rightstep]

Landing toe first is a sign that the heels and frog are sore. Does this pony have any thrush? Can you get a sole shot of the hooves? Looks like the heels are very long but it is hard to tell.

[Eric Russell]

The most cost effective would probably be to have the vet out and explain your financial situation. Seeing a lame horse, taking a wild guess its navicular and having a farrier throw eggbars on would not be cost effective.;)

[calshoer]

Landing THAT toe first, I would be fearful to allow anyone on her. This is a candidate for a good, hard stumble that can injure your daughter. Basically uou need a diagnosis to see what neds to be fixed. Usually that kind of movement is NOT something as simple as the hooves just from needing protection. In fact sometimes it's not even in the hooves.

I have a question...does she only do this under saddle? And if so , do you have a picture of this pony saddled up? I will tell you why after I see it.

As to slapping egg bar shoes on it, that is not the answer. You can not treat the cause if you dont know what the cause IS. "Navicular syndrome" intails a wide range of problems inside that part of the foot, and is NOT actually healed with egg bars.
Though they may offer temporary relief, they usually end up causing even more heel pain problems. Most of these issues come initially begin with subtle hoof imbalance.
Once any hoof imlbalance is identified and corrected by proper trimming, there are methods to shoe the horse which actually help treat and heal the issues rather than offer temporary relief. (IF this is even in her feet)

One set of hoof boots is probably going to cost you more than as a good therapeutic shoeing, and probably will not relive this.
With her Landing THAT toe first, add boots to it and she may fall on her face as she catches the toe of the boot in the dirt.
Shoes, customized to treat the diagnosed problem, can do a whole bunch more than boots (and a lot faster) to fix the mechanics that are causing the lameness.
Unfortunately these kinds of problems do cost money, and that is the downside to horse ownership.

[MOMK9875]

Ok, Patty,
I've attached the same picture but without it zoomed in to the hooves. This shows Star saddled up with my daughter showing her. So far I have only noticed this under saddle. My farrier is coming out tommorrow to take a look at her hooves. He says he will test her with the "knife taped to the hoof" trick and see how she does. I have checked her hooves for thrush and see no sign of it. Will try to get pictures of the hooves ASAP (probably tommorrow).

Kim

[calshoer]

OK here is the probable answer.
It is not her feet. Its probably the saddle .

That saddle *clearly* does not fit the horse.
See how the back of the saddle is up off her back? That means that the saddle is pivoting on two points right behind her withers as you cinch it down. because those those two points are getting pinched right behind her withers she is unable to move the top of her shoulder blade back far enough to get her leg forward.As well the cinch sets too far forward, interfering with her elbows.
Try this..go to the horse, and gently squeeze her behind er withers. I'll bet she tries to bite your head off or at least objects. (watch out!)
If so, there's your anwser. Right behind her withers. Unfortunately there is NO way to get a saddle that does this to fit that horse, no special pads, nothing. . You need another one and since there are many factors to correctly fitting a saddle, you need some experienced help in that department.
Patty

[lonestar]

Thats a long shot with the saddle fit.

[calshoer]

Not really..it is more common than you would think given the particular history and scenario, esopecially the part that shehas only been observed doing it only under saddle. AND that it only began when the girl began showing....(new show saddle at that time perhaps, too? )Just look at the picture it is clear the saddle does not fit and that is way more comko0n source of shortness, toe dragging and reluctance to perform that you would ever imagine.

I have actually owned a horse who would get a muscle spasm behind his right wither , a corresaponding one in the left hip, and as a result DRAGGED his right foreleg in response. I mean dragged. The vet even made me a bet (he lost) that the horse had BROKEN his knee, and paid up when the knee turned out to be fine. It was all muscle issues. Fixed with saddle change, massage and lazer therapy.

[Kaydence]

Given the history and the photo showing a saddle that clearly doesn't fit the mare, why would you think it was a long shot with saddle fit? She's given a number of farriers the opportunity to tear apart the farrier work as well as a vet and they haven't been able to. Seems like a pretty simple test that Patty recommended.

I've got to say, I picked up a really nice horse, far out of my price range when the owner wouldn't listen to me about having his back pain dealt with. My 11 year old daughters and my hubby who is a beginner rider do awfully nice on this very patient, formerly rogue horse. First I got his teeth done by an equine dentist (they were so bad and had only been done 6 months earlier by a vet with no upgrading), then I gave him some time off with body work and when I started him back under saddle I put him in a tree two sizes wider than he had been in.

Now, if the OP evaluates the horses back (the reaction should be obvious if the horse is sore so you don't really need someone selling snake oil to help ya out with testing the horse) and has someone good help her with saddle fit and there is still a problem, then she has to keep looking and not get caught up with thinking it is just a back problem but right now, it appears there are more options than just a hoof problem.

Cheri

[MOMK9875]

Cheri and Patty,

I think you two may be on to something! Had the farrier out today. We lounged Star (no saddle) at both the trot and walk (both ways)--virtually no gimp, no head bobbing and landing flat. After trimming the hooves he taped the knife to her hooves (one at a time), made sure she put weight on it for about 30 seconds then removed the knife and walked her forward--no reaction what-so-ever! Then he did a pressure test on her frogs, again no reaction at all: not even a twitch of the ear. We have a cement floor barn that our horses freely go in and out of, we do have thin (1/16th inch) rubber mats for traction. When Star is waiting for her feed she tends to paw the cement floor with her front toes. My farrier has always noticed excessive wear on her front toes (he calls it stub toe). So he trimmed her hooves and recommended a slightly shorter time between trimmings (every 5 weeks instead of 6-8) so that we can hopefully get the front hooves wearing more evenly. He suggested putting sand or thicker pads on the barn floor to take a little pressure off the hooves. He also said that we could try "flip-flop" pads and shoes if she didn't seem any better with saddle fitting and frequent trimming. He said he didn't think boots were a good idea, in agreement with Patty.

Ok, so after the farrier left we saddled up Star and my daughter rode. Started off with NO problems, not the slightest gimp and coming down flat, but after about 20 minutes trotting on and off the gimp started and became more and more noticeable (but toeing did not start). Changed the saddle (to an english), the gimp eased a bit. Put the western back on, gimp returns. This time instead of removing the saddle, I placed a 1/2 foam pad under the saddle only at the withers and moved the saddle about 2 inches forward up the withers. I also left the cinch one hole looser than it had been (but not enough for the saddle to slide). Again the gimp was noticably lessened. After about a 1/2 hour of riding the gimp did not noticeably increase and she never started toeing. We removed her tack and checked her hooves both visually and by placing pressure on the heel and frog, still no reation at all. When we turned her out though, there was a noticeable gimp for about 10 minutes which gradually seemed to ease with movement.

I'm thinking that navicular is NOT the diagnosis. If proper saddle fitting and more frequent hoof trimmings does not completely reverse the problem, I'm thinking back or knee; possibly some form of arthritis? Which wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities since she was on hard cement all winter when she wanted to be out of the elements.

For right now, I'm going to keep her on a light excersize routine, doing more lounging than riding and work on getting a proper saddle fit for her. Unfortunately, that seems to be one of the more expensive fixes. :(

Kim

[calshoer]

Most reputable consignment and used sadde shops will allow you to take a saddle home with a hold on the payment for 24 to 48 hours in order to try the fit on the horse. They know the only way to properly fit one is to try it on the horse. Then when you finally find the right one, sell the other one to help recoup the cost of the new one.
That should help keep your cost down.

[high performance shoeing]

That's a long shot with the saddle fit.

[calshoer]

That's a long shot with the saddle fit. No. I have studied saddle fitting a bit , and its not a longshot.I really don't know why either of you think it is, given the obvious in the picture. And especially now, given the results of the farrier's (and other's) hands on evaluation of the feet, it's pretty obvious to be a big factor in this one, maybe even the primary issue. Perhaps you need to do some study in the upper body anatomy and saddles.

MANY saddles, (and/or where they are placed on the horses back) cause stumbling and lameness issues.
I have one *entire herd* with one lower level hunter trainer's, and ALL her horses and ponies (all different breeds and ages, about 8 of them) drag their hind toes off, without exception, and ALL her students ride with their english saddles jammed up against the horses scapulas....set way too far forward.
If the horse can't move the top of his scapula back comfortably, he cannot possibly reach his foreleg forward enough.
And I have had a few clients who suddenly ,after years of a totally sound horse complain of stumbling with no change in the shoeing, and when queried about any change in saddle had just gotten a new one. When checked, that new saddle did not fit the horse.
There is a LOT of importance to correct saddle fit .
Or would you rather the farrier get blamed when its not even a foot issue ?

[Kaydence]

That's a long shot with the saddle fit.


I'm waiting for all the other outstanding suggestions on what might be going on, given the history as presented, so this owner can come up with other ideas to look in if she doesn't find the answer she is looking for through saddle fit. If saddle fit is such a long shot, what are the easy answers? I'm sure this owner would be willing to investigate further if others were offering more possibilities. Doesn't sound like her vet or farrier are coming up with recommendations for further diagnosis.

Cheri

[red_hush21]

OK here is the probable answer.
It is not her feet. Its probably the saddle .

That saddle *clearly* does not fit the horse.
See how the back of the saddle is up off her back? That means that the saddle is pivoting on two points right behind her withers as you cinch it down. because those those two points are getting pinched right behind her withers she is unable to move the top of her shoulder blade back far enough to get her leg forward.As well the cinch sets too far forward, interfering with her elbows.
Try this..go to the horse, and gently squeeze her behind er withers. I'll bet she tries to bite your head off or at least objects. (watch out!)
If so, there's your anwser. Right behind her withers. Unfortunately there is NO way to get a saddle that does this to fit that horse, no special pads, nothing. . You need another one and since there are many factors to correctly fitting a saddle, you need some experienced help in that department.
Patty


Being a saddle fitter - i agree the saddle is too big. Too long and too wide.
You need a semi-Qhorse tree idealy and Arab version wich is much shorten that the regular Qhorse bars. What Patty makes a lot of sens i have seen many horses do this.

Does she do this without tack as well ?

To try it out, borrow a saddle that is less long, like a barrel saddle. You should see a big difference if that is the problem.

I am not a farrier - although at times i WISH i was !!!!

[red_hush21]

Last point of contact posing pressure on the back ( not skirt ) should not be further than the last set of ribs. Skirt should come at least 6 inches before the tip of the hip.

Also, notice how the saddle is big for the rider ? She must float in that saddle. Try a smaller seat as well. Something like a 13' for a kid is great.

[MOMK9875]

Thanks Red and Patty,

Actually Red, that IS a 13" saddle. Star is only 14.3 hands and my daughter is very small for her age. I have her old pony saddle which is a 12" cordura model (still fits the child) that we bought for her old hackney pony; might give that one a try for a while and see if there is a noticeable difference. Also, the saddle in the picture is only a year old so I may see if I can do a trade in type thing to try to get a saddle that fits the horse better.

I'll take Patty's advice on finding a saddle to fit better. I'm not a vet but it stands to reason that, after eliminating any hoof pain and observing no leg swelling or wear spots, there may be some underlying arthritis or back pain if the saddle doesn't completely correct the situation. Since the horse is NOT in constant or unrelenting pain when not under the saddle, and actually runs and plays in the pasture without any sign of distress, I feel it is better to start with the saddle issue. If the problem is not totally rectified with that, then I will definitely be calling in the vet to start doing x-rays etc.

Star is a very young horse (only 8) and she and my daughter are very attached. I have NO desire to do anything which might in the end cause further problems. To my mind, going into shoes because of a problem that is probably not even related to the hooves or legs is just asking for more problems down the road. And calling in a vet when a simple tack change and more timely trimming can correct the problem is just a waste of time and money.

If the light goes out, change the bulb before replacing the fixture. The good old KISS principle.:)

[MOMK9875]

Thank you Cheri,

I agree with you. There are a couple of people who seem to think the saddle fit is a "long shot" but they don't seem to offer any other possibilities.

Please, by all means, if you think the saddle fit is a long shot, give me another possibility. I am NOT a farrier, a vet or even what I would call a horse "expert". I came to this web-site to ask questions and be provided with some real possibilities. I believe in doing research and asking questions. I don't take myself to a doctor and just "accept" that he will always be right; so why should I give my horses any less attention? Yes, I would like to find an inexpensive way to make things better, but mainly I'm trying to calmly address what my trainer considered "dead-*** lame". I'm not just going to take her "diagnosis" and put my daughter's horse down or sell her to some unsuspecting soul. We don't have a lot of extra money laying around, but I will do the best I can to try to help figure out Star's problem and correct it ASAP.

[red_hush21]

It's not a long shot if the horse is only lame when tacked. If she does fine without the saddle and without the rider, it's most likely the saddle or a back issue. If she does OK with the same rider AND a different saddle - then you know for sure it's the saddle. I think if it was her feet ( and this is only an opinion ) she would be lame most of the time and landing toe first with or without a saddle on.

Try her with a small jump saddle ( that is the correct width )
Did she do this with the other saddle you had ?