Difficult to trim!

[HOSSBOSS]

This horse i'm workin on is soo... difficult to just get a simple trim. NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
First off this horse was diagnosed with a hoof abcess, then the vet said it wasn't that at all & said that it had to be some tendon/ligament tear.
The vet has not really done any testing, but rather a verbal diagnoses to the owner.
We tried & tried & tried again to trim the long feet, but there was no way the horse would let us. The more i picked up the fronts, she fought back with avengance!!! Pulling & snapping the lead rope, then running off.
I feel that it's a huge combination of (maybe?) her being sore, but also a BIG lack of training & spoiling. I told the owner that i'm NOT triming her until the vet comes to sadate her because that will be the ONLY way to get her done.
But the owner insists that it's her leg!! So... what should i do? Have any of you worked on a leg lame horse? Is sadation the answer for this one?
The horse has had alot of down time without work.

[dave murray]

all you can do is get the vet to give it some domosodan and then try to trim it . sometimes even tranked you won't be able to trim it. be careful not worth getting hurt over some horse the owner is unwilling to train or have trained. if it is a pain problem the vet can give it some torbogesic with the domosodan that usually does the trick. again be careful even tranked they can still kick your head off. i got a new toolbox a few years ago thanks to a tranked horse that kicked my old one down the shedrow and in a millon peices. but i like my new box anyway. good luck.

[calshoer]

Why on earth did you have a horse tied up (pulling and snapping the lead rope) , when it was already objecting to what you were doing???
Tying the horse is NOT EVER going to help if he is bad with his feet. The horse needs a HANDLER.
There are simple, humane ways to school horses in hand on the lead rope, if you (or the handler) know what you are doing.
If you don't know how, or don't want to, or the owner is not willing to let you or pay you for the added time, then dont do the horse.
But next timeyou get one like this, do NOt tie it up!!
Often you can get around them much easier when they are held/handled by someone who knows what the heck they are doing. Or with the rope in your back pocket ,after you have just backed them up a bit asked them to move their feet for you in small circles and yeilded to you. There is timing and technique involved.
If you dont know these simple horsemanship skills, you should take a course from someone, because you are going to find yourself in this kind of pickle much too often. '
Aside from that, I agree with the other option for this horse, the vet and dormosedan, and NO tying.

[high performance shoeing]

Be nice Patty.

[HOSSBOSS]

I did not tie this horse, the owner did! I was in the middle of trying to get hold of her feet, when all of a sudden BAM it happened. Yes ****** owner!
I always have people hold their horses, but in this case the guy thought he knew better when i wasn't paying attention.
I always say that: I can train the horse, but NOT the owner!! Some folks just don't get it.

[calshoer]

OK, then that's when you take the end of the lead rope that is still fastened to the hitch rack, carefully untie it ,coil it up and whack the owner across the noggin with it. :)

At any rate...on a serious note , when I have an owner who is holding a horse that is dancing around, not wanting me to pick up the foot ,yanking the foot away or otherwise not standing quietly despite being "handled" by the owner, I usually take the horse away from the owner and handle it myself.
It's ALWAYS safer, and they usually stand better. No handler is lots better than one who's horsemanship skills are questionable.

[bumfoot SHOER]

This horse i'm workin on is soo... difficult to just get a simple trim. NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
First off this horse was diagnosed with a hoof abcess, then the vet said it wasn't that at all & said that it had to be some tendon/ligament tear.
The vet has not really done any testing, but rather a verbal diagnoses to the owner.
We tried & tried & tried again to trim the long feet, but there was no way the horse would let us. The more i picked up the fronts, she fought back with avengance!!! Pulling & snapping the lead rope, then running off.
I feel that it's a huge combination of (maybe?) her being sore, but also a BIG lack of training & spoiling. I told the owner that i'm NOT triming her until the vet comes to sadate her because that will be the ONLY way to get her done.
But the owner insists that it's her leg!! So... what should i do? Have any of you worked on a leg lame horse? Is sadation the answer for this one?
The horse has had alot of down time without work.
hossboss as dave and patty said be carefull with this type horse they can flip my best advice to you is call the vet and put this horse under sadation.keep your self safe an't no horse worth getting hurt over just ask me and tell ya i have spent the last 9 months with broken ribs and just started back to working on horses. be safe

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Sounds to me like what is called for is:


analgesia so the horse isn't in pain
sedation so its not so panic stricken now its had a bad experience!
a more sensible owner!!!
an assertive farrier that tells the owner what the requirement for safe and sensible handling is


My rule is if I can't handle a horse at my premises and get under it to do its feet, that I sure as heck don't expect ANYONE else to.

As others have said the horse needs to be held not tied. However it needs to be held by someone who knows what they're doing. This sounds to me like an occassion when you're going to have to sedate the horse.

Regrettably the horse was set up to fail by having it tied, in pain and having a wresting match!
The vet has not really done any testing, but rather a verbal diagnoses to the owner.
p.s. I thought all diagnosis were either verbal or written :rolleyes:

But if I was the owner I'd want to know Is it ligament? or tendon? and if so which one? and only then to agree the treatment plan. I'd be expecting that to include, rest and anti-inflammatory anagesia at least.

[Phil Armitage]

Sounds to me like what is called for is:


analgesia so the horse isn't in pain
sedation so its not so panic stricken now its had a bad experience!
a more sensible owner!!!
an assertive farrier that tells the owner what the requirement for safe and sensible handling is


My rule is if I can't handle a horse at my premises and get under it to do its feet, that I sure as heck don't expect ANYONE else to.

As others have said the horse needs to be held not tied. However it needs to be held by someone who knows what they're doing. This sounds to me like an occassion when you're going to have to sedate the horse.

Regrettably the horse was set up to fail by having it tied, in pain and having a wresting match!

p.s. I thought all diagnosis were either verbal or written :rolleyes:

But if I was the owner I'd want to know Is it ligament? or tendon? and if so which one? and only then to agree the treatment plan. I'd be expecting that to include, rest and anti-inflammatory anagesia at least.

Very well said Tom.

[SandraCraig]

[QUOTE=HOSSBOSS;110559]The more i picked up the fronts, she fought back with avengance!!!

I was wondering...if she escalated only after you bent her knees (you know, wasn't all wild-eyed before you even touched her), maybe she has arthritis or some other knee pain which is triggering her pull-back fit (knee pain specifically seems to make them really sit down more). I work on a mare who has arthritic knees and a tremendous anticipatory fight response when you reach for the foreleg. When I bring her legs foreward only, she settles down. Asking for any bend at all is trouble.

Also, about the pulling back...try tossing the lead rope over her back while working in an enclosure to see if that might help. For some reason the feeling of the lead over their body will get some to stand without triggering the pull-back response. Sort of like ground-tying to the body. :) Works better for me (on some) than putting the rope in my pocket.

Just some thoughts. Stay safe
sandy

[Rightstep]

Has anyone tried Modipher EQ?

An old track farrier told me his secret of giving difficult horses 20cc's of vodka, wait 20 min and then you have a calm(drunk?) horse. I have never had to try this (yet) on any of my clients but I may on a few very difficult and foundered ponies I have just added to my books.

[caballus]

Have any of you worked on a leg lame horse? Is sadation the answer for this one?
The horse has had alot of down time without work.

I work on lame horses all the time. Meaning I get called in when all else has failed so I usually get the horses that have already been through the mill and are quite fed up with hoofcare!

I find clicker training to help tremendously. Just utilized it yesterday on a horse who would not allow me to hold his hoof. Refused to hold it on the stand and started to rear when I tried to hold onto him. Was not tied but being held by owner in my front yard/driveway. Introduced the clicker (took 5 mins.) and then utilized it for the trimming -- ended up finishing the horse in less than 10 mins. after struggling for at least 15 just to get one front done. He was happy; I was estatic (he's a big boy and not easily restrained); owner wanted a clicker so she could continue to work w/him ... we all won that battle. :)

--Gwen

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Has anyone tried Modipher EQ?

An old track farrier told me his secret of giving difficult horses 20cc's of vodka, wait 20 min and then you have a calm(drunk?) horse. I have never had to try this (yet) on any of my clients but I may on a few very difficult and foundered ponies I have just added to my books. That could be a good idea for the owner.

But its stark staring bonkers for the horse!

[calshoer]

I would not give a foundered horse 20cc vodka, or any refined alcohol such as that, because it is nearly all carbohydrates. Bad idea.

[Bill Adams]

Have the owner hold the foot for you to trim, they'll call the Vet.

[beslagsmed]

#1 - No body cares any more about your safety and health than you do!!!

#2 - If the horse is sore, don't fight it, get the vet to shoot it up.

You will thank yourself for it later, the horse will also.

[NorvalWilhelm]

#1 - No body cares any more about your safety and health than you do!!!

#2 - If the horse is sore, don't fight it, get the vet to shoot it up.

You will thank yourself for it later, the horse will also.

Vets charge about $35 call fee and then a clock starts and they charge by the minute plus the cost of medication.
All this adds up to $50 plus very quickly. I don't know anyone who wants to throw money like that towards a vet?

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

Vets charge about $35 call fee and then a clock starts and they charge by the minute plus the cost of medication.
All this adds up to $50 plus very quickly. I don't know anyone who wants to throw money like that towards a vet?

This isn't really the farrier problem. If the horse is sore I'll do the best I can but sometimes it come to a point to where you can't possibly do a good job on the horse without sedation.

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Vets charge about $35 call fee and then a clock starts and they charge by the minute plus the cost of medication.
All this adds up to $50 plus very quickly. I don't know anyone who wants to throw money like that towards a vet?


But were suppose to work harder, get hurt, and posssibly be put out of work, just to accommodate a cheap owner. I'll do a lot of things to help out an old or hurt horse, but I won't put my career or life on the line cause the owner won't pay money to make things better for all involved. My doctor bills could add up very quickly also. I don't want to throw good money towards the doctor either just cause the horse owner is cheap.

Don't accommodate people who make you feel bad, they are probably pulling the wool over your eyes, and won't care one bit if you get hurt. If they won't pay the vet for the horse, they won't pay for your doctor either. Go ahead and do these things if you want Norval, but those of us who make a living at this can't take those kinds of chances, or at least shouldn't. As most here say, "STAY SAFE".

As I've said before, my great granfather always told me that the only safe horse is a dead horse. All the rest can kill you at any time. So why take a chance working on one's that the odds are to high?

[John Emsley]

H.B.,
Yesterday I stopped into a Mennonite friend/shoer of mine to get some nails. There was a beautiful 17+hh, 1150-1200lb expensive brute that if he had been handled his value would top $50,000.00. However there he was in the stocks and even at that your life was in jeopardy to go near him. Manfred said to me, "John I guess you don't do these types!?" "Nope, there's too many good ones out there wanting my services and beside the guy that owns him knows better and this should not be happening." The owner was right there and looked sheepish as I walked out the door. :cool: All hell broke loose and even the building was shaking.
Thank God for the Mennonites that shoe these brutes and have stocks. Sure I have done many an unruly pig until I learned that it simply is not worth it. As for what it might or might not cost to get the job done, medication, extra charge for time, broken equipt. etc, what fool would possibly care about the cost any client might incur from working on this kind of animal? :mad:
John

[vthorseshoe]

John,
Tell this owner to truck his horse to me and spend 3 days for me to work on him.
$400. a day (U.S.) and I will send him home willing to pick up his legs willingly and safely to trim "OR" they don't owe me anything.

You come along and we can make this a clinic.
There will be no hitting or drugs involved. Just working with the same system I use on my DVD.
I will find a stable to put him up for 3 days and "THEY" pay all board and stabling expenses.

I believed in what I do and am willing to back it up.

My 2 cents worth ;)

[John Emsley]

Bruce it's good to hear from you.
I have no doubt that what you say about educating this beast and making him as he should be, but the owner, of which I've known for 30-40 yrs and competed against him can do the same. :rolleyes: He's gotten lazy and found someone that'll put up with this craziness for peanuts pay, which was what I got from the posting here. If people will jeopardize their health and welfare and charge or even care what they charge with clients like this, they're being used and taken advantage of. Not my idea of being very smart. ;)
If we're in this business for any length of time, we don't have to prove that we have "gahoonas" and tackle any beast that comes along and for peanuts at that. It burns me up to hear people concerned about how much it might cost the client, what about the life of the poor farrier that hasn't learned to look for the many good horses out there to make a living doing, but risks his life under one of these brutes.
Take care my friend, you're looking slimmer all the time.:)
John

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Vets charge about $35 call fee and then a clock starts and they charge by the minute plus the cost of medication.
All this adds up to $50 plus very quickly. I don't know anyone who wants to throw money like that towards a vet? Someone who can't afford $50 to keep a horse comfortable and a farrier safe can't afford a horse!

I'm totally not persuaded it's a farrier's job to subsidise someone's desire for a luxury lifestyle which included horse ownership.

[vthorseshoe]

Hi John,

If I take 3 days off from shoeing to reschool an animal that has been "allowed" to or taught bad habits and has become a hazard for a farrier to work on, then I am charging an average of what I make shoeing for that day.
Folks down here have no respect, nor do they believe you have a clue of what you are doing unless they can say, "it cost me $$$$$ to have him schooled" Kinda like a badge of pride for them.
Such fools, but thats how it is even with shoeing.
Charge little or do it for free and see who they will turn to. The person who charges the most, for "he or she MUST be the best cause they charges so much".

Most haven't a clue as to what is being done to their horse but they understand the best charge the most, so it is $ signs that they judge a job on.

I have schooled more horses and drafts for free and a mere $25. then trim or shoe them after for my going rate, but no longer. ;)

I am trying and continueing to loose weight. I am feeling better and not so sleepy when I drive and my breathing is improving.
Now I am just copeing with heart burn.
I have totally change my grocery shopping habits and items I buy and it is making an improvement.
Also working on portion control.

my 2 cents worth ;)

[Dances with Hooves]

Bruce,

Allie and I went and trimmed "winnie" yesterday a lovely red chestnut belgian mare about 17h and about 1800 pounds. Shes a former PMU mare who had issues with anybody with equipment being around here hind end.

We dont take them in but spend time (that we charge for) before we trim schooling the problem horse. We also do special training visits just to work with problem horses. We have been working on winnies feet for almost a year now.

Winnie used to kick, bite and try and sit on anyone who attempted to pick up a hind foot. Despite flys driving us into a small building that shook and made noises and the annoyance of the biting flys that followed us inside Winnie was an angel for us, definately the best behaved horse of the day. It was cool to reflect afterwards on how successful we did helping this "nightmare" horse get past her fears to become a willing participant in the hoof trimming process.

[vthorseshoe]

Hi George,
Did Phil get hold of you ?
I will be in Rochester NH working on a percheron, (on August 10th) and will be staying at my brothers. (august 11th )
I told Phil if you can make it down for a visit, (aug. 11th a Monday) I would treat you both to breakfast, lunch or dinner.
We never get a chance to see each other much anymore.

You have come so far in all your horse endeavors, and you have made it a family affair.
As Red Amor would so quickly say, "Good on You"
It a good feeling when you invest the time in a horse and bring this animal out of its fear zone and back to a state of trusting.
I would like to get you folks familiar with my method. I believe you would find it invaluable in your schooling.
Your wife and perhaps your daughter could easily learn it and impliment it into your normal schooling methods.
Congratulation on the belgian mare. She is a lucky animal to have you folks take the time and concern of her well being.

my 2 cents worth ;)

[JimBondra]

Originally posted by vthorseshoe

am trying and continueing to loose weight. I am feeling better and not so sleepy when I drive and my breathing is improving.
Now I am just copeing with heart burn.

Bruce,
I am sorry to hijack this thread BUT, These are EXACTLY the symptoms I had just before I had my heart attack. I have not had heartburn since I went through my open heart surgery AND my breathing is much better and while I do get sleepy it's not the same.
Please, see your Doctor and get a stress test scheduled. And do it yesterday!!!
I am truly concerned for your health.
Sincerely,
Jim Bondra CJF,
Still here after one stent and 4 bypasses.

[KarenStandefer]

Originally posted by vthorseshoe

am trying and continueing to loose weight. I am feeling better and not so sleepy when I drive and my breathing is improving.
Now I am just copeing with heart burn.

Bruce,
I am sorry to hijack this thread BUT, These are EXACTLY the symptoms I had just before I had my heart attack. I have not had heartburn since I went through my open heart surgery AND my breathing is much better and while I do get sleepy it's not the same.
Please, see your Doctor and get a stress test scheduled. And do it yesterday!!!
I am truly concerned for your health.
Sincerely,
Jim Bondra CJF,
Still here after one stent and 4 bypasses.

Ditto for my best friend. Exactly the same symptoms!

[vthorseshoe]

Karen and Jim and Mr. Fanguy;

It is with much humblness that I thankyou for your concerns.

My wife had 4 stents put in for blocked arteries in her heart. I remember her saying it hurt less going in throught the arm than the thigh.

Not tool long ago I did go for a stress test per my doctors suggestion. Had it set up at the hospital and I was told I passed it with flying colors.

I work too many hours, and I don't always get enough sleep.
I am still getting over the passing of my wife on a daily basis.
I have too many ladels in the stew at times and I have customers calling me off the wall.

I have made a drastic change in my diet and am working on changing my portion control and eating schedule.
When I loose more weight I will feel better, I am confident.

Trying to cope with the rising cost of fuel for home and vehicles is always on my mind.

Hey guys ! I am just getting old and tired.
Someone got a boat to sell with a fishing pole set up already ???? :D

my 2 cents worth ;)

[Red Amor]

Arrrh!! just shootem :eek:

[calshoer]

Vets charge about $35 call fee and then a clock starts and they charge by the minute plus the cost of medication.
All this adds up to $50 plus very quickly. I don't know anyone who wants to throw money like that towards a vet?Around here the call fee is 75 and the shot 30 or 40 depending on what it is.That's $120 or more to the owner but Ill still insist if the horse needs it.
(Except laminitics. When it comes to a laminitic horse, I dont want them medicated at all at the time of the hoofcare, because I must be able to "read" their responses to each part of the trimming and shoeing process in order to end up with optimal results.)

But for other lameness issues, My answer to those who think that calling the vet to help get a sore horse shod is "throwing money" ,it is not in the horses benefit to make him have to try to stand quietly because he is in extreme pain, and the longer it takes me to get him done the more is is costing them anyway.

I have some old retired horses who have lameness advanced to a stage where they MUST be medicated (bute, banamine or a little sedation) because of some pain issue or they dont get trimmed or shod. Its not my fault or my problem that a horse has a crippled knee or hock or bad DSLD or whatever.....I am there to treat them, not fight with them.

[caballus]

Someone got a boat to sell with a fishing pole set up already ????


When you find one can I go fishing with you? I'm ready for that boat, too!

;) -- Gwen

[HoustonFarrier]

Now I am just copeing with heart burn.


Bruce:

Prevacid......works like a champ. It's a prescription drug to turn off the stomach acid. I've been on it for 10 years. You might also go take a sleep test.....I'd bet you've got sleep apnea (like I do). CPAP works wonder as well!

Stay healthy, brother

Steve

[vthorseshoe]

Steve;
I have a standing order from my doctor to go to the local hoispital for a sleep apnea test.
I just haven't made the time for it yet.
Yes,. my doctor has feelings that that may be part of my problem.
i will ask about the prevacid.
Thanks my friend.

Gwen,
I have already made arrangements to visit my neice and her husband in Florida for 1 week come Feb-Mar when the hoofs are frozen and stopped growing.
I am going to do nothing but sit in a boat and cast line.
Catch and release. (some will comed home for dinner). :D

my 2 cents worth

[vthorseshoe]

Patty;
I am at that stage.

I have some old retired horses who have lameness advanced to a stage where they MUST be medicated (bute, banamine or a little sedation) because of some pain issue or they dont get trimmed or shod. Its not my fault or my problem that a horse has a crippled knee or hock or bad DSLD or whatever.....I am there to treat them, not fight with them.

I am ready to be medicated or go on bute. :p

When you said "just shoot em"
Were you refering to the horse or ME ????

my 2 cents worth ;)

[Red Amor]

Gday Bruse
Mate it was me said just shootem , sorry sick attempt at humour
I was refering to the noughty horses the one that are dirty
Im sorry if it offended I.ll remove it if you like
I know how you feel about needing to be put down my feet are killing me got to see a fells about thim this week my oath I hope you can fix em

[vthorseshoe]

Red, I wasn't offended.
Quite the contrary old friend.
I have days when I am ready to be put down, and I knew it was you being humorus.
Don't remove it.

I just wasn't sure if it was me or the horse you were refering to.

After all this time, I am quite familiar with your humor and I enjoy it. :D

[Bill Adams]

Bruce take care of your self. I can say this because I don't, which makes me ready to give oppionion at will.
What I have started doing is riding my bike. It has a six speed trany so you have to use a clutch and shifter as opposed to an automatic, and there's two brake levers in stead of one in the truck. You have to push them around to park too. Much more excersize on the bike.
I know you have one too, so get out there and get fit!

[Southerngurl]

Bruce:

Prevacid......works like a champ. It's a prescription drug to turn off the stomach acid. I've been on it for 10 years. You might also go take a sleep test.....I'd bet you've got sleep apnea (like I do). CPAP works wonder as well!

Stay healthy, brother

Steve

Many times, heartburn is caused by low stomach acid, not high. Because the stomach doesn't have enough acid, it churn and churns trying to coat the food. In such a case reducing acid will get rid of the symptom, but obviously is detrimental to your digestion and health.

Try a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar before your meal. If this helps, you know your problem. You can buy hydrochloric acid tablets to help with low acid. Just a possibility.

[Red Amor]

Red, I wasn't offended.
Quite the contrary old friend.
I have days when I am ready to be put down, and I knew it was you being humorus.
Don't remove it.

I just wasn't sure if it was me or the horse you were refering to.

After all this time, I am quite familiar with your humor and I enjoy it. :D

YOU:eek::p;)