Heel height...

[Double C Forge]

Need some opinions. I have read books and lots of post on the forum and when it comes to heel height everyone says to pull heels down to the widest part of the frog. I rode w/ a farrier buddy of mine the other day for the first time and I noticed that he left heel on some horses, like maybe a 1/4" to 3/8" above the frog and I questioned him about it. He told me that those were Western Pleasure horses and they didn't need the heel off, that it would considerably affect the way they move. I just kinda went home scratching my head and wondered about some of your opinions on proper heel height, when they should be cut down to the widest part of the frog or when to leave some heel.

Thanks

[Ronald Aalders]

I shoe a lot of WP horses. And I know a lot of guys leave heel to try and have those horses breakover with as little knee as possible. On some it works, but you can always tell easily when that trick was used. (I wish more judges would be able to tell also, only a few of them can) Horses trimmed like that tend to have a what I like to call 'marching' look. They don't flow when moving.

The reason is that they lack the base of support to rest their body weight on comfortably when moving. Horses shod with too little support (nót trimmed back to the widest part of the frog) can not just put weight on that foot and relax. When moving they put weight on it and then the horses notice that it's not comfortable, so they want to exchange that support foot for another real quick. Those horses stiffen up and the result is that marching look.

So when trimming bring back heels to the widest part of the frog. Make sure the horse has a full base of support that allows comfortable loading. When bringing heels back means you have to lower them a lot, use a wedge shoe or wedge pad to compensate.



Ronald Aalders

[Jason Maki]

I shoe a few, and most are built so upright that in order to establish an HPA, they require a wedge. I did a new horse the other day that had the heels pulled forward PAST the wide point. He was so crushed that when I pulled the heels back, the heels quarters were bent in, then came back out to the buttress. The frog was shreds under a rubber pad. I used a three degree AL fit like an open heeled eggbar and rolled the toe back to the wear plate from 2nd nail to second nail, and toyed with the idea of frog support. The virulent and massive thrush infection kept me from that. I treated the thrush, left instructions to treat 3x a week, but to leave the bedding and arena dirt packed in the foot in the interum. I expect large improvement at the next cycle. I have had good success just shoeing the animals to their conformation, with an aluminum shoe to keep weight down. Stacking 'em up and dubbing them off only creates problems sooner or later( usually sooner than later!)
Jason Maki CJF

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Chris, stick with trimming the heels to the widest part of the frog and obtain proper hoof pasturn angle by wedgeing and useing frog support. Watching the horse move and checking for a flat of slight heel first landing is a good way in determining if the horse needs to be wedged up or not. There are times when a horse cannot handle frog support and needs to wedged up. Thrush in the frog, navicular pain, puncture in the frog are situations where you might see a horse not want frog pressure. Get the injury healed up thrush cleaned up and healed before applying pads. Sometimes you see a horse that is slightly broken back and they move fine, just leave them alone. High heels is uncomfortable and can cause abcesses, corns and heel pain. These problems can lead to more problems because the horse starts to compensate by landing toe first and could result in a partialy dislocated coffin bone joint, navicular and other problems related to improper loading and cuncussion. Western pleasure people are half right thinking that high heels might be better for horses, becuase they know low heels long toes is bad. But they are not thinking it all the way through and are actually causeing the very problem that they fear most. Good question!

[Mike Ferrara]

Western pleasure people are half right thinking that high heels might be better for horses, becuase they know low heels long toes is bad. But they are not thinking it all the way through and are actually causeing the very problem that they fear most. Good question!

I see a lot of this lately. Most of my customers are new customers (new area rememeber) and they're all screaming "more heel". The problem is the horse have lots of heel but it's growing in the wrong direction.

I had a guy call me the other day about an account with about 100 horses. His big concern was heel hight...he didn't want them low. I tried to explain but I'm not sure I got through. I'll bet money that if and when I get there I'll see a bunch of horses with crushed/underrun heels, not because the previous guy took too much off but because he didn't take enough.

I had a day of them yesterday and the barefoot folks would have a blast on the internet if they had pictures of these horses. Luckily these folks just had me put them on a schedule.

[calshoer]

I have done SO many horses that had a ton of heel but the toe had drifted forward too so at first external glance they seemed aligned but there were some real illusions.
Pulled all that heel off by trimming a lot MORE heel than toe in most of them ,(often twice as much heel) then reduced the distortion in the FRONT of the foot by getting the breakover back wjhere it belobnged accordign toe true coffin bone location, rolling the overhanging toe and reducing the flare. All of a sudden that foot looks as steep or steeper than it did before. The first time I saw it it blew ME away. That was one of the reasons I kept going back for more clinics and got convinced. It blows a lot of people away to see it so I will do one foot all the way through, leaving the other so they can compare. It is a terrific education in how the eye can let the front of the foot get away when there is too much heel.
As welll they do not know that when you engage the FROG by getting that heel off, and get the breakover point back, P2 can change angle in the joint , lining the coffin bone/pastern up by moving the lower end of P2 forward, LOWERING the pastern angle a bit . Isuggest just done tell them, whaty you are doing. To get around owners and trainers reluctant to let you trim the hels where they belong, It was suggested recently to just use a really sharp the rasp to lower those heels, then the owner or trainer or whoever won't see a chunk of heel on the ground. They'll never know you did it.
If the horse needs more height to the heels AFTER I have gotten them trimmed to engage the frog, then a supportive wedge pad is appropriate. That way it retains foot FUNCTION while raising the angles to get bone alignment. But more often than not, the wedges will not be needed even though all that heel was removed, as long as the breakover point is addressed too.
BTW I went to an AQHA youth show this weekend just for kicks because it was nearby and about lost my lunch (Ronald...braken is the word there ?) when I saw the feet.
Almost all were extremely stumpy, frogs a half inch to an inch off the ground, many in egg bars, grossly narrow and contracted with really high heels and LOOOONG toes. And the horses mostly looked crippled and crabby,stabbing their toes in the ground every step. Its cruel to make a horse go like that.
Bless the judges hearts though, they did place first the ONLY horse in one pleasure class who was the ONLY one in the class who had a two beat trot and a three beat lope. And his nose was at least somewhere up out of the dirt.
OK I'll get off the box now. Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Very good Patty, not a word you picked up visiting Amsterdam I hope?


Ronald Aalders

[Double C Forge]

So when trimming bring back heels to the widest part of the frog. Make sure the horse has a full base of support that allows comfortable loading. When bringing heels back means you have to lower them a lot, use a wedge shoe or wedge pad to compensate.
Ronald Aalders


Ron when you bring the heels down to the widest part of the frog, why would you have to use a wedge pad? To compensate for what?

This is my assumed understanding (is it correct?): Lets say you have a foot w/ heels 1/2" over the widest part of the frog. Now if I trim the heels down that much then I would assume to put a wedge pad in to keep from the extra pull on the DDFT & the SFFT all of a sudden and lower the pad a degree at a time thru-out a couple shoeings and by doing this I have given support on the entire bottom of the hoof capsule including the frog.

Also is there any remote possibility that a horse could have a hoof/pastern angle that would require:

A) they have to be in a wedge pad always? or
B) that they are going to have to have some heel in order to keep correct angles?



stick with trimming the heels to the widest part of the frog and obtain proper hoof pasturn angle by wedgeing and useing frog support.
Phil Armitage

Phil if the heels are down to the widest part of frog and I insert a wedge pad then why would I need some type of frog support like Equi-Pak or Equi-Build or even silicone?


Thank you so much to everyone for passing on their knowledge & experience.

[calshoer]

Ronald no not Amserdam, just a dictionary. I have a lady farrier friend over there(Joke Nibbelink) who has a natural balance website and of course it is all in Dutch, so I have to use the dictionary to slowly translate the posts. It is so tedious. Patty
Chris, as you your questions aout the wedge pads, in my experience sometimes when the heels are taken down where they belong they do not need a wedge. The footfall at thw walk will be the deciding factor, if Ido not have Xrays.
I walk them after they get trimmed and before I fit the new shoes. If they still and flat or heel first, I try without the pad. Often if they land flat, once the breakover point is also corrected, they immediately switch to a nice subtle heel landing.
If they are landing on their heels, it indicates there is not too much tension in the DDFT. If the tendon was too tight they would not get that heel landing.They would go toe first. A toe first landing is my clue to wedge them. Some need wedge pads forwever,(especially negative plane P3 horses) but some only need them for a few shoeings until the whole body changes and they 'free up'. As long as they can reach the full length of the walking stride and land slightly heel first with those heels trimmed back where they belong ,I am confident that the tendon tension is fine.
Patty

[Peter Lundin]

Sounds good, do you have some pics?
Peter