Navicular or Founder?

[SKeyowski]

I am working on a 15 yr old retired reining mare that shows lameness after trimming. She has feet that are common among navicular horses. She was foundered in the past (2001), but after 3 sets of x-rays in the past 1.5 - 2 years, there is no coffin bone rotation, but she still goes lame. Vets seem to refuse to x-ray for navicular, but I am positive it is the problem. Is it possible for the DDFT to have cause damage to the navicular bursa or bone itself when the coffin bone rotated from founder previously? The white line at times shows founder again, then the next time is fine. I would appreciate any input or feedback. Thanks.

[calshoer]

Obviously no matter what is inside, something in the trim procedure is affecting that unknown condition and making her lame. (assuming she is fine before the trim)
So You need to think about what EXACTLY are you doing in the trim. Lowering heels? Paring ANY sole ahead of the frog ? How does she land before and after the trim. Look at the untrimmed foot carefully before you start and try to figure out how it has grown,what pats have noticeably thickened or worn off to gain it's own shape and structure for comfort. The foot can tell you a lot.
Given that she hads foundered, she probably needs ALL the protection under the edge of the coffin bone that a bare foot can offer. That means do NOT pare sole ahead of the frog apex. It may be safer to leave it all there, dead stuff included ,unless it literally falls out easy with the hoof pick.

If she is growing a lot of heel in between shoeings, she may still need it for some reason. Do not trim so much heel that she lands toe first.

Do NOT trim the hoofwal in the front half of the foot down to the level of the sole. Leave a sixtenth inch or more in the toe corners to help keep some pressure off the sole in those toe corners (where the bone is closest to the ground).
Be sure to roll the toe. You can do that only IF you left ALL the sole alone in the front of the foot,and left that little bit extra wall, so rasping the roll in does not get back into live sole. And getting a good roll in the toe will help preent her from growing so much heel.
Just some suggestions. Something here might ring a bell for you.
Patty

[hectorshouse]

I have a 5yr old that has just been diagnosed with navicular syndromme, im no expert but from what my vet has told me and shown me from my horses x rays the dammage to the navic bone is all conected to the dammage also to the DDFT , and all though a few yrs ago the treatment was to work them this has all changed and now it is box rest as navicular syndromme is made up of the coffin joint, navicular bone, the DDFT, and the impare ligaments so any damage to any of these i would imagine would buld up to this. from what you say about that horse it sounds like how mine was at first, some times he was fine and other times he was lame. i dont no if this will help in anyway but i hope it does. ( as i said im no expert)

[mccrae22]

HI

i am wondering if any one can help!!!!!!

i have a warmblood which went lame at years of age. i had my vet and had x-rays nerve blocks etc, they said he had started with early stages of navicular but nothing much was showing on his x - rays he had remadial shoes and he came sound.

i was told to go back to my own farrier and carry on with the same bar shoes, after a few months he went back lame, had more nerve blocks and i was told he has heel pain he has been box rested and now turnned away with no shoes.

hes been lame foe over a year now he hasnt got any better or worse.

he doesnt stand pointing his toe/put his toe down first when walking or shift his weight.

i have some one coming to try the bare foot trim in March, has ant one had any success with this with navicular horse???

thanks :o

[THamilton]

To answer the fianl question first. ( the one aboout the barefoot trim), I believe that this forum will erupt into another melee of opinions that will stray off the subject. You can further explore the site for further description. I would believe that the barefoot trim would not be beneficial to your horse in this case. Enough said.

I say the heel pain that your horse experienced witht he bar shoe was due to pressure exerted by the shoe after a period of time. I have had success with this type of shoe in the past, but tomy understanding after several times of applying it, it places pressure on the rear of the foor causing caudal discomforft to the horse.

I have had success with using the Natural Balance shoe in combination with a NB pad and impressino material. Then after a few times you can try the horse in just the shoes. I have returned horses to competition with the treatment and management.

Tony

[josh burris]

first off i just want to say that if she had xrays showing no rotation the coffin bone should be fine. use your hoof testers to locate the sorness squeeze around the navicular area. if no sign of sorness horse may be laminitic try a frog support pad with edss support putty good luck

[josh burris]

for the warmblood -do not lower the heels of that horse! the barefoot trim is not good for navicular. a horse suffering from navicular needs enough elevation in the heels to releive ddft without hurting the coffin bone alignment . try a wedge bar shoe to decrease the pain on ddft. the navicular bone is basicly a coarse lava rock, after the bursa breaks, and the ddft that runs underneath it gets sore rubbing against the coarse bone. u can imagine why lifting the heel is essential. good luck

[Ronald Aalders]

first off i just want to say that if she had xrays showing no rotation she never had it. do not worry about the placement of the coffin bone. it would not effect the navicular bone anyway. use your hoof testers to locate the sorness squeeze around the navicular area. if no sign of sorness horse may be laminitic but keep in mind, it isn't founder unless u have rotation of p3. laminitis causes founder. try also a frog support pad with putty packing, pack not to tight. good luck


And here I am thinking all this navicular and laminitis stuff all was very complicated!


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

first off i just want to say that if she had xrays showing no rotation she never had it. do not worry about the placement of the coffin bone. it would not effect the navicular bone anyway.
Say What??? :confused: :confused: :eek:
use your hoof testers to locate the sorness squeeze around the navicular area.
So you advocate that non-veterinary medicine degreed farriers should practice vet med?
if no sign of sorness horse may be laminitic but keep in mind, it isn't founder unless u have rotation of p3.
Hark! hear the ringing of Chuck Berris' GONG! True founder involves not rotation, but sinking of the bony column(the term 'founder' comes from naval terminology and means, "to sink"). In recent times, rotation of p3 has also become accepted as a form of founder, but it is a love struck second cousin to the original meaning of the term. A third form of founder which involves mostly capsular rotation away from parallel contiguous alignment of the dorsal surface of p3 and the dorsal surface of the hoof capsule, without rotation of p3, or even, necessarily, sinking of the bony column, has also become accepted as another form of the pathology. And, these conditions may exist either singly or in combination. Guess which is the worst option.
laminitis causes founder.
There are those who would argue that not all incidents of founder are the end result of laminitis. And, while laminits may be a precursor to founder in some but not all cases, laminitis does not, per se, cause founder. The things that cause founder have their origins elsewhere. Both laminitis and founder are "conditions" and "results" not primary initiators.
try also a frog support pad with putty packing, pack not to tight. good luck
What does "pack not to tight" mean? How does one determine if the packing is either too tight or too loose, or, for that matter, just right?

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=josh burris]

RB: So you advocate that non-veterinary medicine degreed farriers should practice vet med?

JB: farrier should know how to use hoof testers, do you?

RB: Yes I do. But knowing how to use hoof testers and using them to diagnose when one is not a veterinarian are two different kettles of fish. Guess which one can get you sued.

RB: Hark! hear the ringing of Chuck Berris' GONG! True founder involves not rotation, but sinking of the bony column(the term 'founder' comes from naval terminology and means, "to sink"). In recent times, rotation of p3 has also become accepted as a form of founder, but it is a love struck second cousin to the original meaning of the term. A third form of founder which involves mostly capsular rotation away from parallel contiguous alignment of the dorsal surface of p3 and the dorsal surface of the hoof capsule, without rotation of p3, or even, necessarily, sinking of the bony column, has also become accepted as another form of the pathology. And, these conditions may exist either singly or in combination. Guess which is the worst option.

JB: whatever pick me apart

RB: Don't have to. You are doing a fine job all on your own.

RB: There are those who would argue that not all incidents of founder are the end result of laminitis. And, while laminits may be a precursor to founder in some but not all cases, laminitis does not, per se, cause founder. The things that cause founder have their origins elsewhere. Both laminitis and founder are "conditions" and "results" not primary initiators.

JB: laminitis can cause founder then happy?

RB: I am neither happy nor, unhappy. I am however, somewhat saddened that after the short course I provided you, you have still proven to be an indifferent scholar. To wit: you repeated your incorrect claim("laminitis can cause founder") after having just read that this is not the case. Were you to read the last sentence of the paragraph just above, for content in context, you would have arrived at a much different conclusion. Perhaps some remedial reading is in order?

RB: What does "pack not to tight" mean? How does one determine if the packing is either too tight or too loose, or, for that matter, just right?

JB: if you put too much it may be uncomfortable causing greater pressure on the sole when the horse stands on it just enough to fill the comissuers and around the bars

RB: how do you determine if your approach is "just right" or "too loose"? And, are you suggesting that the packing should extend further forward than a line drawn across the foot at the true apex of the frog?

As your Freshman year draws to a close, one can only wonder whether or not your teachers will approve your moving on to your Sophomore year(after all, while your replies thus far have been sophomoric, it is demonstrable that you are not yet a candidate for the role/title of "Sophomore"--"seeker of knowledge") or if it might not be better to send you down a grade or two so you would have the chance to re-take the classes you missed or slept through.

[tgavette]

Wow! now I know the difference between someone that wants to learn and someone that has not a clue.