Bars... questions

[coreen harris]

Got a few questions about bars. The term "fractured bars" enterred my vocabulary a few weeks ago, and I said huh? As if the universe answered, one of my horses turned up (after a horrible time on the frozen mud from winter) with what I *think* are just that. Sorry I didn't get a pic, so I'll try to describe what I saw. Normally the bars come right out of the corner of the heel, right? Well this time there was a black crack at that juncture, and the bars laid forward a bit (not much, she gets trimmed every 4 - 6 weeks). Is that a fractured bar? I trimmed the bars down to live sole level this time instead of just above in the hopes that this will act like any other crack or flare and with proper balanced trimming grow out back to its normal position. Horse is otherwise sound, now that the icey ground is thawed.
Normally I am obsessed with leaving a hoof with good balance, and this one did not show any other signs that I *goofed*, I do roll the whole wall, a little less towards the back, and I only raise quarters if the sole tells me that is what the hoof likes. This horse normally has very slightly raised quarters. So I am wondering what contributes to this problem. Is it merely a hoof due for its trim that took a bad step? Should I in the future trim this horse's bars to sole level or just do that until the crack is repaired? Could this have been the bars' attempt at self trimming? Am I totally missing something?
Lots of questions I know, but this is one area that is hard to find info about. Thanks,
Coreen

[Dances with Hooves]

Fractured bars or black stuff under a bar that lays over are just natures way of addressing the need to remove some excess bar. Your horse did not "break" his bar and will be just fine. I usually will remove bar that lays over but leave it if it is straight and has no black material under it. In my experience when the heels get more than a certain distance beyond the sole plane they "push" the back of the foot forward against the widest part of the foot and one begins to see bars with more than the normal curvature and/or fractures. I'd suggest making sure that the heels are done to about the level of the sole plane on a front foot and a smidge beyond the plane on a hind and leaving the good bar but removing the nonfunctional bar described above.

George

[calshoer]

Here is a picture of a fractured bar. This is due to overgrown heels and bars bending forward toward the widest part of the foot.
In this case the whole foot was imbalanced a long time, and overgrown. The heels are also contracted doe to the hoof imbalance. . The black crevice in the middle of the bar went deep into the foot and can be a source of abscessing if not cleaned out. An interesting note is that nearly always the direction of the fractire line points directly to the widest part of the foot. No coincidence, since that is the widest part of the coffin bone wings,a basically solid object where everything in the rear of the foot gets smashed forward into when the heels are too long. Patty

[coreen harris]

Thanks, I thought that was what I was seeing. I do the heels exactly as you describe anyway, front and back... Yes this mare was overgrown, but not severely. My fault, I had opted to forego trimming during our totally frozen ground period, figuring I'd wait til I saw cracking (only one horse bothered to have a crack) start and in the meantime let them have all the hoof they can get for purchase on the unforgiving terrain. This may have been a mistake. I won't know til next winter now when they will stick to our 4 week schedule. What I do know is that when the ground froze, some were in a fresh trim, and all the horses (11) complained way more than they ever do on rocks. (Only 3 here are still not quite up to rocky terrain). The mare I wrote about was the freshest trim, she was also one of the first to complain about the ground. The further out they were from a trim was consistent with who complained the least or latest. That is part of why I decided to not trim during the freeze. I guess when nature throws you a curveball, you either have your mit on or you don't.

[caballus]

OK ... George said the mare did not "break" her bar; Patty said the opposite. Now, I've seen plenty of bars like this and Gene has been the only one to mention the fracturing of the overgrown bars that I know of (or, the first I heard from about it). Patty ... can you explain just *how* the bar fractures/breaks? I understand why and certainly know what they look like and how to prevent and/or correct them but I'm not totally 100% on how it actually 'breaks' ... we're not talking about bone matter so it's hard for me to visualize.

Thanks!

*S* --caballus

[Dances with Hooves]

Actually I agree with patty. The written word is a funny thing I put the word "break" in quotes to indicate that coreen could not have done any lasting damage to the bar by letting the horse grow long for one trimming cycle. I did not want her to feel that "fracturing" a bar was anything like "fracturing" a structure that does not regenerate easily(for example a P-3 fracture). That is to say that the bar is deforming and cracking to release pressure on it from the heel being too tall but the foot should be fine once heel height is addressed. Now a horse that is always kept tall is a different story but Once this horse is back on a regular trimming cycle coreen should be able to keep nice straight bars on the hoof provided that the heels are brought down to the level of the sole plane consistantly.

When I see a fractured bar I take that as evidence that I have either left the horse go too long (not always my call as some horses that should be on a shorter cycle go long for the owners budget reasons) or if its a horse that I am trimming regularly this serves as a red flag for me that I am most likely leaving too much heel. In addition to cleaning up the bar I will diagram the foot and search dilligently for any chalky material in the angle of the bar to better understand that particular foot.

George

[caballus]

Thank you for the clarification, George. I generally clean thoroughly right down to live sole at the seat of corn to figure out where I'll be trimming. In the case of a "broken" bar, I'll take that down to the live sole at about mid-point of the frog and then make sure there's a nice taper right up to the heel. Generally, that takes care of it. I have set days in the month, every month, for barns. For instance, all my north central MA people will fall on the 1st and 2nd Thursdays of the month. My RI people will fall on the 3rd Thursday of the month; my CT people on the 2nd Tuesday and so on and so forth. Makes for easy scheduling for me as well as the client. I trim every 4 - 5 weeks for maintenance and every 2-3 weeks for restorative/corrective jobs for the 1st couple of months while the hoof stabalizes a bit. That way everyone knows when their horses will be tended and I know how to schedule in "emergencies" as well as new clientele. Also helps the budgeting, too, as everyone either pays in advance or COD. I don't put anyone on account. That way I know what's coming in when. I do the same for my training clients. In advance or COD on a regular schedule. That means I'll sometimes have training and trims on the same day for the same region.

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

Don Bascom talks about Fractured Bars in his book Well Shod. My shoeing instructor also talked about them. Both these guys pretty much said they are cause if allowed to over grow or step on a rock. Don, explained that if there is a lot of flexing in the heels when squeezed together then this may be a sign of fractured bars. Another cause of fractured bars is sheared heels due to being out of medial lateral balance and too long. Horses are generaly sore when the bars are broken and a Bar shoe helps to stableise the foot and helps the pain and healing. Don also claims that this is a commenly misdiagnosed problem and often thought that the horse has Navicular Desease.

[coreen harris]

Well yeah, its not a fracture or break like a bone, but it is a break in structure. I understood George the first time and enjoyed the clarification.

I reckon since the bars are actually a continuation of hoofwall they are prone to cracks if out of balance, or nature will try to de-junk them like any other part of the wall. "Fracture" is a handy word , but it does conjure up some wicked images.

Phil this mare actually does have navicular disease, contracted hooves, a real mess and a constant challenge. So far I have been able to keep her sound - she was supposed to have been due for a neurectomy 2 1/2 year ago. When I got her in Nov of 2001, her hooves at the ground were smaller than at the coronary! Exrays didn't show any degeneration except for some nav bone changes, so I'm happy with partial decontraction, I don't expect full ever... well maybe in another few years, its a long road. She goes better now than when I got her, heel first landing consistently for over a year now, even with the banged up bar - I'm counting that as a superficial crack but you can bet I won't make assumptions in the future just because hers is a mild presentation.
Thanks again folks!

[calshoer]

Caballus, the simply break because they can only bend so far.
The heels getting long and running forward bends the bar because everything butts up against the wings of the coffin bone like there was a wall there. So it jams up.
Bend a stick and see where it usually breaks... in the middle. Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

An interesting note is that nearly always the direction of the fractire line points directly to the widest part of the foot. No coincidence, since that is the widest part of the coffin bone wings,a basically solid object where everything in the rear of the foot gets smashed forward into when the heels are too long. Patty

That IS an interesting note Patty! I never looked at it that way but I think you're right. Thanks.


Ronald Aalders

[coreen harris]

Great, now my little ADD mind is going into hyperdrive. Okay, so if you see a crack like that, and its pointing to the widest part of P3,
a) that verifies ones ability to identify that (widest P3) from the bottom or to point out where you might have misjudged by a hair, and
b) might that be used. Lets say you draw a matching line, a mirror image, on the other side. Then you line from the widest part of P3 on both sides back through these lines to form a V, what would that tell us about the true rear of the hoof, or about the overall balance, or where the hoof needs to go to alleviate the stress on that structure...? Hmmm?

Ummm, favor to ask, will take time and a good memory, lol. If/when you all come accross more "fractured" bars, could you be so kind as to send me pics, and a description of what you did to alleviate, and follow up - I want to do some math.
Coreen

[calshoer]

All you have to do to alleviate them is first clean the fracture line out with the knife to help prevent the possible abscess, and then keep the foot properly trimmed espcially heels properly trimmed back to the sole plane,and the bars groomed (trimmed of anything that is not fairly straight and functional) to prevent a reccurance.
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Since we're all famous for leaving the subject at hand and discuss something else entirely, my two cents worth:

Just a quick side step here, in laminitis cases rotation is caused by DDFT pull (Redden). Dr. O'Grady pointed out to me on two occasions that body weight plays a role too. I have been thinking about this ever since, I wonder if it's true.

Anyway if the coffin bone wings while landing and loading push so hard on (high) heels that the bars shear, would that not suggest that just body weight makes a coffin bone rotate backwards instead of forward as Dr. O'Grady seems to think?


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Hmmmmm...certainly seems possible with nothing to hold it UP, like a good digital cushion.(have you ever taken a good digital cushion out of a dead hoof and tried to smash it under your foot?? It is super springy).
Heres a radiograph of a front foot on a HUGE(17 plus, about 1500 pound hand freaky giant quarter horse ) that had been a top notch halter horse :( as a youngster, presented like this at only three years old, size 1 feet, barely able to walk. And so in chronic pain he wanted to literally eat everyone around him. He had been barefoot a while too.,so the frogs were on the ground where they belonged.
Talk about a bad weak foot. He was shod that day in EDSS full rails frog support the works. Walked off like a different horse in an hour. This was a man made wreck who will always need man made help (barefooters take note)
Patty
And as usual note these pictures are copyrighted. Not to be used on ANY OTHER websites or reproduced except for personal use.

[Ronald Aalders]

Wow, that one must be sore!

I'm not trying to sell products from others here. I just pick what I need and thank the guys providing it.

Having said that Patty, I'm positive that a banana shoe on this horse would have set this one up with a even straighter axis through P1 - P3. Offering just that little extra. You don't really have to change your shoeing protocol, look at a banana like a rolled toe, just starting much further back.

BTW do you also have pics of that foot? I'ld like to compare them to the rads.

Thanks,



Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Yes a banana type breakover/roll would also have been a good option but this was done at a an EDSS clinic....so we were not demonstrating a Dr. Redden shoeing :D
One wierd thing is I have seen in a couple of these (including this one) is when the P2 and P3 finally get lined up, the distal end of P1 moved too far forward in the pastern joint. But a couple of vets have told me that those will settle back correctly in the joint later.
Dr.Rooney or Dr. Myers, do you have any explanation?

Unfortuntely I don't have any good lateral pics of the feet themselves. Here is a bad one one taken before the trim was complete, with the foot held up. You can't see the end of the toe but you can see the overall shape of the dorsal hoofwall. (the heels have been trimmed some, but the wall in the toe has not yet been trimmed)
I turned the picture over to show the shape of the dorsal wall better than it was upside down.
Really strange ..he did NOT have a bull nosed front froot, only the rears were obviously negative planes. However The sole DID bulge noticeably down at the rear of the coffin bone wings. We all about fell over when we saw the films, because when he walked in,due to the look of the feet exernaly we did not suspec negtive planes but rather thought he had maybe fractures, or bipartate navicular bones or huge spurs or something like that.
We only shod the fronts that day and trimmed the rears because the owners said the horse would probably hurt somebody if they tried to nail on rear shoes.They had everybody afraid of the horse. The farrier who was in attandance was going to do the hind feet some time later.
One personal side note, because of this horses halter show history, unusual gigantic size (he was a monster) and such poor feet, I always wonder if anabolic steroids or some other growth hormone were involved. Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Steriods??? Impossible!!! :rolleyes:

About the bull nose, I noticed more then once that negative PA's with a really straight pastern like this one don't bulge out as others tend to do.

On the P1 deal, I would not be surprised that tissue like tendons and ligaments kind of settles to the really low PA. On raising that PA, those structures have to get accustomed to a more natural angle. I like to compare it to a club foot situation. You know from normal to a club foot would be kind of the same difference as from that really low PA to normal for a while.

At least that is how I got it explained.......


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Yep..just like that Xray.
In fact this particular horse's other foot did just that , and we lowered the rails a bit to drop it back in, because we were not going to be around to change them later if needed. The connective tissue explanation makes sense.Thanks. Patty