All of this white line?

[Complete Equine]

I have a question for you, I have been a farrier for about three years and a horse owner for many years before that. I have only seen a few cases of WLD and recently had one that perplxed me.

There are 8 animals on this farm, 6 donkeys, 1 QH, 1 draft. They are all trimmed regularly (every 6-10 weeks, depending on growth). Yesterday, I noticed the tell-tale chalkiness on one of the donkeys and ended up resecting a portion of every one of her hooves... see pictures. The next donkey I trimmed had some infection in three of his hooves, but not as severe. None of the other animals were infected. All the animals are kept in the same pasture and living environment, pretty much all have the same diet, etc.

1st question: Have you ever seen WLD affect all the hooves of one animal? I've never heard of this before. This donkey has no history of founder or other injuries.

2nd question: It has been 12 weeks since I lasted trimmed this donkey. (These guys don't seem to grow at all in the winter) Is it possible that this infection developed in that time, or is this something I missed at the last trim? I always try to be very observant, but I've made a mistake once before... ;)

Thanks for any help!
Julie M

P.S. The pictures (in order of appearance) are LF, LH, LH, RF, RH

[farriergodmother]

The worst WLD disease I've seen has been in donkeys, all four feet. The key to getting it under control and gone was really trimming all of it out, leaving no creavice for it to hide in and the owner being super uptight about cleanliness and soaking and, of course, good balanced trims on a regular schedule.

One client with mini donks taught me a little trick. She would soak pieces of sponge with White Lightning and use plastic sandwich bags and electrical tape on each foot. In five minutes she could get 8 feet bagged and leave them in their little stalls until time the timer went off. Remove the bags and reuse the sponge pieces.

[Red Amor]

Gday Julie

Donkeys hooves will rot a lot quicker than the horse
yes it is common that an individual will get seedy toe and the others don't
Ive seen it where all animals were fed and treat in the same manner and just the one came up with it

Copper sulphate is one if not the best tool I have in my bag for treating seedy toe /white line /canker
Holes or cavities you create in excavating the seedy toe are flushed with any anti bac/fungal solution you have or a solution of copper sulphate and water
the cavity is than about half filled with copper sulphate powder and this is tamped down firm and a plug of stockholm tar dampened cotton wool that is tackie not wet and can be tamped into the hole to hold meds in and dirt out is placed
If you have a nice hole to fill and have done so properly you should not have to worry about it at all and you will simply trim this out over a couple of trims until you end up with lovely new hoof /sole with a green stain in it
you have won

you can if you have little or no wall to work with soak the hooves in a solution of copper and water , in bucket /soaking boot or a soaking pond like the Hoofters do to soften the hooves for trimming
If your animals are stabled and the matter not cleaned so often I have known folks to sprinkle copper around the floor and in drinking /feeding and camping areas

[Complete Equine]

Thanks very much!

I treated the affected areas with Xenodine (supposed to be antibacterial/antifungal) and told her to treat at least once a day for a week, then every few days for a few more weeks. It's just a topical, not a soak. I've read that you really shouldn't cover up the 'holes' as this will cause the bacteria/fungus to grow if you aren't able to kill them all. Do you guys find soaking works better than a topical liquid? Ever have any recurrence problems if you cover them with a soaked cotton 'plug'?

I was also wondering something... I heard that copper sulfate is a good fungicide, but it only just inhibits the growth of bacteria, wouldn't it be better to kill them? Is that why you prefer white lightning? I have a few bottles of that stuff in stock, but no one has been willing to use it because of the application. Thanks for your suggestion with the sponge and baggies! That may help a lot. :)

[farriergodmother]

I was also wondering something... I heard that copper sulfate is a good fungicide, but it only just inhibits the growth of bacteria, wouldn't it be better to kill them? Is that why you prefer white lightning? I have a few bottles of that stuff in stock, but no one has been willing to use it because of the application. Thanks for your suggestion with the sponge and baggies!

I haven't used copper sulfate to treat WLD so I can't comment on it. The best treatment is air, trimming any traps out is crucial. If there is no place to hide, it won't continue to spread. Larger horses you can use pieces of inner tube for an inexpensive soak boot. If the horse has something to eat and a stall to stand in with all affected feet bagged up at once, things go more smoothly. I usually offer to do the first soak and show the owner how to do it and have found the owners are more apt to follow thru with future applications. White Lightening and shoes don't mix well because of oxidation. The stuff will eat the nails out of a foot pretty quickly. So don't use it while the horse is shod and don't immediately stick a set of shoes on a horse with feet that are saturated with the stuff. You'll be applying a new set of shoes within a few days:o

[Karl Bid]

As Red Amor said, blue vitriol *(Copper Sulphate) is very effective !

"?? stockholm tar dampened cotton wool??" (we use pine tar + oakum, to all kind of stuffing)

[NorvalWilhelm]

Copper sulfate is a blue granular powder. Did I read somewhere that you can actually dig out the infected area and pack it partly full of this concentrated power?? Will it not burn the foot??
Can you also make a concentrated solution by boiling water and adding powder until no more disolves and then use it on the sole for thrush???

[Red Amor]

Yes Karl
I get cotton wool and lay it out on a sheet of tin and poor Joseph llyddies stockholm tar on to it and then spend some time mixing it through
I like it to be thoroughly mixed and I like it to not be too damp or sloppy
A tacky consistency the wodds up and packs in hard locking in the copper powder and keeps rocks out
The hoof is just trimmed normally until the cavity is trimmed out leaving nice new clean hoof n sole with a green stain out
Ive been using this method ever since I first started in Farriery
Olmate the got me started Dow Paterson of Pinehurst forge loop knives using it since he started 40 odd years age and same with olmate taught him
It works Its the most consistent simple inexpensive method I know of KISS systems love em
Never known it to burn hoof , maybe if you were over selous and dug through the white line and compromised the sensitive laminar
as Ive said befor copper sulphate 10 % or so solution in water is great soak for thrush canker mud fever greasy heel rain scald
Copper sulphate Mate
is guaranteed to cure
coffs colds and pimples on ya oles

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

A simple on going solution is to plate the shoe with copper.

Kevin

[Karl Bid]

Yes Karl
I like it to be thoroughly mixed and I like it to not be too damp or sloppy
A tacky consistency the wodds up and packs in hard locking in the copper powder and keeps rocks out
The hoof is just trimmed normally until the cavity is trimmed out leaving nice new clean hoof n sole with a green stain out
Ive been using this method ever since I first started in Farriery
Olmate the got me started Dow Paterson of Pinehurst forge loop knives using it since he started 40 odd years age and same with olmate taught him
It works Its the most consistent simple inexpensive method I know of KISS systems love em
Never known it to burn hoof , maybe if you were over selous and dug through the white line and compromised the sensitive laminar
as Ive said befor copper sulphate 10 % or so solution in water is great soak for thrush canker mud fever greasy heel rain scald
Copper sulphate Mate
is guaranteed to cure
coffs colds and pimples on ya oles

Yes, Red. I could not agree with You moore. As You say:

"Never known it to burn hoof , maybe if you were over selous and dug through the white line and compromised the sensitive laminar"

- I have used it under my own bigtoe nail to fix somekind of fungus-attack,for a month and a half, it didn't burn - it fixed my toe :)

"as Ive said befor copper sulphate 10 % or so solution in water is great soak for thrush canker mud fever greasy heel rain scald
Copper sulphate Mate
is guaranteed to cure
coffs colds and pimples on ya oles"

-Yes, excellent for mud fever rain scald and trush, everykind of rot. Used of all oldtimers,(only known of medicine in past plus ofcourse boose and tar) good for horses people caddle sheeps painting etc. etc.
-, + cheap!

[SlowShoe]

Hi all,

A simple on going solution is to plate the shoe with copper.

Kevin

how is that simple? Plus it does not address the problem when the fungus is already in the hoofwall.

[cowboy_bc]

how is that simple? Plus it does not address the problem when the fungus is already in the hoofwall.

Hi all,

And covering the white line (infection) with a plain steel shoe does?

Kevin

[SlowShoe]

Hi all,

And covering the white line (infection) with a plain steel shoe does?

Kevin

I now see you had the word 'on going' but this is not really a solution its more of something you could do in conjunction with. A plain copper plated shoe wont help the fungle problem when its already up in the wall any more than a steel shoe.

[Joey Aczon]

Copper sulfate is a blue granular powder. Did I read somewhere that you can actually dig out the infected area and pack it partly full of this concentrated power?? Will it not burn the foot??
Can you also make a concentrated solution by boiling water and adding powder until no more disolves and then use it on the sole for thrush???

Farnams cure all antiseptic / proud flesh stopping / clotting agent "Wonder Dust" is 13% copper sulfate.

I'd imagine that if it's safely put directly onto open bleeding wounds, it just might be safe used as described.

[Complete Equine]

One of my clients likes to use a solution of the powdered copper sulfate and organic apple cider vineagar. She swears by it and its a nice alternative for 'health-conscious' folks, or whatever you'd like to call it. I think its a good idea, haven't tried it yet personally. :) Just FYI.

[SarahGreen]

Ok I have another case similar to this one. Check out the pictures and tell me what you think? Here is a summary of the last 2 months.
I have a donkey that has White Line Disease. A vet has not diagnosed this but I myself have spent the last 2 months researching and learning about hooves, WLD, and other hoof problems.

I live in South Alabama.

She has never had any hoof problems. She is 6 years old. Never shod.

I have contacted 3 local farriers and none seem to be concerned. I am told that her hooves are fine and will grow out, but from watching the last 2 months any length that has grown out and trimmed off, new tissue has been damaged and had to be removed higher up in the hoof.

I first noticed some cracks in the hoof wall. This was in August. I proceeded to clean them and see what was going on. There were lots of holes and crevices. Please see pictures. I called farrier (Although I have always done her feet) I wanted to make sure that I had not done anything wrong. Farrier stated that everything looked good, assured me that her hooves were in ok condition, and did a small balanced trim.

I have been treating her with White Lightning soak and spray. At first I soaked every other day for a week, then every 3 days, then once a week. I clean her hooves out 2x day and if needed wash (with ACV) and blow dry them. I have done this everyday for the last 2 months. The reason that I wash them in ACV is that there was an area of clay that she insisted on walking in that would pack in her hooves. The only way to get it out was to wash and scrub. I have since moved her to another pasture with no clay. This is helping tons! I also have her on a pellet 10% feed and Nu-Foot Vet Formula Powder supplement. Before she was eating sweet feed.
This is what I have done and now I need someone to walk me through what I should do next. I have taken many pictures and wrote additional details that may be helpful.

I took pictures 8-22-09. I had cut some hoof wall away and trimmed them a little bit at this point. After that I cleaned them out with a dremel tool to remove damaged tissue.

I don’t think that I was aggressive enough. There were still heavy tracks of fungus damaged tissue. Throughout the next 2 months I trimmed very little but on a weekly or every 2 week basis. I continued treatment.

The latest pictures are as of today, I cleaned them out with dremel tool again and here we are. After I soaked her hooves in White Lighting. I have used the last of White Lighting, I believe that I will purchase Clean Trax next.

I believe her hooves look better but I am very concerned that if I continue treating and let the hooves grow out on there own, the crevices will get deeper and thus resulting in me having to remove more and more. In addition to that, because of removing damaged hoof wall and tissue the toe length is obviously too short. There is one hoof (Right Rear) that needs attention becasue of a large crevice but I cannot remove the damaged tissue without having to rebuild the hoof back. The product that I believe is right for the job is Vettec super fast all in one hoof adhesive, or the Adhere glue on shoe hoof repair. http://www.vettec.com/65/products/superfast.html



I have never done this and do not know the proper instructions besides what I have read on the internet. I am hoping that you can walk me thru this and instruct me on what to do.

Maybe I don't need to do anything else, I don't know.

I am asking for any advice or instructions that you may have. Please see pictures link below. I have them in order of each foot before (8-22-09) and then (11-1-09).

Thank you so much.

CLICK BELOW FOR PICTURES!!!

http://s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz122/dsgreen22/donkey/?albumview=slideshow

[Rick Talbert]

i haven't read all the responses to this, but yes it is not uncommon for one horse in a herd to have WLD. And yes it is not uncommon for a horse to have it in all four hooves (or donkey). Did you miss it 12 weeks ago? IMO, you probably did. But we all probably have, so join the club. I don't think one week of treatment will be sufficient regardless of the product. I also don't think that these resections in the photo are aggressive enough. I base that statement on the observation of what appears to be bacteria and what also appears to be a hollow overhang of the hoof wall at the top of some of the resections. The resected area should be dremelled at a bevelled slope to live tissue. The angle of the slope prevents the area from being trappy and allows treatment. I would have the owner use a product called well horse, and scrub it in with a toothbrush, probably twice a week would be good, until the resected area grows out. If you do not reach and expose the heart of the infection with the resection then it will continue to spread and survive.

[Rick Talbert]

There is one hoof (Right Rear) that needs attention becasue of a large crevice but I cannot remove the damaged tissue without having to rebuild the hoof back. The product that I believe is right for the job is Vettec super fast all in one hoof adhesive, or the Adhere glue on shoe hoof repair. http://www.vettec.com/65/products/superfast.html why can you not remove the damaged tissue without rebuilding the hoof back?

[SarahGreen]

Because if I remove it she won't have anything to walk on. She will be walking on the side of her hoof. I am not a farrier, I just love my donkey and can not find anyone local to come and assist me.

I am treating her more than just once a week. I have been soaking every 4-5 days in White Lighting when it is dry. (no rain) Along with cleaing it out 2x a days. The resections are never packed with dirt or mud.

When it has been raining I keep her stalled. When I let her out I wash and spray 2x a day.

[SarahGreen]

When all this started 2 months ago. I had never heard of WLD. I contacted Vet and Farrier. The Vet did not come out but I sent pics and explained situation.I was told that it looked fine and would grow out!
So now here I am.

[SarahGreen]

OK. I will continue treating and hope that all is well. What about the deep crevice on the Rear Right? Right now I am packing it with cotton soaked in White Lighting everyday.

Thank you so much for helping me.

[mwmyersdvm]

The most common cause of white line separation in my experience is subclinical chronic laminitis. This condition is quite common and often missed in donkeys. This donkey has a number of signs that point to this - toe flares, migrated hoof capsules, white line separations, rings on the hoof wall. Radiographs are in order as well as blood testing for metabolic problems. You need to consider the diet of this animal in order to get this under control.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[housefull]

Yes, excellent for mud fever rain scald and trush, everykind of rot. Used of all oldtimers,(only known of medicine in past plus ofcourse boose and tar) good for horses people caddle sheeps painting etc.

[SarahGreen]

My last post was a while ago but I thought I would update. I continued to care for her hooves. I had dozens of different opinions on this. I took her to the vet and contacted anyone that would listed and help me. Everyone had a different way to treat it. Some I knew were just ****. Others had to look for somthing I wasn't doing right. No one would tell me Do this! Do that! Most just said, it looks good just watch it.... Needs to grow out... But I still noticed that the hoof wall very slowly crumbling when I would pick out her hooves.
This is what worked!
SOAK IN CLEAN TRAX! I wish I would have used this first! Not White Lighting and all the other products. I bought 4 bottles. Still have 2 in fridge.
Soak in boots. (Do it right)
Then allow hooves to dry before turning out. I did this 2 weeks apart and it worked!
In a day or two start using kopertox.
Kopertox painted on the resections 3x a week. (Frog if needed, do not get on hair line, don't be sloppy)
If there are any holes in the hoof where dirt will get packed and stuck, pack with cotton soaked in Kopertox.
It puts a water proof barrier and bacteria/fungus can not live.
I kept her hooves picked out and clean and continued treatment.
I also massaged Hoof Magic on the hairline and hoof wall 2x a week.
Oh, I also evaluated her diet and created a nutritional plan to best meet her needs.

I will take more pictures and post them later but the results are very good.
In a few months she will have grown all resections out!