gauging new lamina connection?

[shoulderin]

I was reading on some other hoof related boards
that you need to wait 2 full complete
hoof replacement cycles before the foundered horse will
have a tight laminar connection - is there any truth to
this ? (instead of just one hoof replacement cycle)
Also cannot the connection quality be gauged by the
hoof tubles (straight - no curves - seems to suggest
a good tight connection) and the white line being
tight - upon each new trim -- wouldn't those factors
point to a good connection that has grown in?

and once the new hoof is there and the horse is sound
is he not cured and ready for activity as any other?

[mwmyersdvm]

There is no "cut and dried" time line for laminar reconnection. It is dependent on how severe the original disconnection was and how well the horse recovered. It boils down to a veterinary judgement call.

[Phil Armitage]

Laminitis can be anywhere from very mild with no tearing to extreme where the horse sinks. It takes aprox. a full year to regrow an entirely new foot. As the foot grows the laminae is reconnected. Problems that occur during the year are things like another bout of laminits or tearing the new growth from mechanical strain. These things can prolong a healthy connection and cause set backs where it could take a few months to another year. The key to founder is to catch it early and stop the cause, proper trim and shoeing if needed. Every case is different, every horse is different and every foot is different. I respectfully disagree with Dr. Myres that it is a Veternarians call, it is better if all partys work as a team the horse owner knows the horse the Farrier knows the feet and the Veterinarian knows the medical end of it. By working as a team and everyone putting in there ideas and observations better decisions are made.

[mwmyersdvm]

You are correct, Phil, in that the farrier and veterinarian should work as a team to resolve lameness issues. I am in a unique position because I shoe most of my laminitic cases personally. However, while the farrier's input is necessary and should be directed to the veterinarian, it would be prudent to allow the veterinarian the final say as his insurance covers him in the case of disaster while the farrier's does not. And you know how these cases do love to become disasters at the slightest provocation.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[Phil Armitage]

Well Dr. Myres, I respect your opionion and you are unique, unfortunately this is not the norm and many Vets lack understanding of a healthy foot never mind a complex problem like laminitis. I feel each Farrier has to figure out who they are. Personaly I do not think a degree makes the professional. I think the individual makes the professional. So I see myself as at least equal or better and I am also insured (just good buisness sense don't you think?). Like you, I am not going to let sue crazy people scare me out of being a professional. The only thing that will scare me out of the profession is my back. :D Keep in mind we are both professionals and have obligations that go with the territory. The owner is also very needed in the eqaution for the sake of the horse in daily and long term care. I have seen many owners totaly confused by there Vets and do the wrong thing because of a misunderstanding. Best to leave it up to the Farrier to explain things in laymens terms so the horse will recieve the correct treatment. The better the communications the less likely to be sued. Also the more everyone is involved and singing off the same sheet of music the less of a burden it is on each of us and individuals. Don't they teach this in college? :confused:

[shoulderin]

Dr. Myers and Phil -
I realize that a vet and farriers opinion is needed to
make the call but for the sake of discussion can
you tell if you one can gauge the quality of the laminar
connection by the white line - hoof quality, MRI - --
etc - I just want to know how one determines if
the connection is now tight and ready for work - or is
it always really just a guess?

[Phil Armitage]

Things to look for that will tell you if the feet are doing good. The whiteline should be tight about 1/4". Cup in the sole, no rings, no dishing in toe. Knowing sole thickness and posistion of the coffin bone by taking x-rays will also help figure out what your horse can handle. You could post a picture and we could give you an idea if the feet are doing better. Farrier and Vets are not the only ones that should make the call or not, the owner plays a big role in this. You as the owner needs to learn all you can about it and also use commen sense. Many Farriers and Vets are hesitant in giveing advice because of how easy a miscommunication can occur and then the owner is pointing fingers. Part of being a good horsemen or women is also knowing your horse and doing the right things on a daily basis. A Farrier and Vet only sees the horse a few time a year you see your horse everyday.

[caballus]

Looking at the new growth at the periople and down to the toe yes, tubules should be tight, evenly spaced and straight. Looking at the growth at the side of the heel should be just as tight and smooth as the growth at the front of the hoof.The wall should be smooth without any flare; looking from the solar view one can guestimate where the coffin bone is by the amount of concavity around the true apex of the frog. The sole at that point should be approximately 3/8 - 1/2" thick to the toe of the P3. After 8 months to a year's growth, the hoof is brand new, inside-out. The hoof should have good concavity, (cup) as Phil pointed out, and overall be balanced, level and solid. If there have been no complications to the recovery of the laminitis, the hoof looks healthy and has been cared for properly during recovery and rehab, the horse is striding out without any lameness, then it should be safe to say that the horse has recovered and is ready to go gradually back into work. I can't see that a 2nd round of "new growth" would be necessary, personally, but perhaps some conscientious care should be given for the first year back into work. But, all the *shoulds* spoken/written doesn't make it so and not being able to see the hooves and see the horse move and 'feel' the horse is difficult. The horse owner *should* know the horse well enough to tell given all the baselines are in place.

Yesterday I just got on a little gal who had a penetrating sinker just 7 months ago. She has another month or month 1/2 to go until the hoof is in completely new. One can see how the heel has grown faster than the toe (more stimulation from the heel-first landing and the weight bearing more to the heels during recovery) and another couple of months of keeping the heels where they belong and this mare *should* be good to go. She is still a bit tender on this leg during abrupt turns but I'm not sure whether it is from arthritis in the pastern or from the hoof, itself, or even a combination of the two. Regardless, the ouchiness tells me she isn't ready for work or being under rider regularly, again, just yet. She was soft, willing and kind with me yesterday in just halter and lead, bareback for the entire 10 mins I was on her. She did not display any adverse reactions to being ridden. Her body remained relaxed and soft. Her eyes remained soft and alert and she was definitely more interested in me (she watches out for her rider) than in anything else except where she was going. If she were not still a bit ouchy then this gal would be carefully, gently and slowly being brought back into work at this point; gentle, smooth trail work or merely going for gentle riding in a large arena on solid, smooth ground with a light rider. She trots, canters and gallops, bucks and farts around on her own in her paddock and exhibits no extreme discomfort in her demeanor or gaits. Her body is back to "normal" phsyical appearance with no indications of pain, stress or tension. But, because she still is ouchy then she is saying she needs more time for further healing.

So, the owner needs to know what the healthy hooves should look like plus know the horse well enough to "read" the horse. In the final determination it is the horse who will let you know for sure.

--caballus :)

BTW -- there are several acupressure points that can be assessed that will also tell of any inflammation in the hooves; around the girth on the sides of the horse and on either loin. When a horse is laminitic, these points will be warm(er) and, when stimulated, will bring on adverse reactions (Many "girthy" horses actually have pain in their hooves and the act of tightening the girth or cinch aggravates the acupressure point) so one can use those points for determining the readiness to go back into work, also.

[Phil Armitage]

Well said Cabullus. If owners do not know, they need to learn.