Peeling hoof or quarter crack???

[tipptoez]

I am hoping you all might have some input on what this may be, and what caused it. Our other gelding (not my problem child) had the medial side of his left front hoof show up like this two days ago. Considering the problems we have had with my horse, all three have been getting hoof inspections nightly so I know this did not grow down from the coronary band. However I can feel a dent there, which sort of feels like an impact of some kind. He is not lame at all.

It has been WET, WET, WET here- could this be a factor? It looks like the heel of his hoof has peeled off, more layers near the bulb and less near the quarter where the "crack" is. Sort of like layers of an onion. I have noticed in the past that he has had little "tags" on his heels, which can best be described as looking like people's hang nails when their cuticles get too long. He is 6 weeks out from his last shoeing, set to see the new farrier along with my horse next Monday. From what I have learned here I think his hooves are long am I off here?

Pictures attached, I hope they show up ok

Thanks! Denise

[Gary Hill]

This hoof seems to me to be very short shod. That means the shoe is too small for this foot. The heels are also way too long and the heels behind the crack need lots more support. A few differant views from differant angles would help? Good Luck! Gary

[calshoer]

Wow. Tipptoez is an excellent online name because it appears your horse is on HIS tippytoes. Even considering that he is due for shoes, there WAY too much heel and consequently everything run far forward under the leg. I would certainly discuss the foot preperation for shoeing (heel trimming) with your farrier. If those heels get trimmed down where they belong , the horse could be in a size or more larger shoe and the whole base of support would be back under the limb instead of drifting out in front of it.
As for the 'peeling', that is all it appears to be just ,a litle bit of old heel tissue like a hangnail. Nothing more. It can be trimmed off. I am a lot more comcerned about the foot balance. Ican guarantee if you look at the sole ,draw a line at the widest poart of the foot that you have twice as much ahead of the line as behind it,. and that is exactly opposite of a balanced helathy foot.
You say you are having problems with all your horses? Why? Patty

[tipptoez]

Thank you Gary,

Here are some more pictures. I attached some pictures to my original post of what I called a "tag". These are on his left hind.

The pictures here are more of his left front and one front conformation shot He is "conformationally challanged" :D

Denise

[calshoer]

Well at the same time I posted my last post, you sent some more pictures! I took the liberty of marking them up to show you where I would be trimming and placing the breakover point if it were one of my cases. leaving excess heel is the way many farriers are taught to keep the foot pastern in alignment, (so please do NOT go running to your farier and say he is wrong)
Unfortunately it is not the apropriate way to create bone alignment because everything runs forward and causes secondary problems.
Getting all that heel of will support the FROG, which will then align the bones internally becausethe frog supports the coffin joint and aligns it. On your pictures the red lines are the heel trim and the breakover point I would use. The sole view has yellow lines indicating the current base of support and the solar area ratios, marked from about the widest part of the foot. You can see as I predicted before that the length from center line is much longer in front than to the rear. Horses with that ratio commonly land toe first, may stumble, forge, pull off shoes, have heel pain, may get corns and eventually, (probably) develop navicular syndrome.
The circles indicate some of the areas of strain on the hoofwall due to too much foot. The side of the foot is spreading out over the shoe because it is too tall. The circle in the hairline is where this strain shows up as the bruise on the lateral picture, and is where the horse could eventualy develop a quater crack.
The red lines are about where I would trim those heels, leaving ALL the sole intact ahead of the center line, not trimming hardly any toe, and whjere I would place the breakover of the shoe across the elongated stretched toe. Applying this principle CAN be done without creating sole pressure ONLY IF the farrier ONLY trims on the rear half of the foot and leaves the front half completely alone on the bottom. If he trims sole and the toe in the front half, then tries to get those heels down where they belong , he is in for trouble. He has to know how to apply the prottocol safely or not try to do it all all. Patty

[tipptoez]

Patty,

You have said what I have been thinking. We have been trying to discuss this with our shoer, I even got him to watch Gene on RFD and offered to buy him the videos, but no changes. We have been watching what we feel is the hooves getting longer and longer, but the shoer said no their feet are good. Since we are not farriers it kind of falls under "who are we to say". I have posted here about my gelding twice, last time it is under the abscess thread yucky stuff thread, "multiple abscesses or something else LONG". His pictures are there. My gelding really does walk on his tippy toes, jabs them actually and we have been trying to deal with is since September. The whole long saga is in that post.

Attached are three pictures of our morgan/mustang mare who used to have really great feet. She could really go barefoot I think since she came from the reservation's wild herd here. She now looks very long with contracted heels. This is just my opinion and I am not a farrier so I don't know if it is correct or not. It just has seemed over the last 6-9 months that just a little too much has been left each time and now it is out of control. All three of our horses are seeing the new farrier I talked about in my other post next Monday.

Any input on her feet? These horse have been on a 6-8 week schedule since we have owned them.

Thank you! Denise

[Jeanie Connors]

Holy mackeral! From the photos you posted in your first and second post, I would echo what Gary and Patty have said: heels way too long, shoe too small, and the "tags"...probably normal excess growth (my horses get them, too).

I also noticed in your first set of pictures, it looks like one of the hooves isn't even sitting flat on the ground; one heel is suspended in the air. The shoe is off kilter, too, which may not be a terrible thing (I am not a farrier, have not shod a horse), but I would suspect it doesn't help the imbalance.

The hooves look crumbly, and just too long. The constant wet conditions certainly don't help the matter, but I'm willing to bet the next trim *should* be able to remove all of the peeling crumbly layers on the bottom edge there. The sole view in the second set of pictures, too, showed *very* overgrown bars; they will cover the sole eventually if not taken back where they belong.

Here are a couple pictures of my horse's feet, sole views. On the front hoof, you can see where the bars are and look a little crumbly; they need to be trimmed back. The hind hoof shows the bars worn down on their own (there is also a little tag on the left side of the photo..heel). I hope this helps you see the bars :) .

[caballus]

Nice lookin' hooves, Jeanie!

I can only "ditto" Patty ... those hooves need some corrective trimming/balancing, Tipptoez!

*S* --Gwen

[calshoer]

Tipptoez, all I can say is that since you have seen your horses feet look more and more long, with heels getting taller and taller, and the farrier won't discuss a possible change in protocol, it is probably time to get another opinion, another farrier to take a look. They are YOUR horses and the farrier should be at least willing to discuss your concerns. Let us know how the new farrier next week works out. . Patty

[tipptoez]

Patty, Jeanie and Gwen,

thank you all for the time and input. Patty and Jeanine, I really appreciate the pictures and drawings. It helps to see everything all at once. (BTW Jeanine I am envious of your horse's feet! I can see very clearly the problem with the bars in our horses. All three look the same - BAD)

All of this confirms what I thought I had been learning by reading here and at other sites since September. I have had discussions with our shoer about Gene's shows, about the sole callus and bringing the heels back to the widest point of the frog and trimming to the live sole plane. We actually discussed this while looking at my gelding's feet one day with the information I printed out from the Hope for Soundness website. That was the day I offered to buy the NB tapes for him if he was interested in them. He wasn't interested.

I also printed out Mike Salvoldi's UST article from the AFA website- all three parts with the pictures. Plus some stuff from Dr. O' Grady's website on long toes/underun heels, Hans H. Castelins article "Trimming and shoeing in the sagittal plane" from the 17th farriers Conference November 2000, and Dr. Tracy A Turner's article " Objective Assessment Hoof Balance". This was all back in September when my gelding first started having lameness issues. Our shoer took them and read them all and our horses feet still look like this now.

It is so hard for us as owners though, since our shoer has been trimming and shoeing horses for 20+ years and here I am a horse owner for barely 4 years. How can I see these things and he doesn't? I feel like who am I to tell him how to correctly trim? I just don't have any leverage in this and I didn't want to offend him. He is really a very nice man and very concerned about the welfare of horses. However, he obviously has learned a different way to judge how to trim. One that doesn't seem to be doing so well with our particular horses.

Due to lameness, the vet recommended I haul my horse to a new farrier for corrective shoeing. We have already scheduled the other two to be done by this new farrier when my horse goes next (Monday). Based on everything that has been said here, it seems to confirm we have made the correct decision. We greatly appreciate ALL of you here for being honest and straight forward with what you see. It is good to know that the crack and missing hoof wall isn't a major problem at this point.....disheartening that everything else is so bad though!

Denise

PS. the Tipptoez doesn't actually have anything to do with the horses. It is the first letters of my cat's names. Yes, too many tigers in my living room!

[tipptoez]

Saw the new farrier yesterday. It just still amazes me that such small changes in how he trims makes such a big difference in the horse. He said both this gelding and mare had very nice hoof consistancy, good strong horn, just needed some balance corrected. Then low and behold bye-bye long heels. Here is the before and after of the gelding's left front. And he is in a size larger shoe now :)

Denise