Other options?

[Jeanie Connors]

I have been wondering about this since joining this forum, and seeing that there is a great wealth of information here, *and* seeing so many of you obviously encouraging horses to go barefoot when they can.

This is *not* meant to become an argument about barefoot vs. shoes or anything like that at all, but I really want all of you farriers' opinions about this.


You have a client's horse, they would like them to remain barefoot but really don't mind if he needs shoes. For argument's sake, let's say it's a new horse, owner has had him for a few months but the horse has seemed a little sore or tender with trail riding 3 or 4 times a week, through woods, over some roads, type of stuff. Not lame, per say, and not constantly, but here and there...sore. You take a look at his feet and see a few minor adjustments that could be made which might be contributing to him being sore. Certainly, you would make those few tweaks with a good trim, but would you recommend shoes for an off-and-on sore horse right away?

There is obviously a lot of "it depends" wiggle room in this predicament, and I know it. I guess the heart of the question is, with a sore horse, do you think of shoes right away, or do you think of a trim imbalance that could be fixed and could leave the horse going without shoes?

I promise, this is not a fight :) . I really want to know how you all think about this sort of predicament (sore horse, obviously something needs to change).

[Phil Armitage]

That is a good question, I will share a recent situation. Got a call last week about a horse that has been barefoot. They see that he seems off when working and requested he be shod. I set and apointment up with them and told the owner over the phone that it is possible the horse is off because he needs a trim, may not need shoes. Trimmed him Saturday, he did not need shoes, the feet just needed to be trimmed. The owner asked why was the horse off, I explained what I saw, the foot is in great shape, good sole thickness, but the bars and heels are over grown and this is probably what is causeing him to be off. I also explained that if I had noticed that the foot had no excessive growth and the sole was thin, then he probably would need shoes. I explained to the owner the reasons for shoeing, traction, support and protection, right now he has enough traction, support and protection without shoes.

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Jeanie,

You touch what I think is one of the biggest issues in the barefoot/shoeing discussion.

Important here is to realize that every horse shoer trims. None excluded. Its just that shoers have an extra to offer, shoes, pads, packings, the whole nine yards.

The big plus of trimming ánd shoeing is you can do something right away and get a horse comfortable right away. Basically shoes allow you to kind of 'freeze' the situation your trimming created. Also shoeing allows you to address breakover and support issues, much more then you'ld be able to do with just a trim. Further shoes allow you to use protective materials like pads.

I agree that a lot of foot problems can be solved by just trimming but that may take more time than solving the problem with trimming ánd shoes. In cases where time is not a problem fine, that choice is the owners I guess, but in cases where time is an issue (laminitis) IMO sticking to just trims is not providing the best care possible.

Obviously another situation where time is an issue is performance horses. That kind of horse needs problems solved fast simply because horses and trainers can not afford to loose training days e.g on a futurity prospect.

And of course let's not forget the situation where the horse would simply not be able to perform w/o shoes. A reiner would be one example.

Just some thoughts.



Ronald Aalders

[Jeanie Connors]

Thank you, both :) .

Phil, that was an excellent example! Thank you for sharing it :) .

Ronald, it *is* a key issue in the whole mess, and I really believe there doesn't need to be so much strife between "farriers" and "trimmers". Like you've said, a good trim is a good trim (and a good trim is everything, for staying barefoot or for being shod). Sadly, not every farrier trims well, but will shoe anyway...maybe the person who would have shod Phil's client's horse not knowing what else he could do.

I appreciate your thoughts :) .

[Ronald Aalders]

No doubt Jeanie, not all trimmers will trim well either.


Ronald Aalders

[Gary Hill]

Just this morning my first stop would have been to just trim three horses. Last night when I called to confirm their appointment the owners told me they wanted one shod all around and the other two just shod on the fronts. When I arrived the feet were in great shape, still had the little roll to the toes I always put on a barefoot. The reason they wanted me to shoe was the fact that they are riding more ,as the weather is getting warmer and when they rode this weekend the horses were alittle tender on the rock roads, and the feet of all three have old scar's on the coronary bands that have produced lifetime cracks. The owners were worried about them getting worse by riding them without shoes. They made the call as to shoe them, I am providing them my services. I again would have left them barefoot but the owners made the decision on their own. Gary

[Red Amor]

Hy
my simple answer to your question is
As the owner has requested the horse be bare foot , we will with in reason try to keep the horse so
if we believe a proper trim will/ may do the trick , then try it and see , a few day ,a week
but if the ware factor exceeds the groth and or the horse canot do its work
then knock off give him time to become comfortable again wheather you help by adding protecion boots /shoes or the time off to let him grow some foot

we are mostly governed by time and useage
will/ can the owner give you/and the horse off or does the horse have to work on to the event

Ive had owners that wouldnt give me the time to remove shoes and spell the horse after begging the for some time but willing sign the barefooters orders for many months off work

your right though , something need to change , the horse needs help
maybe you need to take the lead

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

A few years ago I bought this un broke 5 yr 17.5 TB who stood around the TB farm shoeless all his life to be my killer dressage horse. The first few times I rode him I didn't have shoes on him and I rode him on some really awful ground and he was fine. The first thing I did when I got him home was shoe him because his feet were a real mess and the fronts were totally differant one being 2 sizes differant with a trimmed angle of 49 the other was 53. Anyway that winter I boarded him at an indoor so I could have him up to speed by spring. I pulled the shoes and he came up lame being riden in a sand arena so I put shoes back on and he was immediatly sound 3 years later he wears the same size shoes and still has a lower heel on on side but I pretty much have him matched up. This winter I kept him home and shoeless and he been fine. I guess the moral of the story is if they need shoes they need shoes.

Kevin

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

This is the horse I talked about in my last post showing the front feet. Anyway 4 yr's later pretty hard to see a differance.

kevin

[Double C Forge]

Nice looking fella there cowboy.......but for the life of me I can't figure out where I would dally my rope on that contraption on his back..........LOL :D

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

I followed the cutting circuit for 15 years and I used that saddle at one practice because I didn't have my cutting saddle and took a lot of ribbing. I just told them when cutting became an olympic event that it would be in an english saddle. People ask me that question all the time I just tell em it's simple I just tie the rope around my waist, hee hee. Actually this rig works better.

Kevin

[cowboy_bc]

Hi again,

Thanks that fella is a much bigger fella now he's 8 and really filled out and 18 hh so he's not much fun anywhere there are trees and he's scared sh**less of the cows and buffalo so he's no cow horse but he can jump over 4'.

Kevin

[Jeanie Connors]

The first few times I rode him I didn't have shoes on him and I rode him on some really awful ground and he was fine. The first thing I did when I got him home was shoe him because his feet were a real mess and the fronts were totally differant one being 2 sizes differant with a trimmed angle of 49 the other was 53.

So that's a "no"? ;) :D

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=cowboy_bc]Hi all,
A few years ago I bought this un broke 17.5 TB

Is that "hands" or some metric measurement? :D

In a subsequent posting, you say that now he is filled out and 18hh. Is that the equivalent of 17.4? How did he manage to shrink? :eek:

Inquiring minds just want to know. :D

Rick

[Dave Purves]

You know Rick, when I joined the Army in 1991, I was 5'11, after making 38 jumps I got out of the Army in 1995 at 5'10". No kidding, maybe this big guy is just getting a little compacted from jumping.?lol That's like going to a clients and they tell you they have a "stud colt" that needs done. What in the heck is a "stud, colt"? I know that a stud is a place that stands stallions, and I know that a colt is a young male horse, but never heard of a "stud, colt". Drives me nuts when I hear that, and the people that call all young horses "colts". I just want to smack them, like they've never heard the term "filly". Oh, well.
Dave

17.5 hands = 18.1 hands

[Shockn&Gucci_rule]

That's like going to a clients and they tell you they have a "stud colt" that needs done. What in the heck is a "stud, colt"? I know that a stud is a place that stands stallions, and I know that a colt is a young male horse, but never heard of a "stud, colt".
Dave

Yes, a colt is a young male horse, BUT, a colt may or may not be gelded. If they tell you it is a stud colt, you know that it is an "intact" young male horse.

Best wishes,
~patience

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all.

Oop's I'm so used to useing decimal rather than fractional so when I wrote 17.5 I meant 17 1/2 or 73 cm Anyway pretty big with a head thats 18 cm longer than any of our QH's and like I said he can jump 53 cm with out even taking a run at. Hee hee.

Kevin

[Dave Purves]

Honest mistake Kevin, I thought it was funny though, we all have clients that have a 16.6 QH that's a world champion and down and back.

Patience, why not just call it a gelding then? And a stud is not a horse, I repeat, a stud is not a horse, there are alot of studs in Ky. Those are the barns where they stand stallions, at stud.
geesh
Dave

[mwmyersdvm]

I did a quick measurement on the computer screen on the bay horse and if one assumes his hoof toe is 4 inches (i.e. one hand), he barely makes 16 hands. There are very few 18 hand horses out there, but there do seem to be a lot of "regulation" measuring stick with four to six inches of the bottom removed

[calshoer]

I just did the same thing. The hoof is about 1/20th of the whole horse height at the withers. Assuming the *side*of the hoof at the midline is 3" tall, that makes a 60" horse which is only 15 hands. Even if the hoof is 1/21st in porportion, that is still under 16 hands. Very average size horse. Patty

[Gary_Miller]

Using following remote sensing formulas for calculating distance on a photo.

The scale of the Photo is 1:11.
This is derived by dividing the Photo distance (PD) by the a know Groound Distanced (GD). In this case I assumed that the length of the hoof wall from the Coronet to the toe(GD) is 3 1/4 inches, and a PD of .3". This gives us a Photo Scale Recprocal(PSR) of 11.

If you used 3" like Patty then the PSR is 10

To find the height of the horse we simply multipy the hieght of the horse in the photo by the PSR. In this case I measured the horse to be 6".

6 X 11 = 66"
66"/4" = 16.5 hands

Using pattys figure it comes out the same as she figured.

6 X 10 = 60
60/4 = 15

In order for this animal to be 18 hands the hoof lenght would have to be 3 1/2".

If I understand correctly on average that would make the toe lenght to long for proper breakover.

Gary

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Not wanting to be the butt of and argument here is another veiw. The horse on the left is 15hh so given that info what might the horse on the right be given that a hand is 4". The pic was taken about the same time as the other, 3 years ago.

Kevin

[Red Amor]

big horse mate yeah;)

[Dave Purves]

Why would anyone want to discount the size of Kevin's horse? Come on, have a little respect. What does it matter to you how tall that horse is? Really, pretty childish
Dave

[J.H. shoeing]

That is a big horse and look he has a pony as a pet.