Navicular? Coffin joint? X-rays Incl.

[Sparklin]

My mare has been barefoot on her front her whole life - minus about 4 months with shoes last year. She's got a good wide hoof and thick frog. She's not "rock sensitive" and can walk across gravel, pavement, etc. She's 14.1h, in excellent shape, and at the time in full time reining training. She's been in training since Dec. 8th. She's a 5yo. She really hasn't been ridden hard up until now. I rode her about 2-3x a week last year.

Here's where it's weird.

When you pull her out of the stall, she's sore. She'll act gimpy and almost appear to tiptoe. Left is worse. She also seems to be sore in the shoulders. If you ride her for about 5 minutes she's no longer sore and works out of it.

This happened to her last year towards the end of the season. I pulled her shoes, turned her out to pasture and had a farrier diagnose her with the short leg / long leg syndrome. He said this may or may not be causing her soreness issues. She's had chiropractic work that showed a little improvement. He showed me the differences in her shoulders, length of leg etc. She was out to pasture for 4 months and by December she was 100% sound again. I sent her to training on December 8th.

Towards the end of January the soreness when coming out of the stall started happening again. If you walk her around or go ahead and saddle up and ride, within 5 minutes she was fine. She warmed up out of it. However, the cause for concern now is that she's not warming up out of it. The past two times my trainer rode her, she didn't warm up out of it, so he called the vet out.

Flex test..
Scale 0-5
Right = 0
Left = 1

When she's ridden it appears that she favors the left so he only x-rayed the left.

Links:
x-ray 1 (http://www.huddlestonreining.com/xrays/image.jpg)
x-ray 2 (http://www.huddlestonreining.com/xrays/image2.jpg)
x-ray 3 (http://www.huddlestonreining.com/xrays/image4.jpg)

Just trying to get more ideas to pass to my trainer. He's never really seen symptoms like hers so it has him baffled. He originally thought navicular but the vet doesn't think so.

The vet suspected her coffin joint was giving her problems. He's injecting both of them and prescribed a 2 degree wedge shoe. Of course my trainer's farrier will also be looking at the x-rays when he comes out but that won't be until next week.

Thanks in advance.
Tina

[PerformanceHorseshoeing]

farrier diagnose her with the short leg / long leg syndrome.

I've never heard of this. Is this a real thing or someone just trying to put a name to something?

[Jaye Perry]

Equifarmette1;Research limb length disparities, it's for real.



HMMMMMM?

Not even in school yet. Keep learning:D

[Rick Burten]

What other diagnostic exams/test/ were done?

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Sparklin in gray

My mare has been barefoot on her front her whole life - minus about 4 months with shoes last year. She's got a good wide hoof and thick frog. She's not "rock sensitive" and can walk across gravel, pavement, etc. She's 14.1h, in excellent shape, and at the time in full time reining training. She's been in training since Dec. 8th. She's a 5yo. She really hasn't been ridden hard up until now. I rode her about 2-3x a week last year.

Here's where it's weird.

When you pull her out of the stall, she's sore. She'll act gimpy and almost appear to tiptoe. Left is worse. She also seems to be sore in the shoulders. If you ride her for about 5 minutes she's no longer sore and works out of it.

IME, the vast majority of "shoulder lameness" not resultant of direct trauma blocks out with a PD.

This happened to her last year towards the end of the season. I pulled her shoes, turned her out to pasture and had a farrier diagnose her with the short leg / long leg syndrome.

Technically speaking, diagnosis is not within a farrier's purview.

He said this may or may not be causing her soreness issues. She's had chiropractic work that showed a little improvement. He showed me the differences in her shoulders, length of leg etc. She was out to pasture for 4 months and by December she was 100% sound again. I sent her to training on December 8th.

How exactly was this evaluation made? Folks with high dollar software have been trying for years to evaluate gait, but the devil is in the details.

Towards the end of January the soreness when coming out of the stall started happening again. If you walk her around or go ahead and saddle up and ride, within 5 minutes she was fine. She warmed up out of it. However, the cause for concern now is that she's not warming up out of it. The past two times my trainer rode her, she didn't warm up out of it, so he called the vet out.

The "N" word comes to mind. Does she try to go toe-down-first when she first comes out of the stall?

Just trying to get more ideas to pass to my trainer. He's never really seen symptoms like hers so it has him baffled. He originally thought navicular but the vet doesn't think so.

Navicular has come to be a catch-all term for various heel lamenesses.

The vet suspected her coffin joint was giving her problems.

Did your veterinarian do a series of nerve blocks in an effort to pinpoint the location of the pain? Did he block the coffin joint before any other?

He's injecting both of them and prescribed a 2 degree wedge shoe. Of course my trainer's farrier will also be looking at the x-rays when he comes out but that won't be until next week.

Other than for locating fractures or establishing a baseline, radiographs are pretty much useless in the diagnosis of most navicular problems. Given the history you've recounted, I'd be interested in knowing exactly how the vet determined the problem was in the coffin joint, why he felt a 2º wedge would be beneficial, and why no support for the coffin joint was prescribed.

The late Burney Chapman is known primarily for his work with founders, but he also pioneered the mechanical treatment of pathologies affecting the coffin joint with various forms of direct support, treatments that've become almost SOP today - hence my question about the vet's failure to prescribe some form of support.

[THamilton]

I agree with Tom And Rick. More is needed to make a further dianosis. Pictures of the both front feet, Side, front, rear and bottom shots after the foot is clean and on dry, level gound.

I see in X-ray 2 a larger gap on one side of the joint between the top of P3 adn bottom of P2. In X-ray one I possibly see a slight broken back pastern axis. Not sure. The photos were rather large on my screen and I had to move around them to get full.

I believe that a series of nerve blocks would be more appropriate in diagnosising the lameness BEFORE injecting the joint. Otherwise you might be masking an issue that will rear its ugly/uglier head later on. I would also ask for x-rays of the other front foot. There may (note italics) be a compensation issue happening. Doubtful... but you do not know. Also you have a baseline for the future if further lamness issues arise.

Buena Suerte
Tony

[Sparklin]

Thank you for your replies. I'm in email contact with the vet who did the exam on her so I will forward your questions on to him.

I really appreciate the thoroughness in which you all work. I am sure I missed something the vet told me because it was a LOT of information for me to absorb over the phone.

Thanks!

[Sparklin]

IME, the vast majority of "shoulder lameness" not resultant of direct trauma blocks out with a PD.

I'm sorry Tom I'm not savvy on terms. What is PD?


...She was out to pasture for 4 months and by December she was 100% sound again. I sent her to training on December 8th.

How exactly was this evaluation made? Folks with high dollar software have been trying for years to evaluate gait, but the devil is in the details.


I considered her sound when I could ride her without her showing any soreness issues. I had been watching her like a hawk for months while she played out in the pasture. I rode her once on a trail ride in November and she showed no soreness after the trailer-ride (which was another problem we had hauling to shows - bad soreness when getting off the trailer). She didn't start showing the soreness problems again until the end of January.


The "N" word comes to mind. Does she try to go toe-down-first when she first comes out of the stall?

It appears to me she does hit toe first when walking out of the stall.


Navicular has come to be a catch-all term for various heel lamenesses.

So I've come to realize... lol

Did your veterinarian do a series of nerve blocks in an effort to pinpoint the location of the pain? Did he block the coffin joint before any other?
IIRC yes, he did do a series of nerve blocks. Though I don't know in which order. I will ask.


...Given the history you've recounted, I'd be interested in knowing exactly how the vet determined the problem was in the coffin joint, why he felt a 2º wedge would be beneficial, and why no support for the coffin joint was prescribed.

I'm curious to what exactly is "coffin joint support." Is it a special shoe or what? I'll be glad to mention that to him.

[Sparklin]

According to my vet..

"The horse is getting coffin joint support and the broken back axis is being addressed. Also, yes nerve blocks were done and the lameness was eliminated with a pd nerve block."

I've done a google search for coffin joint support and I haven't found anything.

[Auventera]

I don't normally comment on these types of threads because I'm not a farrier and I don't have the experience that the guys here do. But I do have experience with a 14.1 hand stock horse who is sore in the mornings and sore getting off the trailer. :rolleyes: So I'll pass on what I've learned in my journey with her.

I found out one thing with these stock horses, and that is that they DO tend to get sore in the shoulders and scapula area because they are generally built downhill, they aren't very light on their feet, they're big heavy animals, they're worked hard, and their muscle mass is tremendous. Much more so than a lighter bodied animal. I've been told by two vets that care of the musculature is CRITICAL. I have a big bodied bulldog stock horse and I've seen her walk off a trailer crippled and 5 or 10 minutes later you'd never guess anything was wrong. I have been told to only stall her as much as necessary and try to keep her turned out. I've also been told that stretching, proper diet, and massage are all great tools for these types of horses. Even if they are regularly worked and in good shape, they can still have insulin issues. I am careful not to feed my stock horse much grain or rich hay. She gets beet pulp, grass hay, and a ration balancer. You could talk to your vet or nutritionist about evaluating your diet.

Radiographs look at bone. They don't give you an overall picture of health of the horse. Be sure to assess EVERY aspect of husbandry before relying on radiographs.

I too am getting gargantuan size pictures so I'll try to comment on what I "think" I see. I too see a negative HPA on the dorsal view. Also, there seems to be an excess of bone material on the lateral palmar process, moreso than the medial. I understand that horses generally weight the lateral heel slightly before the medial, and particularly if the horse is toed in (like mine), the lateral aspect of the pedal bone may develop more quickly.

Dorsopalmar rads on my stock horse shows a slightly larger lateral palmar process than the medial. The equine lameness vet said she may be just starting to develop a bit of sidebone to the lateral ungular cartilage. I am NOT an expert in evaluating radiographs and I'm sure the pros here can clear this up if I've spoken incorrectly. I am only passing on info as I understand it to be.

Edited to add: Has anyone put hoof testers on the horse's heels and on the central axis of the foot over the coffin joint? I would be curious if there was any reaction?? My stock horse was at a 35 mile LD ride last year and she was stiff after the trailer ride. St*pid me was trying to rush her to the pre-ride vet exam so I didnt' have to do it in the morning. (Darned work schedule anyway....) I should have taken her for a 5 mile ride to limber her up. But I didn't. The vet said she was lame. First thing the ride vets did was put the testers on her - 9 different locations on all 4 feet. Maximum pressure safe without causing a bruise. No reaction at all. Not even an ear flick. They tested her a couple of times over the coffin joint, and the heels. Navicular pain is so common on these big quarter horses. They vetted me through and then said they wanted to do a real thorough gait analysis at my first vet check the next day. We did and they said she looked fantastic. They agreed with what my regular vets said that stock horses just get REALLY "stove up" with those big muscle groups and they warm out of it. She got better, and stronger as the ride went on that day. She also had the lowest heart rate they'd seen all day which was a real surprise. (Just a note - no I have no endurance goals for this horse. She just went along to a couple of rides to babysit the youngster.)

So this is just "MY" personal experiences with owning a brick shat house. :D It might be worth talking to your vet about.

[Auventera]

What happened to my post?! :confused: I just posted a big message, it showed up on the board, and now it's gone.

[Jaye Perry]

What happened to my post?! :confused: I just posted a big message, it showed up on the board, and now it's gone.

It was full of Blather, that you didn't examine the pastern joint in the X-rays & sole depth in the caudal portion of the foot in the a/p, so the moon bats confiscated it!!!!!!:eek:

[Auventera]

It was full of Blather, that you didn't examine the pastern joint in the X-rays & sole depth in the caudal portion of the foot in the a/p, so the moon bats confiscated it!!!!!!:eek:

Hu? Wasn't trying to blather. Just trying to share some ideas on what I deal with on my own horse who seems similiar to the OP's horse. It's hard to see anyhing on the rads she posted because they are 14 miles wide by 18 miles tall. I have to scroll and scroll to see anything.

[calshoer]

Get more X-rays of the navicular bone, from several different angles. I suspect something (seen on the last one you posted) but I m not going to say because I'm not a vet. ;)
Just do it and see if anything comes up.