Farrier critically injured my new horse

[heartbroke]

Sunday, was the first day I was able to ride my new barrel horse, then the ferrier came out to trim him. This was an 11 year old great tempered gelding, no bad habits just an easy going guy. When the ferrier started working on his hind legs he started moving around then it got to where he would strike at him. We walked the horse out and calmed him down, the ferrier went back to work on him... a simple trim turned into a $1000 vet bill and now a dead horse... The horse kicked this guys craddle stand and severed all the major tendons in his hind leg... what can I do?

[Jeanette James, CESMT]

Whoever,
I'm very sorry this happened to your horse. I won't be any help to you on this except to ask more questions. Was this from one kick? Why was this horse getting so wound up? What was so sharp that he could cut himself on? What did your farrier say? Is this your regular farrier? How did this happen? Sounds like quite an unfortunate and very unusual accident to me. Did you have mortality insurance on this horse?

Jeanette

[Paradigmhs]

From the title of your post, it sounds like your blaming what appears to be an unfortunate accident on the farrier when he/she is probably not at fault. I, too will use a hoof stand during trims. How long have you had the horse? Was this the first time you had him trimmed as the new owner? If not, how did he act on previous trims?

[Red Amor]

Hello Heart broke

Mate fristly let me start by saying how very sorry Iam to hear of your very tragic loss

I can only try to imagine how bad you feel

you said that your normally quiet steady well mannered old horse was playing up a bit and even striking at the Farrier and that the Farrier reacted by taking the horse for a walk and calmed him down befor restarting his work

this sounds like a kind and cearing steady sort of bloke to me , yeah?
So I can well imagine that he would be somewhat devistated to see you in such a state at the loss of your horse with out you going public , and blameing him for it

you said that the horse was strikeing at the Farrier and yet this man still behaved within the boundries of good eticate and politely tried to work on your horse

I had a situation today where i was working on an ill mannered pony which I gave no more of a slap on the belly that you might give a child misbehaving in the supermarket yeah :) well you guessed it the super brat horse reacted just like the brat in the shop OVER REACTED spat the dummy and took off down the road , luckerly a quiet country road
But when you think of the possible conserquences , well I was floored
I appologised to the lady
She replied with NO Red tis I that should be appologising to you
as the horse SHOULD stand quietly for you to do your work safetly

The last words you wrote in your post were What can I do ?
well what do you want to do
crusify this guy , sue him publically humilliate him on the WWW
for something that was an accident and NOT HIS FAULT ANYWAY

you havent mentioned any names but there are a lot who will know you and as many that will know him and its not hard to put two n two togeather

As I said earlier Im sorry for your loss in one good and dear friend in you new horse
dont let your bitterness make you loose another in your old mate the Farrier that was by all accounts just trying to do a good job under trying cir***stances anyway
these are just my thoughts reading a little between the lines some but Ive lived a little and learned how good people think when they feel hard done by

Im trying really hard to remain civil here as your head line reads THE FARRIER CRITICALLY INJURED MT NEW HORSE

Id feel like calling you about 18 different kinds of but my old fashioned folks would be let down and I we all need to try to understand things from your point o view

So what can you do ?

try hard to keep your head in this one Darlin and it might just keep you some friends as well as make you some others
ball in your court;)
mind how ya go now :)
Adios Amor

[tipptoez]

heartbroke,

I really don't mean to be harsh here, but you need to step back a little and look at the bigger picture. Your excitement at getting and riding your new horse and your grief at his sudden and unexpected death is very evident in your post.

However, what would you be feeling right now if your horse's kick had struck your farrier's head instead of his hoof stand? This accident might have gone this way instead. Whose fault would it be then? It is obvious that your horse was acting dangerously in this situation, no matter how gentle and easy going he was otherwise.

You said this horse was new to you. Had you ever picked up his feet? Was he good about it? Did you let the farrier know how he reacted when you picked up his feet? Did you ask the previous owner how he behaved for the farrier?

In your grief this is going to be a very hard pill to swallow, but you should really be counting your blessings that your farrier is still alive. He very easily could have been the one that died today.

Grieve for the loss of your horse, but don't look to find fault or place blame. This is a tragic accident.

Denise

PS, just another owner here, not a farrier

[Mike Ferrara]

Sorry to hear about your horse. Luckily I've never had a horse I was working on get injured but I've been injured many times...live and learn. I really learned something once when an owner came around the corner to see everything drenched in blood and exclaimed OH MY GOD, What happened to the horse? When I explained that it was me who was bleeding she was much relieved and I knew where I stood. LOL. I've had shoeing boxes crushed and foot stands wrapped around my head and in fact worked for many years without one just because it was something else I needed to worry about getting out of the way. These days I appreciate the tool more than I use to so I don't go anywhere without it.

Even good horses can be unpredictable and dangerous. In the rare instances that a horse gets aggressive, I generally just move on. There just is no good reason that I can see to risk the well being of a person on an agressive horse. There's a difference between not standing and kicking, biting and striking.

[Double C Forge]

I am also sorry for your loss and just as everyone else has stated, it seems that you are trying to put the blame on your farrier and there is no blame at all.

Horses are just like people in the fact that they have minds of their own and anything can happen at any given time w/ no explanation at all. It sounds like your farrier was doing everything he could to get your horse trimmed but for whatever reason your horse was uncooperative.

The sweetest, most gentle, never give anyone any trouble horse can blow up in an instance for no reason at all and I find it very appalling for you to be on a public board to smite the farrier who was on hand for this tragic accident for it could happen to any of us.

[John Barney]

I too am sorry for your loss. I would like to hear answers to the excellant questions above. I too use a hoof cradle at times on a pulley type horse, after the ER to get stitches a few times you learn. Your horse could have just as easily kicked through the barn wall and done the same thing. Please explain why this was the farrier's fault.

JB

[Gary_Miller]

I have to agree with all the above posts. This sounds like a freak accident that just happened and was nobodys fault. But like most people in todays society we feel that every accident must be preventable and someone must be to blam. This is just not so, accidents do happen and all we can do is everything in our ability to prevent them and sometime there is no one to be blamed.

Yet you go and post this so that all on the web can see it and maybe ruin a good honest farriers lively hood. Thats just not fare to him.

I'm sure that your farrier is very upset about this also as no one wants to see any animal get hurt or die.

I think the right thing for you to do is call the farrier let him know it was not his fault and that you don't hold him accountable for it. Oh ya and don't forget his bill.

Sorry for you loss
Gary.

[heartbroke]

I just want to let all know I am not placing blame on the ferrier, I know I should have perhaps said something to the tune of ferrier equipment. I have also not said his name or even a near location as to where he is from I am trying to just get clearance on this. I am not the kind of person that is going to go sue somone for something. I can see that ferriers DO have a hard job and they pride themselves in knowing horses and what might be needed to accomplish the job as safely as possible for both them and the animal. That was the reason I picked this particular one. I have been out of the horse business for several years and had the horse for only a week, the ferrier advertised 20 + years of experiance so I trusted that when I told him I didn't know what he would be like that he would also be able to see what was going on with the horse. I hadn't had any issues that week when I cleaned his hooves, he never struck out at me or anything of the sort. The first time the horse struck at him should have been a sign that the craddle thing might not be a good idea to have under him. From what I have gathered most ferriers wont use those if the is any hint of hostility from the horse. The ferriers I grew up around never even thought of using somthing like it, they wanted to be able to get out of the way as quickly as possible if something did go wrong. Perhaps I shouldn't have even said anything... I just wanted to see if out in this world that perhaps someone else has come across this happening or if even to let ferriers and owners know of the danger that could happen in a split second. If this helps only one ferrier perhaps modify his stand even a little bit then maybe my loss can save someone else from going through this.

[Red Amor]

FARRIER with an A shoes horses

Ferrier with an E works with furs animal hides

Darlin at the moment you must be feeling bloody lonley and sad
its a tuff break yours been given and as we've all stated we all feel for you and wish you well
you not the first nor will you be the last to loose a horse in a similar manner

you asked what can I do
take a little time to settle yourself down and them go get another horse
simple as that Darlin

[heartbroke]

So sorry for the typos... And you know it is kinda hard to go buy another horse when now for one thing I just paid for the last one and now have a vet bill to cover also. I mean shouldn't there be at least some liability out there? I now have no horse and a vet bill and he walks away with his 20+ years of experience? I know darn well if he had been injured on my property I would be paying for it. So I just chaulk this up as a learning experience right? Ok so I do that... but what keeps this from happening to another horse?

[hoofnhound]

I too am SO sorry for your loss,but this clearly really is just a freak,tragic accident.
Like someone else said,it's terrible to lose your new horse,but be VERY glad it wasn't your farrier.

Oh and Red m'dear-I'm going to play old school ma'am and correct you -
fArriers do indeed shoe horses,but fUrriers skin animals
;)
Alison.

[hoofnhound]

I'm sure he's walking away with more than his 20 years experience, you think this is not keeping him up at night?

I know you feel terrible,but put yourself in his shoes for a minute,he has put himself in danger all day everyday for that 20 years and I guarantee this has NOT made his day.

Please,even though this is hard try to step back and see it for what it is. An Accident.
Nobody's fault except the horse. He was the one that kicked out,he was the one that was liable.

[Double C Forge]

I can still sense the animosity in your post. You will always continue to blame your farrier. I would hate to be your next farrier. I can hear it now "NO, YOU CAN'T USE THAT HOOF STAND"!

I can understand your dismay but hopefully in the future you will come to understand more about what happened. 20 years of experience has absolutely nothing to do w/it. He could have had 100 years of experience and the exact same thing could have happened.

Now as far as liability goes well then since you said that this was an 11 year old barrel horse then I am assuming he had some type of racing history which would have been the basis of his price tag. He may have been a $1500.00 wore out never amounted to anything or he may have been a $30,000.00 champion barrel racer...........either way he should have been insured by you the owner w/ a well established insurance firm for mortality and surgery if desired.

Again I am sorry for your loss and it will be a lesson learned for you, but your farrier as you put it: (w/ his 20 years of experience walked away) and he is very lucky that he did for this horse could have ended his career.

[heartbroke]

I understand enitrely that I will infact eat the vet bill and the price of the horse... All I am trying to convey here and as I had stated earlier... My horse is DEAD now, I am just hoping that more people can learn from this experience... that is all... I was raised around one of the crankiest old farriers in the country and not much will offend me... And I am not trying to tell you how to do your job that is what you do every day that is why I hire a farrier... all I ask with all my heart and the point I am trying to get across is please be careful and safeguard your equipment... it could happen to anyone else reguardless of time on the job, just like getting hurt could also, you chose this line of work for a reason, I am just trying to let everyone know and be aware that it not only can ruin your career but your state of mind. I know he is sorry I know he didn't mean for my horse to get hurt... that is not a question in my mind

And yes you may think I am going to be a witch to my next farrier but no, I trust in the judgement of him/her like I said earlier that is what they do I wouldn't want someone telling me how to do my job. Everyone keeps telling me to put myself in his shoes, he chose that profession that is the risk he will take day in and day out. If you are not willing to take that risk then why do that for a living? Just like anyone in a high risk industry.

About the stand thing me yelling no you can't use that... Well would you blame me? I'm sure if it was your horse you had to make the decision to put down because of that one accident would you say "sure hell pull that thing out get right to it"... Please understand, this could have been avoided several ways. I just hope that maybe someone out there will tuck this into "man this could really happen" catagory instead ignoring the fact that it happened.

[Mike Ferrara]

So sorry for the typos... And you know it is kinda hard to go buy another horse when now for one thing I just paid for the last one and now have a vet bill to cover also. I mean shouldn't there be at least some liability out there? I now have no horse and a vet bill and he walks away with his 20+ years of experience?

Maybe there should be some liability. Maybe this poor guy who may have a family to feed is due some compensation for nearly getting killed. Maybe if he had, his children would be intitled to something. It sounds like you can't really afford to be playing with horses. You know? You can't win with scared money and if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen and all that.


I know darn well if he had been injured on my property I would be paying for it.

That would be the day. I've been hurt shoeing and I've yet to have any one pay anything. Maybe I could have sued but I never thought of it.

So I just chaulk this up as a learning experience right? Ok so I do that... but what keeps this from happening to another horse?

That's what you do. Because anytime you spend hard erned money on something like a horse they could jump through a fence, colic, founder, step in a groundhog hole or get themselves killed any number of ways...and worse they might get a person killed too! And...nothing stops this from happening to another horse. Horses do the goofiest things and some are dangerous to themselves and to us.

I understand you feel bad but to consider going after some poor working sap because your horse freaked out...WOW!

[tipptoez]

Heartbroke,

I can understand that you just spent a whole lot of money on this new horse, now a big vet bill, and no horse. I just can't go out and replace my horse tomorrow. I would have to save up to buy another one. However, as someone else said, he could have freaked and run through a fence or kicked through his stall (I saw this once, horse cut her right hind 3/4 of the way off, fetlock subluxed and the bone was sticking out, a little strip of skin and a hoof hanging there). The owner had no clue what set the filly off, she just flipped out. High buck barrel horse too. Anyway none of this makes the farrier liable. This is the risk you take when you buy a horse.

you said... "Please understand, this could have been avoided several ways. I just hope that maybe someone out there will tuck this into "man this could really happen" catagory instead ignoring the fact that it happened."


I don't think anyone of the farriers on this site would ever consider ingnoring an incident such as this. I am sure many of them have narrowly avoided similar situations. They take extreme risks everyday and they are well aware of it. Could be a HUGE wake up call for many owners though.

As to it could have been avoided in several ways.... I think your right. One way I see it is, as this horse's owner you could have said..."this isn't working lets stop for the day and let me work with him some." "or he seems to be leary of the hoof stand could you not use it today and let me work on getting him use to it in the future?"

If you felt that your horse or the farrier or both were potentially in danger then it is your responsibility to speak up then and there and put a stop to the whole thing for the time being. Doesn't matter if you have a big race the next day you might miss or not. This responsibility falls on us owners as well as on the farriers.

What other ways do you think could have prevented this? That information could be helpful to other owners.

Hindsight is always 20/20. I am sure the farrier is running over the senerio in his mind coming up with dozens of ways it could have been avoided too.

Your tone in your posts are changing a bit, sounds like you are calming down from the overwhelming shock from it all. Please know, we do all feel for your loss and understand the tragedy in this. Learning from it is all that can be done, but even in that there will always be senerios such as this as long as humans own horses. Sometimes there is just no way to see them coming.

Denise

[Gary Hill]

This tragic story is repeated way too many times daily! It does reinforce proper training and handling of horses. It's almost like buying a used car, you get what you get. If I wasn't shoeing for a living ,I see a great demand for real horse Trainers! Oh I know there are trainers out there ready to ride your horse because the owner might have a "real job" and not have time to ride themselves. That is far from training a horse or any animal. In my opinion any hand raised domestic horse should be bomb proof! Heck, now days all you have to do is turn on RFD-TV and somebody is going to at least show you how to get hands on with horses. The problem is owners don't start at the beginning of a foals life. Oh sure they want to pet and hug but if you really want to Train a horse it does start there. Remember horses are halter broke (most not all) and we use all sorts of tack to control or stay in touch with our horses. Just like raiseing good kids you use a four letter word-TIME- well spent can teach a horse to be used to anything. Ever fire a gun from horseback? You better start by firing it with you on the ground and then move closer and closer every shot. Anyone ever take a horse up and down and elevator? It can be trying but has been done!(Start on truck weighing scales) TIME! A few years ago I was set up shoeing at the local AQHA five day show, and I was close enough to the arena that the sound of my forge and the ring of my anvil was well heard. Anyway after a halter class some funny boy ,that's horse acted up in the arena while showing didn't like the ring of my anvil and funny boy came over and fussed at me for costing his horse from winning the Blue. Just so happened that the Judge and I had been chatting earlier and he came back over to visit more and overheard funnyboy fussing and the Judge told him he needed to go home and train his horse to get used to noise outside of the arena, so that if a bomb went off he would still stand still! Ever had a cat ricochet off the back of a horse you were under? That is hard to control! The tools of our trade make noise and thats good for a horse to learn to understand not to fear! Being from the track unfortuately might have planted some old seeds of mistrust. Understandable as you darn sure don't want racehorses to be deadheaded pets! Fear and or the adrenal caused by fear can make a slow horse run like a champion. And YES none of us have control over everything and accidents happen everyday, but doing your homework does help reduce the chances abunch! Thanks and Good Luck, sorry for your loss! Gary

[Gary_Miller]

[/QUOTE] I am just hoping that more people can learn from this experience... that is all... [/QUOTE]

The lesson to be learned here is that all horse owners should insure thier horses are insured.
My family learned this the hard way. When I was a kid someone thur a cigerett into our hores correl where it smoldered in the dried manure untill the wind came up and fanned it into a fire that burned down the barn and killed three horses.
After that my father purchased insurance on our horses. Never accord to him to do that before then.


[/QUOTE]All I ask with all my heart and the point I am trying to get across is please be careful and safeguard your equipment... [/QUOTE]

When your under a horse and you have your tool box next to you and your hoof stand under a hoof and a horse decides to kick out at you it all you can do to get yourshelf out of the way while attempting to save your equipment to. I looked at several styles of hoof stands and most are pretty safe in construction there is usually not much you can do to make it safer and still usable under a horse.

[/QUOTE]Everyone keeps telling me to put myself in his shoes, he chose that profession that is the risk he will take day in and day out. If you are not willing to take that risk then why do that for a living? Just like anyone in a high risk industry. [/QUOTE]

Every occupatioin has some kind of a risk. Thats why safety should come first and why most Farriers don't work on horses that won't stand still.

[/QUOTE]Please understand, this could have been avoided several ways.[/QUOTE]

We are all listening tell us what you think the problem way and how it could be avoided that way we can try and prevent it from happening again.

In the military when an accedent happened we always took a day and talked about the accedent and what could be done to prevent it. It called risk assesment.

So I suggest that we all take some time tonight or tomarrow to look at our hoof stands and other equipment for servicability and fix it or replace it as needed.

On our hoof stands we can check them for sharp edges, worn tops on the pole, worn or missing padding on the cradel, tool holders that may cause a horse to get hang up on the tools and any thing else that may cause accedental damage to you or to the horse you are working on. ,

I have seen some hoof stands were the tool holders don't allow tools separate from the stand, and I have seen some where tools were held by magnets that would allow tools to seaparate from the stand was knocked over. If your have tool racks attached to your hoof stand now maybe the time to ensure that if a horse put his foot down that he would not get hung up on the tools.

Freak accedent but something that we can all learn from and maybe prevent from happening again.
Gary

[Phil Armitage]

I do not see how it could have been avoided at all and no I do not think you can hold your Farrier liable, I do not see gross neglagence at all. Thanks for the warning that horses can be dangerous and this is a dangerous job. We already know that, it is owners who seem take that for granted. It sounds like the Farrier took reasonable steps and was able to calm the horse down. We all know even when we utilize all the knowledge and experience we have freak accidents can still happen. I use a hoof stand all the time front and hind on hundreds of horses, It is second nature for me, I use it on horses that have never seen one before with a lot of success. The hoof stand saves my knees and back so I can continue to serve my clients and the work load everyday. Sorry to hear about your loss and I hope all works out well between you and your Farrier. I am glad that a person did not get injured or killed because of an unpredictable horse. Who knows what history this horse has, you only owned him for a week, that is not enough time to really push all the buttons in a horse and see what there true colors are. I had a situation where the a new owner was lied to and was told the horse was good for the Farrier, the horse was shod all around, so you would think if the horse had shoes on it must be OK with shoeing, WRONG. I did the front feet no problem, pulled off a hind shoe and the horse kicked out at me and just missed me. Then faught with me and the owner, hard not to pick up her hind foot. The owner called the previous owner and asked if this horse ever did this with there Farrier, the previous owner said, Oh I forgot to tell you that the horse has to be tranqued to do the hind feet, but if you put a chain over the nose and make her do it, she will cooperate "show her whos boss". Well the new owner went to put the chain over her nose and the horse instantly struck out with her front foot and almost took off the lady's nose. I told her I think I have seen enough we are not doing her hind feet unless she is tranqued. We were both lucky we did not get hurt, this horse meant buisness and the previous owner in my opinion is an ***. Hello, people that like to lie like a rug, did you ever think you might get someone injured. How can people be so disrespectfull and careless? I would look into this horses history, maybe find out who the previous farrier and vet were and where did she or he come from. Again sorry for your loss, it is hard on everyone when this happens. Fortunately nobody got hurt or killed.

[Ben-Sturman]

Ditto on what Phil just wrote. I use a stand every day on every horse I do, young, old and all sizes. I find some horses do better with the stand because the legs are lower and less pressure is applied to the joints in an uncomfortable way. Now I have run into a couple of horses who don't like it and they get done without, but very few. In this case, it just sounds as if the horse wasn't truly trained to stand and hold his foot up for the farrier. Yes, that is what they need trained to do, stand with thier foot in the air held between the legs or on a stand for a longer period of time than just cleaning takes. Many time I've asked the owner how they are with their feet and got the answer, OK when I clean them. Then I ask how long they hold them and get, Just a few seconds. That is not even close to a proper comparison. So I go very slow and make sure the horse doesn't have an aversion to a front being run between my leg or a back leg feeling trapped when held over my leg. I have had to many freak and run back to the end of the lead rope and pull my leg or almost knock me down because the owner never tried to hold the leg like I would and only stood to the side to clean them. Horse owners need to fully understand that this is a dangerous job, and yes we chose it, lucky for them we did, cause it's also damn hard work. My great grandfather who was a pretty dang good old cowboy told me once that "The only safe horse is a dead horse, any one that is alive can do something to kill a human at any time". With a kick, a stomp, a spook, or any adverse reaction to an outside stimulus a horse's size alone isthe factor that makes them so dangerous to us. So please realize that the farrier was not using the stand in ignorance and stands are not weapons of horse destruction. This was an accident caused by either lack of training to the horse, or the horse was having a bad day and did't want to have his feet done and reacted by kicking, unfortunately he hit the stand and we all know the result. I'm very sorry that happenned. I tell some of my customers that horses are a product of Pandora's Box, if some thing can go wrong it will, and always at the most inopportune time.

Ben

[John Barney]

You still seem to want to place the blame or liability on someone or something. I have said in other post that the bottom line is it's your horse and your money, if things are not going right pay the man for his time and try another day. How bad did the horse need shoes? Did you work the horse prior to the appointment to get rid of excess energy? There are alot of what ifs. I find it hard to believe that a 11 year old horse had not been exposed to a hoof stand. What if he had kicked out when the farrier was paring the sole with a razor sharp knife? Whose fault would that be? You are responsible for you animals. Most states I know of will hold you liable if you livestock gets out and is struck by a car. What advice did you offer when things started going bad? Maybe this horse always got a rasp in the gut when he started acting out. I'm not saying that would be the best thing, but it does happen. Maybe he was always sedated. Alot of people do not consider a horse's feet when the by it. Oh it's the farrier's job. It's my job to balance, shoe, look for problems, etc. It is the trainer and owner who are responsible for the horse standing quitely while this is done. I don't want you to think I'm getting on your case, that is not intended. Just some thoughts for the future. I am very sorry for your loss. I love horses, if i didn't i would not be a farrier. Best of luck.

JB

[hoofnhound]

It may have had nothing to do with the hoof stand,maybe he was just kicking out and the stand happened to be there.

[heartbroke]

I have researched the situation further, I have spoke to the past owner and also the farrier... They have never had issues with him. Yes horses are very unpredictable animals I know this fact. I have also read in that last few postings that you use stands in most all cases, is your stand at least padded? perhaps bumpers or something on the edges of the craddle? This one was nothing but steel. I did suggest we stop after the first rear hoove was done and offered him his money, I was still offering him his money while I was waiting for the vet to show up. So no I am not the person you guys are painting me out to be. I am not new to this game I have just been out of it for a while. I was raised by way of you listen to your farrier, he is the expert in that field. You wouldn't hire some numbnuts that doesn't have a CDL to take a 18 wheeler acoss the state... You find someone with experience and trust their judgement... Look at it this way... If I was an owner that stood over your shoulder telling you how to do what you do... you would hate me just as bad...
And yes my tone has change some from the first post. I know I should have said equipment instead of farrier, I am not out to make all farriers mad at me. I know this guy works hard for his money, so do I and so does my husband... I know there are a few out there that don't and sit back and let the trainer handle all the wonderful details to having a horse, sorry that is not me... I saved many months to have this horse/ any horse... I know they are an expensive animal and insurance would have been a smart thing like I said I had the horse a week. No excuse I should have put it on him as soon as he walked on my property but I didn't, and insurance is not always a for sure thing. Trust me in this matter they would be looking for someone to blame this on....

[QUOTE=Mike Ferrara] It sounds like you can't really afford to be playing with horses. You know? You can't win with scared money and if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen and all that.

It's not that I can't afford to be playing with horses... Can anyone? I mean honestly do you expect to pull up to every horse farm and see a $100,000 dollar rig sitting there just waiting to pull 25 to 50k horses around? Sorry I work hard for what I have. As I said earlier I did offer to pay the guy.

I am over the blaming part it is an accident that is all... but like Gary_Miller said "So I suggest that we all take some time tonight or tomarrow to look at our hoof stands and other equipment for servicability and fix it or replace it as needed. On our hoof stands we can check them for sharp edges, worn tops on the pole, worn or missing padding on the cradel, tool holders that may cause a horse to get hang up on the tools and any thing else that may cause accedental damage to you or to the horse you are working on."

This could have been avoided by all the ways suggested from farriers and owners, and yes was an accident... Like I have said before I hope this would be a learning experience for all.

[Phil Armitage]

I still get the impression your looking for a reason to prove he caused the accident so you can recoupe some of your money. You offered to pay him and it sounds like he did not take your money. Did you tell him you think he and his equipment caused this and that he should pay half the Vet bill? What have you discussed with him or are you trying to arm your self with information first so that you can go after him? Nobody here is going to be able to help you or your Farrier, because none of us were there to witness what actually happened. I agree with Red, this thing keeps being discussed on the Internet pretty soon people will put two and two together and the story will get twisted and who knows how bad the poor guy or you will get hurt by it. A lot of hoof stands are all metal, there are all kinds of other things in barns that can cause an accident. Wheel barrolls, rakes, shovels, brooms other people and horses, doors, gates peoples junk, the list can go on and on. Your horse over reacted for whatever reason. You hired a Veteran Farrier who probably did not need your one horse to make a liveing and was probably doing you a favor, because we all know how difficult it is to get a farrier. Maybe this horse was a perfect angle with the previous owner and farrier, maybe the horse was out of sorts because he was at a new home, maybe your horsemenship skills are rusty because you have been out of it for awhile and you inadvertantly gave the horse mixed signals and he was digressing to a confused and over reactive horse and this Farrier was the last straw on the camels back. Maybe your the cause of the whole problem. Who knows, there are all kinds of maybes. Maybe your Farrier is heartbroke and feels sick about what happened to you and your horse. Maybe you ought to call him and ask him what he thinks happened and why? Maybe he knows a little about horses since he has been working on them for so long everyday, and maybe you will learn something.

[FrankLaursen]

I have to echo what everyone has said but I also have a few additions of my own, one I can not think of one person here that does not think about their day or the horses in their care and if you think that he walks away period you are sadly mistaken I have said a million times that this job would be way eaiser if I didn't care and for the stand I truely dought that it had anything to do with it .The move the new surroundings the fact that spring fever has arrived and I could go on but I think you get the idea but please do not think or make yourself feel better by bringing this to our attention or that he just goes home and says well s*** what a bad day,each and everyone of us have that thought enter our brain each day when a horse pulls kick or rears for no apparent reason but lets look at the reverse of this situation if the farrier had died that day do you think that you would of walked away? considering that you only owned the horse did you take the appropiet (spelling?) precautions ?did you warn the farrier and you expect us to beleive that this horse was perfect ? what kind of liabilty do you think you would of had if the farrier had died all because he choose to be a farrier that cared and was in this business for twenty years

There is always two side to every situation

Frank

[Red Amor]

AY HILLY
I take it that that horse wasnt as easy going as this one
that white cat came out of the big pine tree onto the float and then onto the horses back we never even noticed , cat sat there the entire shoeing
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/redamor/upeE333.jpg


Ay Carol
ya just need to stop now mate

[Jason Maki]

BTW, Red,
Why do they call you RED? :D

My parents had a little stallion who somehow broke the two by eights on the front of his stall and impaled himself with a spear from the sturnum, along the shoulder and exited at the elbow. The muscle was detached and hanging out when they went to the barn. The old Nez Peirces war horse(he was an old style Appy) was standing their nibbling hay ! He healed, but how in the heck did he hurt himself? Just like kids, horses jobs are to try and get hurt...
I am sorry that your animal was injured, but somwtimes these things happen.
Jason

[heartbroke]

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage]I still get the impression your looking for a reason to prove he caused the accident so you can recoupe some of your money. You offered to pay him and it sounds like he did not take your money. Did you tell him you think he and his equipment caused this and that he should pay half the Vet bill? What have you discussed with him or are you trying to arm your self with information first so that you can go after him?

NO I said I am NOT going "after" him. And yes it WAS the equipment that injured my horse (as I have reiterated in every post)... my only point IS if you will listen to me but it seems not... Yes I know it WAS an accident, horses can do ****** stuff that is why you keep the check book ready for the vet at any time... but if other farriers know that it can happen maybe they will also take into consideration next time they pull it out that this could also happen to them, if the edge is a little worn or what not. If the stand wasn't there the horse would have just kicked the air. I have seen pleanty of horses trimmed with out that stand... If the stand had perhaps had something for edging around it yes it would have stung and perhaps tought the horse a lesson but not sever all tendons. There are pleanty of what if's out there. If I wanted to "arm" myself I have MORE than enough resources for that, I am not doing that as I have said several times.

[QUOTE=FrankLaursen] did you warn the farrier and you expect us to beleive that this horse was perfect ? Yes I did tell him, I told him the before he even called me back about coming out to my place and once again before we started, that is why I chose a farrier with the 20 years experience. So he would be armed and able to deal with anything that happened.

As for the fact the "What if it was him that got hurt" What if any of us get hurt at our jobs... At any point your time is up, if the chain breaks holding the 6000 pound Cat engine that my husband works on... He don't come home but that is his profession that is what he choose to do in life... I am not discounting the fact that it is a hard and dangerous job but it is one that you guys pride yourselves in doing and try to learn more about each horse so you don't go through that situation again. If you can learn from someone elses situation then YOU wont have to go through it.. Right?

Signing off now. I know from the tone of all the responses that you see me as a ****** owner looking for that big score.... but I'm not I'm just someone who works hard for what I have, just like any of you.

[Red Amor]

Fair enough
well that'll do then
noughsaid ay

[Gary Hill]

Heartbroke, I reread your first post and you said all major tendons were severed? I expect you mean the DDFT and SFFT? If this is so ,just how did the horse die? Did he bleed to death? I have worked on a few horses that severed both tendons and with lots of help with a good Vet, I shod the horses with patten bar shoes that were adjustable and both fully recovered to a usable life. The hinds can actual only have one tendon behind and live, and get around. Of course, for the record I'm not talking about the Extensor Tendon along with both flexors being severed at the same time. That I have never had to deal with. Again I'm sorry for your loss, just trying to understand what did him in? Thanks, Gary

[heartbroke]

I know I said I would be done but, I have to apologize.. I have done more research and now can understand why everyone was on the defense. The marketed hoof stands that I have found look very safe, the one my farrier had was nothing like the ones I have found online. So I can see why everyone was so mad at me. I wish I would have taken a picture of it so all could see what I am talking about. Again sorry, I agree and don't see how a regular one could injure a horse if he kicks.

[blueridgeshoes]

Heartbroke,
You seem rather reasonable. We are getting defensive, but not necessarily because all our hoof stands are up to par. The main reason is because it seemed that you were blaming the farrier. Now it seems the stand. We all understand the risk of shoeing too well, and even the risks of horses in general. Try to understand this:
Imagine you have a dog in your back yard, whether you train it to stay there, tie it up, or fence it in. He spends a lot of time there and never causes any trouble. One day though he digs out, or jumps out, runs into the road in gets hit by a car. You can't honestly blame the driver, nor can you blame the car. You say " **** f**king dog." Maybe you wouldn't, but you couldn't really blame anyone unless you blamed the dog.
You just need to say an accident. Every tool we use can be dangerous to a horse, us, the owner, or just an innocent bystander. Farriers are trained to use these tools effectively and safely. No you wouldn't want me driving a tractor trailer. Thank you for your concern though.

Just another curmudgin,
Jake

[Gary_Miller]

Carol

Enough already, yes the stand may have not been the safest stand out there. But the botom line is your horse kicked out at the farrier instead of standing like he should. I don't know why, you don't know why he kicked out but he did. That the stand was there and in use at the time is very unforunate indeed. Accedents happen and there is nothing that can be done after they happen.

Let me share a story with you.

I have a friend who was the first member of the military killed durning Operation Enduring Freedom. When this happened we were in the country of Qatar building a base so we could fly aircraft to Afganistane to take care of Bin Lauden. My friend was a Master Sargent in the Air Force, his job was operating heavy constructioin equipment. He and his men were trying to take a tail gate off of a dump truck using a fork lift. The gate jamed it was dark so my friend got closer to see what was causing the problem. At that time the gate gave away and unforcunatly his head was between the forks and the gate. He was killed instantly.

The reason I'm telling you this is they had done this a hundred times it was routine practice. But this one time there was a problem and someone got killed. Our unit morned his passing, questioned why, and some even blamed themselves. In the end there was nothing anyone could do, we had a mission to accomplish and moved on. We all think aboout him almost everyday of our lives. There was no one to blame it was an accedent. We had to move on.

Now its time for you to move on, stop trying to find blame and understand that accedents do happen.

Sorry for you loss
Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Gary is right and that is a sad story about your friend. Wierd thing happened today. Horse cut his front leg on the rasp attached to my hoof stand's magnet. The horse was on the ties the owner sitting on a bench behind the horse. Foot stand about 10 feet in front of the horse and my tool box off to the side about 10 feet behind the horse. The horse was relaxed almost doseing off. I was standing outside at my anvil shapeing a shoe. The owner stood up real quick and the horse jumped forward into the hoof stand the rasp cut his leg (not bad lots of blood). Then pulled back on the ties back legs hit the tool box and his tail got tangled into the handle of my box. Every time the horse moved my box moved with him. Luckly I was able to untangle the tail and calm the horse down. Almost a major accident, all it took was someone moveing too quickly and catching a calm horse off qaurd. What if this had happened and the owner was not present and she came home to find a cut and blood stains on her horses white leg? Luckly nothing realy bad happened but it could have been worse. My stand was well out of the way and my tools were well out of the way. There is just so much room in a barn to place your tools.

[Red Amor]

Phil Mate

Horses just have a habbit of putting there foot in it

trouble that is

Id just finished shoeing this joker and tied him to the rail
there wasnt any tucker in the feed bin so he through it on the ground and stood in it to give his owner the message

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/redamor/Picturefromredphone029.jpg

[Jan Palmer]

>>The gate jamed it was dark so my friend got closer to see what was causing the problem. At that time the gate gave away and unforcunatly his head was between the forks and the gate. He was killed instantly.<<

And guess what? The government is liable and I'm sure his family will receive financial benefits.

I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me Heartbroke may have some recourse. If your child was killed as the direct or indirect result of a procedure the Dr. performed, would you just chalk it up to "bad luck"? Would you blame the child ("oh, he/she shouldn't have moved")? Think about it. Did the farrier alert the owner to the potentially fatal dangers of the hoof stand? Did he perform his trade in a safe and professional manner? Horses (and kids) are very unpredictable and even the best of them can "bug-out" when frightened. Seems to me this farrier was not working safely, especially since he didn't know the horse and was aware the owner had only brought him recently. Let's not blame the victim here.

Jan

[hoofnhound]

If I was there and saw that my child did indeed lash out unexpectedly causing himself injury,no I would not sue.
but then I am not American and at home we are not so sue happy as people here seem to be.
Not knocking the US,I choose to make my home here,simply an observation.

[Mike Ferrara]

>>The gate jamed it was dark so my friend got closer to see what was causing the problem. At that time the gate gave away and unforcunatly his head was between the forks and the gate. He was killed instantly.<<

And guess what? The government is liable and I'm sure his family will receive financial benefits.

I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me Heartbroke may have some recourse. If your child was killed as the direct or indirect result of a procedure the Dr. performed, would you just chalk it up to "bad luck"? Would you blame the child ("oh, he/she shouldn't have moved")? Think about it. Did the farrier alert the owner to the potentially fatal dangers of the hoof stand? Did he perform his trade in a safe and professional manner? Horses (and kids) are very unpredictable and even the best of them can "bug-out" when frightened. Seems to me this farrier was not working safely, especially since he didn't know the horse and was aware the owner had only brought him recently. Let's not blame the victim here.

Jan

Unbelievable! Any one can sue any one for anything but.
Generally (in theory) you need 4 things for a succesful law suit.
1, an established duty of care...in this case did the farrier ever lead you to believe that he could prevent the horse from injuring itself?

2, show a failure to provide that duty of care as compared to the "resonably prudent person" (in this case a reasonably prudent farrier)

3, have damages

4, show that the damages were a result of a failure to provide that duty of care

[Post-Equ]

How can you say sue em??? for the past year I have been hearing from a ton of people sue the farm I was riding at when I fell off a horse there. What happend was I was riding on a lunge line to sturrips working on balance, a girl ran in from the bright outside into the darker ring. Horse spooked I went boom hard, woke up 17 hours later no clue what happend and with sprained ankle and chiped bones. Next time I saw the instructor I said, hey don't worry this is the horse world people get hurt. When I saw the girl I said listen yes I'm mad( who wouldn't I was quite happy staying on the horse), you should have more sense then to run around like that, did you learn from this? Yea people said I could have been killed or hurt worse, its the horse world stuff like that happens I would NEVER dream of sueing for that, even if my horse got hurt or killed. Horses run they are flight animals, even if you are soooo careful, things set away , nothing to get hurt on, they might just get hurt on somthing anyway. I'm sorry I know how much it hurts losing an animal, and I spent two months wondering if I would ever get to ride again, this is my job I signed up for it, in the end I'm the one who got on, yes the girl spooked it and she should learn from that (an she has seemed to)and thats all I can ask for. You get insurance to cover you in everyway, (make sure you have your care custody and control and other liablities covered). you get on your horse, or you hand it over to who ever you need to, I know I might sound harsh saying these things but its what I learned working for a good horsewoman, everyone needs to keep in mind that in the end the horse calls the shots, hey they told you that scary lion was in the bushes, did you listen?

[Double C Forge]

That is so very true. I don't know about any other state but one thing that I am very glad of is that in the state of North Carolina we have a very good state statue in regards to equine activities. It helps to protect the horse/barn owner from the sue crazy ppl.

WARNING!

Under North Carolina Law, an
equine activity sponsor or equine
professional is not liable for an injury to
or the death of a participant in equine
activities resulting exclusively from the
inherent risks of equine activities.

Chapter 99E of the North Carolina Statutes


now having this sign posted does not actually keep you from getting sued but it does deter alot since the state understands and accepts the fact that horses have a mind of their own and anything can happen. Having good insurance and living in this state lets folks run a respectable horse operation w/out having to fear as much the folks who don't have common sense. They think every action should have a reaction.......not necessarily.


I've never heard of a professional bull rider sue a stockman because one of his bulls paralyzed him for life.........a friend of mine Jerome Davis can vouch for this.... Its just part of the game.

[Gary_Miller]

>>The gate jamed it was dark so my friend got closer to see what was causing the problem. At that time the gate gave away and unforcunatly his head was between the forks and the gate. He was killed instantly.<<

And guess what? The government is liable and I'm sure his family will receive financial benefits.

Jan

And guess what? We the people are the government, and the only financial benefits the family will receive are those authorized by law for military personal killed in the line of duty. The family has no other recourse.

The point of the whole post was to show that accidents do happen, no matter how hard we try to prevent them, in every company and every careerfield. We only can do what ever is humanly possable to prevent them.

Did the farrier alert the owner to the potentially fatal dangers of the hoof stand?

A farrier is hired to do a job using the standard tools of the trade. I don't think that alerting the owner on the use or dangers of the tools are necessary when used properly by a professional.

Did he perform his trade in a safe and professional manner?

Who's to say the only people there was the owner and farrier. In the court of law the owner would say what they saw. The farrier would say what he did, and another farrier would be brought in the testify on industrial standard for the use of tools and techneques in the trade.

Horses (and kids) are very unpredictable and even the best of them can "bug-out" when frightened.

Your right unpredictable you never know what can happen or when it will happen. Its like the saying in Rodeo, "It if you get hurt. It's when and how bad." Same thing applies around horses, and kids, we can only hope that when it happens it not fatal.

Seems to me this farrier was not working safely, especially since he didn't know the horse and was aware the owner had only brought him recently.

Standard practice, Owners buy new animals and want have them taken care of right away, and Farriers work around animals everyday that they don't know, it part of the job.

I think the only way the Farrier could be held accountable for this is if you could prove Farrier did something out of the norm of standard practice for the proffession. The use of a hoof stand is standard practice.


Gary

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

When you think of all the near catastrophies and this is just one. Last fall I was putting shoes on one of my own horses and this horse will stand for hours tied and not even test the rope. But I know from experience that if he gets loose when being shod he takes off so when I shoe him I tie him so he can't get loose. Anyway I was burning on a shoe and he pulled back in a serious way and normally he'll quit after a second or two but this time he didn't. I knew that if I got the rope undone he would have gone over back wards so I ran to get get something to wack him on the butt and about that time his eyes closed and he keeled over and crashed hard (big horse 18hh) and just laid there like his was dead. I ran over and untied him and a few seconds later he's eyes opened and he jumped up with a what the heck happened look. Anyway I had no trouble with him after that. A buddy of mine who is a great farrier and horse trainer was shoeing this horse he had in for training that you might call an i-diot one day the horse fell on the concrete broke it's hip, the women sued him and he lost and he ended up replacing this alpo horse with on of his well trained reining horses?

Kevin

[Phil Armitage]

>>The gate jamed it was dark so my friend got closer to see what was causing the problem. At that time the gate gave away and unforcunatly his head was between the forks and the gate. He was killed instantly.<<

And guess what? The government is liable and I'm sure his family will receive financial benefits.

I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me Heartbroke may have some recourse. If your child was killed as the direct or indirect result of a procedure the Dr. performed, would you just chalk it up to "bad luck"? Would you blame the child ("oh, he/she shouldn't have moved")? Think about it. Did the farrier alert the owner to the potentially fatal dangers of the hoof stand? Did he perform his trade in a safe and professional manner? Horses (and kids) are very unpredictable and even the best of them can "bug-out" when frightened. Seems to me this farrier was not working safely, especially since he didn't know the horse and was aware the owner had only brought him recently. Let's not blame the victim here.

Jan

Jan, there is a big difference between children and horses and there is a big difference between Doctors and Farriers. If you do not understand the differences I wouldnt be involved with horses if I were you.

[Mike Ferrara]

Hi all,

When you think of all the near catastrophies and this is just one. Last fall I was putting shoes on one of my own horses and this horse will stand for hours tied and not even test the rope. But I know from experience that if he gets loose when being shod he takes off so when I shoe him I tie him so he can't get loose. Anyway I was burning on a shoe and he pulled back in a serious way and normally he'll quit after a second or two but this time he didn't. I knew that if I got the rope undone he would have gone over back wards so I ran to get get something to wack him on the butt and about that time his eyes closed and he keeled over and crashed hard (big horse 18hh) and just laid there like his was dead. I ran over and untied him and a few seconds later he's eyes opened and he jumped up with a what the heck happened look. Anyway I had no trouble with him after that. A buddy of mine who is a great farrier and horse trainer was shoeing this horse he had in for training that you might call an i-diot one day the horse fell on the concrete broke it's hip, the women sued him and he lost and he ended up replacing this alpo horse with on of his well trained reining horses?

Kevin

I've seen horses do this. Years ago when I first started shoeing I spent a couple of winters working for a breeding farm. We'd run the young horses into the barn and get em into stalls. Then I'd get halters and sometimes catch ropes on em and get them broke to lead, wormed ect. These horses were completely untouched and wild ranging in age from weenlings up to two year olds and even the occasional three year old. Most of em weren't too bad but there were a few that you couldn't get near. I had to work alone most of the time and started tossing a rope over some of their head to catch em. It worked great but there was one 2 year old philly who as soon as the rope started to tighten her head went up, her eyes rolled back in her head and she droped like a rock and look dead. It hought I killed her until I loosened the rope and she jumped to her feet like nothing ever happened.

[Greg Thomas]

Amen, Phil.

When it gets to "horses are people, too" then the world is getting outa whack. Plum scarry.

Greg

[threehearts]

I am not a farrier, I feel so bad for your loss. Not all horse owners can afford to insure their horses. I have a young 6yr TB who gives my shoer and his helper a hard time (tried to strike out and kick). He will let me pick his feet and brush his legs but when it comes to the shoer thats another story. So I make a point to be there (because my shoer was trying to be a good guy and give him some hay) but I don't tolerate that kind of nonsense from any horse of mine. My shoer told me he has a new respect for me because I take no **** from my horse (17.3) but I have 100% respect for him because he did and didn't want to tell me, I aksed. My other horses are great for him! thank god!!
The point I am trying to make for your future horse ownership, when your horse starts to get that upset, end it right then and there. Then you should work with him and have other horse owners try to work with him too.

Its just unfortunate the hard, sad lessons we have to learn in life...

[Dave Purves]

Alright, I didn't have time to read through all of the 4 pages of posts, so I may be saying what someone else has said, but I think that Heartbroke has a point. The farrier in question didn't just have a hoof stand nearby, he was using a hoof cradle to do the back feet. The horse reacted badly a couple of times and yet he still used the hoof cradle. I don't use a hoof cradle except on the big WB's, but when one of them starts acting up, I get rid of the cradle, just so that when he's slinging me around I don't get caught up in the cradle and kill myself. All he had to do was stop using the cradle throw it off to the side and trim the horse. I don't see where liability would come into play but a little common sense goes along way. I've got horses that love the cradle, and others that hate it, I'm not gonna fight them until they like it, why risk it?
Dave

[BarrelsandMore]

Hello. Want to ask a simple (?unpopular?) question? Did the farrier appear to act within normal limits--as far as you could observe? I think that it is actually possible that the farrier might owe you something, if he/she acted improperly. I think that all the people prior to myself which responded to your post tended to stereotype all farriers as being perfect saints. All professions, even human physicians can make mistakes. Some of these mistakes are accidental and unavoidable--but some may be mal-practice. Don't let people intimidate you if you truly feel the farrier acted improperly and caused the sequence of events leading to your horses death through his/her temper, dwi (or swi), carelessness, etc. I feel that you will have the sense to examine all facts and look hard at everything involved. If you still feel the way you do--then by all means--go talk with a lawyer. You may save someone else a dead horse. Good luck in future and condolences.

[Red Amor]

Wouldnt happen to be a lawyer Barrelsand more , WOULD YOU?

[Phil Armitage]

Here is another possibility to consider. Maybe the Farrier trusted the horse owner and shouldnt have? She titles her post "Farrier Critically injured my new horse" and then says she is not blameing the farrier. She says in one post the horse is real gentle and then in another she told the farrier that she didnt know what her horse would do and expected the old pro to know. If I were a cop investigateing this as a crime I would have to consider how she changes her story. Who knows what really took place and how it went down, you have to be there to really know. Were there any witnesses. Start sueing Farriers over accidents, I can tell you right now you will not be popular in the horse world and may have to learn how to shoe your owne horse.

[Red Amor]

Yeah well you startin to give me the ****s

your still alive just get out there and get going , either get another horse or get another intrest OR GET LOST
and think yourself lucky and thank Christ the poor bloody Farrier wasnt CRITICALLY INJURED OR KILLED

[heartbroke]

Hello, HAVE I BEEN posting anything... NO! Don't jump my **** because I asked a few simple questions and people are seeing it differntly than you are and are still reading about it and responding, that is THE WHOLE purpose behind this kind of forum. For everyone to be informed and possibly learn something. Honestly with attitude like yours I wouldn't LET you on my property to shovel my pens let alone touch one of my horses. And yes you are quite right that he is lucky he wasn't hurt I was too busy watching my horse bleed to death.

[Red Amor]

Darlin
As Ive said I am truley sorry for your loss
I am fairdinkum
Like I said before imagine how the Farrier feels , do you realy think he thinks this is halairious geezuz

Its just time to move on now

As for attitudes and not letting me sovel **** at your place
Id recon after your posts on here you'll be haveing fun getting anyone to come work for you If they find out who you are

It was an accident darlin , a friggen accident get on with it now mate as the longer you stew the worse you'll feel and longer
I wish you well

[heartbroke]

Yeah well you startin to give me the ****s

your still alive just get out there and get going , either get another horse or get another intrest OR GET LOST
and think yourself lucky and thank Christ the poor bloody Farrier wasnt CRITICALLY INJURED OR KILLED

If I may quote you... I am not sitting here stewing, the only reason I am even back on here is because of your "GET LOST" if everyone on here had that response to every little question asked or conversations made, what kind of response would be expected? If you are tired of the conversation don't read it. You can bet though my post did at least hit one person out there. Like it or not. No reason to attack me about it.

[Red Amor]

yep your right Im sorry Im an insencertive pig

now

[Greg Thomas]

yep your right Im sorry Im an insencertive pig

now

Red, I admire your admission.

Since the first step to rehab is admitting you have the problem-

I, Greg Thomas, Im also sorry Im an insencertive pig.

Maybe Red and I can offer emotional support in this long road to recovery. (Quite frankly I ain't real sure what "insencertive" means but it does sounds like one of my characteristics.)

Greg

[Red Amor]

Orrrr Im not touching this , he he he ;)

my current theropist would advise it :(

thankyou anyhow Greg;)

[mae_7845]

yeah sorry for your loss.the only thing i can say is either your horse just didnt wanna stand still after awhile like most horses get tired an their patience runs out.or yeah it could be true that the farrier did trim your horse wrong an hurt em.but like u said it was a new horse.it takes a horse awhile to get use to things around your place too.but none of us was there so cant blame no one but a freak accident.just one of those things that happens.
but becareful next horse u buy checkin them over real good an ride em for awhile an ask alot of questions bout the horse.

[mae_7845]

yeah sorry for your loss.the only thing i can say is either your horse just didnt wanna stand still after awhile like most horses get tired an their patience runs out.or yeah it could be true that the farrier did trim your horse wrong an hurt em.but like u said it was a new horse.it takes a horse awhile to get use to things around your place too.but none of us was there so cant blame no one but a freak accident.just one of those things that happens.
but becareful next horse u buy checkin them over real good an ride em for awhile an ask alot of questions bout the horse.but i wouldnt rule this out either someone might of abused the horse to before u had it u never know.

[MarylandDrafthorse]

I just noticed this discussion, so forgive me for joining in a little late. I am not a farrier. I do own 2 horses which I keep on my own property, and I am responsible for their training and care.

It doesn't matter who is with my horse, I accept that horses sometimes have accidents. Sometimes horses spook and get hurt. Sometimes they trip, kick, fall, or get into fights with other horses. It's just the risk we take when we own horses. I feel that if a horse is worth so much money that I couldn't afford to replace him/her, I would have him insured.

I sense that you're angry and want to blame someone for this unfortunate accident, but I don't think blaming your farrier is right. If you said "he hit the horse with a metal tool, the horse was injured, and the horse had to be euthanized" THEN the farrier was clearly at fault. However, in this case he was doing the job you hired him to do and from the account you give he seemed to be doing it appropriately & professionally.

I don't think we can blame the manufacturer of the hoofjack. I'm not even sure we can blame this specific hoofjack unless it was in extremely poor condition with broken off or rusted away metal edges, and I'm inclined to think this isn't the case here? I would't blame a farrier for using a hoofjack with your horse; it's a common tool to facilitate hoof care.

Remember: it's the owner's job not the farrier's or vet's to train the horse thoroughly to accept being handled for care.

I'm always present when the farrier arrives, and I'm happy to help hold horses or assist if I can. I have two horses: one is physically challenged and the other (when I first got him) simply wouldn't behave for footcare. I've spent many hours trying to improve the one so he will stand still for hoofcare, but he's not yet perfect with it. Any farrier who takes on my difficult horses is doing me a big favor above and beyond his normal duty. It's the horse owner's job to be confident the horse is going to stand still, not going to freak out, and definitely not going to kick or stomp at anyone trying to administer care to it.

Let me put it in different terms: if I had a pit bull dog who was known to maul strangers once the dog lost its patience... and I took this dog to the vet, I don't tell the vet of the dogs lack of training, and the vet got attacked... whose fault would it be? Now carry that analogy over to horses: if I have a horse that might kick at a farrier/vet, whose fault is it when he kicks at someone? I would count my blessings and be thankful it wasn't the farrier your horse kicked. The farrier could've landed in the hospital or possibly even dead!

Here's a suggestion: you can buy your own hoofjack for about $140 or so (or if your farrier is nice maybe he'll lend you one?). Practice with your horses to get them used to it. You should aim not only getting him to lift feet but getting him to tolerate his feet in the hoofjack and in between your legs the way a farrier has to hold. Not to belittle how you trained your horse ... it's just that sometimes as horse owners we forget or aren't aware of what a farrier needs a horse to be able to do.

You do have my sincere sympathies. I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your horse. I always feel sad when I hear of any horses having to be put down, and this is even more sad when it was a horse who has so much potential. *HUGS* & condolences to you.

[Forgewizard]

Why is it that the farrier should be considered liable for this injury? He arrived to do a job as contracted, utilized the tools and expertise common to the trade and the horse's bad actions caused him to injure himself!

If a horse gets tied with a rope and halter, pulls back and breaks his neck - is the halter or rope manufacturer liable for the loss of the animal? How about the tree? Or the post manufacturer? Or the fence builder? Or the concrete mason?

Why do people always seek to place blame on another when an accident occurs?

Certainly losing your horse as a result of a freak ACCIDENT like this is tragic and heartfelt - but the only fault here is the falutiness of the horse to stand still and quietly accept the work being done on him!

Maybe the liability rests with the original horse trainer?

The risk we farriers take every time we do our job is tremendous. We acknowledge this. We also do what we can to minimize our risks. These risks come from not just the actions of the horse (or unexpected reactions from the horse) but also, risks from the performance of the job itself- especially the tremendous strain placed on our own bodies when in a position to do hoofwork. Utilizing a hoof stand or cradle helps us minimize this particular risk.

If more horse owners would actually hold their horse's hooves up for longer than the ten seconds they do to pick them out(or not at all)then the horse owner too, would begin to utilize a hoof stand and old dobbin would learn to become accustomed to one more expectation from the humans handling him!

[bing bing bing]

As my first post, this probably wont make me a crowd favorite. :p

I am sorry you had to put your new horse down. What a horrible experience.

I am not sure why so many are jumping all over this poster. Her horse is DEAD. It died from injuries incurred while being worked on by a farrier. I'd be incredibly upset if this happened to me. Yet many here are trying to turn it around like it is her fault. :confused: She only had the horse a week. She was trusting a professional to do his job.

Yes, accidents happen, but some 'accidents' are preventable with a little common sense. I don't know if this one was, I wasn't there. But if the horse was being having badly and worked up, I am not sure why the farrier would continue with a hoof stand. And what was so sharp on it that it tore the horse's leg up so badly? Was it just an open pipe?

And just because a farrier has been shoeing for 20 years doesn't mean he is a good farrier. Just like every job, there are very good farriers and farriers who have no business under a horse. It's a tough job which requires precision.

Again, I am sorry for your loss.

[calshoer]

I don't think we can blame the manufacturer of the hoofjack. I'm not even sure we can blame this specific hoofjack unless it was in extremely poor condition with broken off or rusted away metal edges, and I'm inclined to think this isn't the case here? I would't blame a farrier for using a hoofjack with your horse; it's a common tool to facilitate hoof care.
The hoofjack is safest hoof stand and cradle I have ever seen. The base is all plastic ,with rounded edges and unbreakable. The top of the post is also padded with rubber and the hoof cradle lining is soft belting.
A horse can tap dance all over the thing and not get hurt like with the metal stands. I have had mine since their introduction years ago, and it is stilll in one piece and very safe.
Patty

[Red Amor]

Gday all
I do hope ya all well n happy ;)

I was just wondering how our Carol , heartborken was getting on
Have you another horse yet darlin and how are you getting on
I am sorry for my seemingly unking remarks
guess Im just getting old n grumpy

Ive been useing an old disc from a plough with a two inch pipe welded to it for a hoof stand for 12 years and my teacher used his for something like 30 years now and never had any trouble
occasionally a horse will bump his nose on it or try to stand up on it or knock it over but never had an injury to the horses leg hoof
only once did I get my finger cought between hoof and stand , bloody oath that hurt and Im sure I heard the horse laugh ;)

[mwmyersdvm]

You mentioned that you had only owned this horse for one week and had pcked out his hooves. This action does not equate to behavior with a farrier as I have found on numerous occasions. While using the cradle may have been a bad decision at the time (and all hindsight is 20:20), the farrier may have also considered that this horse was just rude and unruly and would not explode so he was protecting his back from a rude animal.
If the farrier had told you this horse was a problem and you needed to get him appropriately trained or bring in a veterinarian to sedate him, you would have likely thought this was an incompetent farrier and called in another one who would then be to blame for the wreck. See this scenario all too often.
The lesson to be learned:
For the farrier - If the horse is giving you a problem, quit and let the owner get the situation in hand however long it takes.
For the owner - Realize that the farrier that tells you this is thinking of the entire situation and trying to keep your horse, yourself, and himself from injury.
Pass this along to every horseman you know so that all will benefit (or maybe one or two will listen - we take whatever small win is available).