Transition from shod to barefoot

[Shylagirl]

Two weeks ago I had my horses shoes removed. She had already thrown the back two shoes so I thought this would be a good time to go barefoot. My reason for barefoot are the health benefits that I have witnessed in other barefoot horses.

I am concerned because it has been two weeks and she is still quite sore. Some days seem better than others for her. For example, today I was surprised at how sore she was because yesterday she seemed to be improving. When I walk her in the arena she does her best. She doesn't seem to be in pain. But when I walk her on a hard surface or the road she is reluctant to move forward from a stop. So I do my best to keep her moving. I have had 3 farriers look at her and all said that her soreness is not due to being trimmed too short. That being the case...

1. Is this normal for her to still be sore?

2. If yes, how long should I expect the soreness to last, before I reconsider
putting shoes back on her.

3. What do you recommend during this rehabilitation period?

[TE Couch]

The transition totally depends on the current condition and health of your horses hooves. the trim the horse receives and the lifestyle of the horse. Post photos if you can - some horses are fine right away and some horses take quite a while. It all depends.
TE

[Phil Armitage]

It depends on a lot more than the outward appearance of the feet. Sole thickness may appear to be fine on the outside, however how thick is it and how close is the bottom edge of the coffin bone actually to the ground. The caudle aspect of the hoof may appear to be fine looking at it from the outside, but how much plantar cushion, lateral cartilidge do these feet really have protecting the insertion of the Deep Flexor Tendon on the bottom of the coffin bone and the Navicular bone and connective tissues. Going barefoot can achieve a healthier hoof, however maybe not strong enough to ride. One of the reasons your horse was probably loosing shoes was due to weak hoofs and sole, maybe going barefoot will help develop stronger hoof wall and sole that can hold shoes. The shoes are protecting the bottom edge of the feet from over wearing and also protecting the internal parts of the feet. What is the condition of the paddock, is it wet and muddy. The resistance to move forward is a signe of pain.

[TE Couch]

Phil - can you detail exactly how the shoe protects the interior structures of the hoof?
TE

[Shylagirl]

Thank you all for your replies.

TE Couch - I will try to get photos of my horse's feet asap. It is only her front feet that are sore. This is strange because they look healthier than the back feet, and she has never lost a shoe on her front feet... making me believe that they are stronger than her back. Also the frogs on the back feet have totally flattened out so the bottom of her feet look flat. There is no crevice between the sole and the frog only a trace of a line. And the line or crevice in the middle of the frog is virtually gone. :confused: What is this caused from and should I be alarmed?

Phil - My horse lives in a dry environment. She lives in an in/out stall. So when it rains and until the ground dries outside, I close off her outdoor area to keep her dry. But I do ride her in the rain and work her. I don't take a day off because it's raining. She is an 8 year old warmblood. She is very healthy, only sees the vet for vacinations. She's worked practically every day. A two hour trail ride in the hills and mountains is nothing for her.

[Jeanie Connors]

Shy, it's hard to tell without pictures, but it sounds like your mare's feet have some shaping up to do before they can be good bare feet. I would be a little concerned about the flat hind feet; that sounds very strange to have no cleft :confused: .

If her feet were very flat before pulling the shoes, or had underlying problems, she will certainly be sore on hard ground for awhile. Are you still riding her? It sounds like she is also getting a lot of work, which if she is still getting now, can be *very* tough on newly unshod hooves. Hooves can and should be allowed to get wet now and then, as well. I would recommend letting her out as much as possible, even in the wet weather. She'll go in if she's too cold ;) , and the availability to go out and about in all weather will help her hooves toughen up better.

What type of trim is she getting? Without a proper trim, going barefoot can be very bad for hooves. A good trim isn't hard, but it does require some technique. Are you trimming her yourself, or having a professional out? If someone comes out, what do they say to her being sore this long?

Pavement will aways be tough on horse feet; any small rock they step on doesn't have anywhere to go, so it presses on the sole which can hurt. To be toughened up for pavement riding can take several months. I don't think a horse sore on pavement is a big worry; it just means they need more time toughening up on harder ground first (which will give a little if a horse steps on a rock...that rock can press into the ground more easily than into the horse's sole...not so, on pavement).

If her feet are in basically good condition, she can toughen up those hooves in several months I would expect, based on the info given and providing her with as much turnout as possible, in all conditions. With poor feet, it can take up to a year or more with lots of turnout, adequate nutrition which is paramount to any hoof regimen, and the judicious use of boots to help her over very tough ground, such as pavement ;) .

[Shylagirl]

Jeanie - Thanks for your input. Here are some answeres to your questions. I stopped riding her the day her shoes were removed. It's been 2 weeks. I walk her at 30 to 40 minute intervals twice daily. The farrier gave her a balanced trim. He believes in taking into account the horse's conformation, work load, health etc.., to determine how to trim. It is not a "pasture" trim or a "barefoot" trim described by Pete Ramey & Jamie Jackson. I did try to find someone who specialized in doing barefoot trims but there is no one in my area. I would like to learn how to trim, just so I would be more knowledgeable.


The farrier that did her and those that have seen her since say her soreness is expected. One farrier said that she needs to grow more hoof for her size, that the shoes have constricted her growth. But I'm surprised she is still this sore after 2 weeks. After her trim she was improving a little bit everyday & it seems like she has regressed. :(

[Dave Purves]

Maybe I missed some very important fact, but why not put the shoes back on? You were riding enjoying your horse and now to ease your worried mind you're allowing your horse to suffer for what reason? What makes you say that the trim your farrier is doing is not a "pasture" trim. Or what constitutes a "pasture" trim? I'm not trying to be a jerk here but it just doesn't make sense to me as to why you would decide to go barefoot, then when your horse is lame, not go back to shoes?
Dave Purves CF

[Jeanie Connors]

Dave, she mentioned wanting to keep her horse barefoot after seeing how healthy it can be for hooves ;) . Since this section is for owners wanting to go barefoot, not shod, I'll go out on a limb and say it's an admirable thing ;) .

Shyla, what type of trim is your mare getting? What are the key concepts behind it? Often, a "pasture trim" and a "wild horse trim", which is what Ramey and Jackson do, are very different trims in many people's minds. Mind you, I'm not trying to start an argument, and I know many farriers do a very good barefoot trim, but the differences can be with the height the heels are left at, what is done with the bars and sole, and the characteristic mustang roll of the wild horse trim which is not always part of some farriers' barefoot trim.

Going barefoot does take some effort, and much more than simply leaving the shoes off after a trim. Can you post pictures of what your mare's feet look like, from the side and the sole view? (Calshoer posted a thread about taking photos of horse feet in "Farriers helping farriers-General discussion, I think, that's very good :) .)

I rather suspect the trim itself could be off somewhere, which is keeping your horse sore for so long :( .

[Dave Purves]

How healthy can they all be if the horse in question is unsound? It just seems silly to me. The horse is sound, being ridden and worked alot, not a little, alot. Everything is fine, then all of the sudden the owner thinks that barefeet look healthy so they pull the shoes, now two weeks later the horse is still lame. Where is the sense in all of this? Again I'm not trying to be a jerk I just don't get it. With the amount of work that this horse was getting shoes would certainly be of some help.
Dave Purves CF :D

[FrankLaursen]

I am with Dave here
Considering the current weather conditions where we have a thaw and a freeze almost in the same day. Where is the benifit to allow a horse to continue to be sore and the owner now miserable cause her horse is lame (all for a princapal)and the horse can not enjoy a decent day.
Just because you put shoes back on does not mean that it is destined for shoes for life it just means that this was not the correct time to get the bug and go bare foot
In my business if someone asks me to remove shoes right now that have been shod all winter I highly recommend that they do not but it is truely up to the owner and a couple of weeks during this part of the year is nothing as far as I am concerned
Do you and your horse a favor and just reshoe the horse it is not the end of the world and you can try again at a later date your horse will thank you for it

And for the record I try to get all the horses I do to go bare foot but sometimes that is not an option

(Bored and lost in the big city of Chicago well actually Naperville IL)
Frank :eek:

[Jeanie Connors]

Going barefoot *does* take some effort, but in my mind at least, and apparently to others, too, it's worth it :) . Granted, frozen ground is going to be tough to acclimate to right out of shoes....although California might not be frozen right now.

I think it's worth the effort, obviously. Putting shoes back on "for now" doesn't help the horse's feet toughen up, and as Frank mentioned, a couple weeks is not a lot of time to get a horse's hoof acclimated to tough ground.

[Dave Purves]

Well it seems to me that not all horses can go barefoot. And what dictates that is use, climate, conformation, genetics, and husbandry. The funny thing is that almost every horse I work on that is barefoot, has a really nice foot. They are used but not extremely hard, and spend most of thier day outside in the pasture. Then I have alot of horses that live in four shoes, they tend to also have great feet, but because they are used alot, or in the stall or whatever they do better with shoes on. See you can't look at one horse, and say that looks great I'll do it with mine. This is exactly what happens, it may or may not work. I think that this owner has found that barefoot may not be an option for her horse at this time. Unless she is willing to watch the horse limp around for lord knows how long. Instead, she could be riding and watching her horse live a pain free life with no ill effects. That's right, shoes don't cause liver disease, if applied properly they don't contract heels, they don't cause less bloodflow in the foot, and they don't keep the foot from expanding and contracting. So what was the benefit again for having this horse barefoot?
Dave Purves CF :confused:

[Jeanie Connors]

Is this going to happen every time someone asks what to do about keeping their horse barefoot but comfortable? There is a right way to go barefoot and a wrong way. If a horse is sore after pulling the shoes, but barefoot is something the owner wants to go for, there are ways to do it. Slapping shoes back on is not the only answer. This section is a place to ask how to do just that: how to keep a horse barefoot comfortably.

Dave, it really is at the heart of "barefoot only" vs. "shoes when needed" argument, the belief that some horses will need shoes or that most horses can be adapted to going barefoot. This place is for offering advice, though, not arguing over whose belief is right or wrong.

[Gary Hill]

Personally when client of mine wants to have me pull the shoes for awhile, fine. I just don't trim much off at first and sure don't knife anything out. Usually just running the rasp around the edges and old nail holes does the trick. No soreness and the horse is comfortable and able to make the adjustment to the ground. I will come back in anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks and do a trim. If the horse isn't going to be used for a while this works fine for most, but not all. Pathologies in every horse are differant so there is no rule of thumb for all horses. I had to build a shoe for a TWH last week that has a BAD pawing habit! He can dig a deep hole in nothing flat! He even paws while on concrete and his foot was almost 90 degrees. He had a nice callous and a super rocker toe, but his heels were straight up. This foot needed a size #4 shoe. He walked so goofy with that foot so straight up! I had to extend the toe almost two inchs infront of the roll he created. When he walked off the Trainer said he was finally moving the way he should always move ,so he will wear shoes the rest of his life there, according to the Trainer. This horse is huge almost 18 hands but was his own worst enemy! He also dug when turned out, so even living in pasture , horses can do damage to themselves. Thanks, Gary

[Dave Purves]

Jeanie, I'm not arguing, just posing a question that nobody seems to want or be able to answer. I have no problem with this horse being barefoot and lame. I don't have to take care of it. I don't have the owner calling me every other night wondering when it will be OK. The fact is some horses can go barefoot, some can't. I just hope that the owners have enough guts to say I was wrong about barefoot, let's put the shoes back on.
Dave Purves CF
Sorry if I offended anyone, I just don't understand the dilema

[Shylagirl]

Today I had the vet out to take a look at my horse. He said that her soreness is not due to being trimmed too short but because of her flat feet. According to him she has TB feet, and the soreness is expected. However, without knowing I have been aggravating the problem. Both farriers that I consulted with recommended that I exercise her. So I have been hand walking her around 30 minutes twice a day in the arena where the footing is soft. My vet says this is not what I should be doing. He wants me to put her on bute to decrease the pain & inflamation for up to 3 weeks, and turn-out only, no forced exercise. He says if she does not improved significantly after 30 days that I will need to put shoes back on her. So I am going to give it 30 days and I may find that barefoot is not an option for her. By the way I live in Southern California and the winters are very mild. Today was 78%. It rarely get below 48% on any given night, so I don't feel that there would have been a better time to do this based on the weather.

I have taken pictures of her feet but I don't know how to post them to this forum, please help if anyone knows how. :confused:

[Phil Armitage]

Phil - can you detail exactly how the shoe protects the interior structures of the hoof?
TE

Very simple Te, the same way a solid strong sole does. If the horse does not have a thick strong sole, then it needs shoes. Anyone who tries to have a sore horse go barefoot is takeing risk with the health of there horse. It is not rocket science. Learn more about the internal parts of the foot and you might not be so eager to go barefoot.

[Phil Armitage]

Today I had the vet out to take a look at my horse. He said that her soreness is not due to being trimmed too short but because of her flat feet. According to him she has TB feet, and the soreness is expected. However, without knowing I have been aggravating the problem. Both farriers that I consulted with recommended that I exercise her. So I have been hand walking her around 30 minutes twice a day in the arena where the footing is soft. My vet says this is not what I should be doing. He wants me to put her on bute to decrease the pain & inflamation for up to 3 weeks, and turn-out only, no forced exercise. He says if she does not improved significantly after 30 days that I will need to put shoes back on her. So I am going to give it 30 days and I may find that barefoot is not an option for her. By the way I live in Southern California and the winters are very mild. Today was 78%. It rarely get below 48% on any given night, so I don't feel that there would have been a better time to do this based on the weather.

I have taken pictures of her feet but I don't know how to post them to this forum, please help if anyone knows how. :confused:

I feel realy bad for your horse and I think you have gotten enough proof that you should have put shoes back on awhile back. To bad you have to learn a lesson at the expense of another liveing thing.

[caballus]

I would bet that there are trim issues that are not being addressed. The flat feet could, most likely, be from overlaid bar and/or heel material that was allowed to form a false sole. Horses that are shod for long periods of time seem to acquire this ... ;) at least the ones that I've seen around here. Overlaid bar and heels act just like scar tissue and more or less freeze up the hoof so the hoof cannot function the way it is supposed to do and this can cause lameness issues. I've yet to see a shod horse that *doesn't* have long bars that have become overlaid, long heels that supposedly "don't grow" (thats just plain bullwacky -- of course the heels grow! They grow so much and don't get trimmed back that they fold over and forwards thus giving the appearance of "not growing" ... the worst I saw were 3" long heels that had become part of the sole - covering almost the ENTIRE hoof sole! Yet, the farrier told the owner that the horse didn't grow any heel so needed shoes.) There could be a dozen other reasons this horse is sore. In the interim, until everything is sorted out, there are neoprene and rubber boots that can be put on for walking exercise. Movement is a major key to healthy hooves. Period.

shylagirl -- if you'd like to send photos to me, I'll post them up here on the board for you. My address is caballus@charter.net

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

I would bet that there are trim issues that are not being addressed. The flat feet could, most likely, be from overlaid bar and/or heel material that was allowed to form a false sole. Horses that are shod for long periods of time seem to acquire this ... ;) at least the ones that I've seen around here. Overlaid bar and heels act just like scar tissue and more or less freeze up the hoof so the hoof cannot function the way it is supposed to do and this can cause lameness issues. I've yet to see a shod horse that *doesn't* have long bars that have become overlaid, long heels that supposedly "don't grow" (thats just plain bullwacky -- of course the heels grow! They grow so much and don't get trimmed back that they fold over and forwards thus giving the appearance of "not growing" ... the worst I saw were 3" long heels that had become part of the sole - covering almost the ENTIRE hoof sole! Yet, the farrier told the owner that the horse didn't grow any heel so needed shoes.) There could be a dozen other reasons this horse is sore. In the interim, until everything is sorted out, there are neoprene and rubber boots that can be put on for walking exercise. Movement is a major key to healthy hooves. Period.

shylagirl -- if you'd like to send photos to me, I'll post them up here on the board for you. My address is caballus@charter.net

--Gwen

Thats interestng Gwen, because I have found the opposite can happen also. I find it is more common to find stronger thicker higher bars on barefoot horses than shod horses. When I see this, I question if this is good or bad, I honestly do not know. What you have seen sounds like horses that were extremely overdue to be reshod. Barefoot horses can develope the same problems you described in muddy soft footing when they over due for a trim. The horse mentioned in this thread sounds like it has thin soles and now it has been varified by a Vet. She also mentioned in this thread that it had been determined that the Farrier was not over trimming the soles. Some horses geneticly have thin soles, it is just the way they are and they need shoes.

[caballus]

On either shod or barefoot horses the bars should not be weight-bearing. You are correct, Phil, and I, too, have seen bars left too long on barefoot horses. And yes, you're going to find thicker and stronger bars on barefoot horses because the hoof, in general is most likely going to be stronger with the proper care and attention. I think alot of people don't realize that there is really quite some detail that goes into good, natural hoofcare. Each hoof can be so different from the other even on the same horse. Trimmed up 4 horses today, each with very specific needs and differences. 2 of them recuping from major issues! One of them is that "club footed" mare that was wearing the banana rail shoes that I pulled. She just had her 3rd trim and finally popped off a solid piece of overlaid bar that went all the way around the apex of the frog from one side to the other. I had trimmed it a little bit with each trim but didn't want to remove it prior as it was really solidly adhered to the hoof. I figured I'd let the hoof spring it off itself. Now the mare can start to de-contract some more and get some more width to the hoof. She is 100% sound, btw ... even tho the owner was told she'd have to wear those shoes for the rest of her life or she might as well put her down. The other 3 horses all have overlaid bar -- one of them has it so bad that it covers almost the entire hoof sole. We're working away at it bit by bit. As the hooves are allowed to function more normally that bar material will eventually work itself loose. But, until then, it really does act like scar tissue and prohibits natural, full expansion of the hoof with loading. Another one of the horses had almost a "slipper foot" -- it was stretched out so long in the toe and so forward at the heels ... really funky looking. But, got the heels back and down and was able to shorten the toe and get it rockered. The owner said the horse's pastern angle had never looked so normal the entire time she's had him until today after this trim. He'll come around. I'm going to check on him next week when I'm back down there for a training session.

It's also interesting to note, Phil, that when several horses are trimmed and shod by the same farrier that they all have the same quirks ... Walls left high on the inside of one hoof and the outside of the other (slanted rasping) ... bars left too long; heels too far forward, etc. etc. I'm beginning to be able to tell who the farrier was just from the shape and condition of the hooves I'm seeing. Almost like "trademarks" of the individual farriers ...

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

Totaly agree that going barefoot can achieve stronger structures in the hoof like sole, bars and frog, good shoeing can also achieve the same thing. Never have argued that point and have known this from personal experience for over 20 years. The trim is the most important part of the job. This is why good Farriers continue there education, good farriers focus on propper trimming barefoot or shod. Poor trimming is bad for the feet either way. The problem is not all horses, actually most horses do not have strong enough feet to work or be ridden barefoot this can be due to many factors like breeding, nutrition, age, enviroment and the work they do. Proper hoof preperation, trimming the frog,bars,sole and hoof wall properly is a must no matter what you decide to do with your horse. If the horse is shod then it must be on a regular schedule to prevent over growth. Barefoot horses also need to be on a regular schedule to also prevent over growth. It is the combonation of proper care from the horse owner and routine maintenance and proper trimming and shoeing that maintain a healthy foot. The situation with the club footed mare your working on is common, I have seen the same hoof condition on barefoot club feet, very common to run into horses that were negleted and did not get routine propper hoof care. It is not the shoes that cause the problem, it is people. It is not rocket science to see when a horse cannot go barefoot and it is cruel to keep on trying when it is obvious that the horse cannot achieve the sole and hoof wall thickness, strong bars and frogs and proper hoof pasturn angle. Farriers are professionals with proper training, education and experience. The Farrier should be able to determine what needs to be done and this should be based on proper evaluation of the horses conformation, condtion of the horse, what your doing with your horse, how often and where. Farriers are also more than hoof care specialists, most Farriers are also experienced horsmen and women and should know the whole horse. If you do not trust your Farrier then look for another one, I for one will not work with someone that does not trust my abilities and experience. Would you tell your Plumber and Electrician how to do there job. No you would not, there trained professionals and you hire them to do the job and do it right. Farriers are also trained professional or they should be, and your hireing them to care for your horses feet and do what is proper for your horse. Going barefoot is nothing new, I can't tell you the amount of times I have recommended to people there horse needs to go barefoot or the number of times we wish a horse could go barefoot and had the feet to do it. One big misleading message horse owners are getting on the Internet is that Farriers are against going barefoot and this is totaly untrue. Good Farriers know how to do a proper barefoot trim and if it cannot be achieved, then they also have the ability to do a good shoeing job. Good shoeing is done in a manner that it should not interfere with the function of the hoof. I have de-contracted many feet and brought them back into great shape by shoeing and acheived healthy frogs, bars and soles. If the shoes caused all the problems that barefoot only enthusiasts continue to suggest, then it would not be possible to improve the condition and shape of feet by shoeing and Farriers do this every day, hundreds of horses around the world on horses that do all kind of different jobs in all kinds of enviroment an footing. I really wish the Barefoot crowd would stop bashing shoes, if all they want to do is trim, then fine, trim until your heart is content, but do not bash something that you do not know how to do or do not understand.

[Phil Armitage]

It's also interesting to note, Phil, that when several horses are trimmed and shod by the same farrier that they all have the same quirks ... Walls left high on the inside of one hoof and the outside of the other (slanted rasping) ... bars left too long; heels too far forward, etc. etc. I'm beginning to be able to tell who the farrier was just from the shape and condition of the hooves I'm seeing. Almost like "trademarks" of the individual farriers ...

--Gwen

Well we are only human and some of us continue to learn from our mistakes and improve on them and some don't. On a happy note though, most Farriers I know, will admit that there always learning and there always evaluating there owne work to see how it could be improved the next time, some of these people I know have been doing this for over 30 years. Most of the Farriers that are on this site includeing my self are here to learn all we can. I hope I can one day retore your faith in a good shoeing job. Don't let a few bad farriers speak for all of us. I am sure there are some pretty bad trimmers out there lameing damaging feet also, and hopefully they are learning from there mistakes and will improve. This is not an easy trade it is probably one of the most difficult and demanding jobs out there.

[caballus]

Yeah, Phil .. there are bad trimmers out there, too. So, you see - we have more in common than you think! ;)

I'd like to discuss a bit of what causes "bad feet" to begin with. I think most of the average horse owners don't have a clue. Is this a lacking in the professional's packaging? Should we be responsible to educate our clients? I believe so. If one were to spend some extra time explaining and educating the horse owners then there'd probably be less hurting horses in the world! One of the main points I like to point out is the need for movement -- get the horse OUT of the damned stalls and get them *moving* the way they're designed to move. I also like to emphasize the need for viewing the horse as a "whole" and not just "hooves". This means feed & nutrition, social life, environment, exercise, the whole gamut. This is where education is really lacking with regard to teaching/informing horse owners. When I do an eval/initial trim I have a form that the owner has to fill out with regard to feeding, turnout, "buddies", health care, etc. etc. Then we "discuss" these as part of the initial eval. Yes, it takes time but in the long run, when the owner understands some of the vital and basic facts about the natural horse then it helps them to understand the husbandry that goes along with it and proper hoofcare. But how does one get to teaching the "professionals" to begin with? Trimmers or farriers - regardless. I see a SORE LACKING in basic equine science (& behavior, too) knowledge that is pretty scary! I don't mean anyone in particular, either -- this is a generalized statement. Not only with hoofcare people but with vets, too. And that's even MORE scary!

Perhaps we could start a thread/discussion here focused on basic, natural horse husbandry and science as it relates to the hooves? This would serve as a conference for professionals on board as well as horse owners. ??

--Gwen

[Mike Ferrara]

Yeah, Phil .. there are bad trimmers out there, too. So, you see - we have more in common than you think! ;)

I'd like to discuss a bit of what causes "bad feet" to begin with. I think most of the average horse owners don't have a clue. Is this a lacking in the professional's packaging? Should we be responsible to educate our clients? I believe so. If one were to spend some extra time explaining and educating the horse owners then there'd probably be less hurting horses in the world! One of the main points I like to point out is the need for movement -- get the horse OUT of the damned stalls and get them *moving* the way they're designed to move. I also like to emphasize the need for viewing the horse as a "whole" and not just "hooves". This means feed & nutrition, social life, environment, exercise, the whole gamut. This is where education is really lacking with regard to teaching/informing horse owners. When I do an eval/initial trim I have a form that the owner has to fill out with regard to feeding, turnout, "buddies", health care, etc. etc. Then we "discuss" these as part of the initial eval. Yes, it takes time but in the long run, when the owner understands some of the vital and basic facts about the natural horse then it helps them to understand the husbandry that goes along with it and proper hoofcare. But how does one get to teaching the "professionals" to begin with? Trimmers or farriers - regardless. I see a SORE LACKING in basic equine science (& behavior, too) knowledge that is pretty scary! I don't mean anyone in particular, either -- this is a generalized statement. Not only with hoofcare people but with vets, too. And that's even MORE scary!

Perhaps we could start a thread/discussion here focused on basic, natural horse husbandry and science as it relates to the hooves? This would serve as a conference for professionals on board as well as horse owners. ??

--Gwen

Good points. The biggest problem that I've had to battle for as long as I've been shoeing is horses just plain not being taken care of. That includes everything from training (which can put a damper on the work in a hurry) to feet that just plain are let go WAY too long.

In some cases the problem is that the owner just doesn't know. any one can buy a horse. However, i'd have to say that in the vast majority of cases ignorance is not the reason. Many of these people have been around horses for a very long time and even make their living with horses and it's strictly a discipline or a financial thing.

I trimmed some brood mares recently (for about the third time) and they were in the worst shape I've seen them in. Of course it had been about 6 months since I touched them last. Now this owner breeds these things for a living and has had numerous champions and knows very well what the horse should have. She also knows what she can get away with. If you saw these feet you'd want to plaster pictures on the net as proof of lousy triming only it's not the trim that did it but rather the lack of it. When a horse stands in a stall except for an hour or so in the mud and gets let go for that long there isn't anything I can do for them. I could give case after case like this going back to about 1980 as I'm sure that many of you can too. Most often it just doesn't seem to be a matter of education. If some one wants to learn it makes it easy but you can lead a horse to water and all that.

[Dave Purves]

Cab you need to get in the truck with a good farrier. Not a well known farrier, a good farrier. You will see that the heels are trimmed back, the bars are pared down and the foot is healthy. My wifes horse lives in four shoes, and has the best feet I've ever seen on a horse. The heels are not 3 inches long, the bars are not folded over and pinched, you have a distorted notion of what all horses in shoes look like. Maybe the farriers around you that you've seen the work of just suck. But like I said before, we took our stallion to Equine Affaire in Ohio last year, and I was approached by a barefoot trimmer from NY. She was asking who the trimmer was. I said it was me, she asked if I was barefoot only, I said no, I'm a certified farrier with the AFA and she just about fell over dead. We talked and she proceeded to tell me that I can't get feet to look that good with shoes on so I showed her my wifes horse that was there for demo reasons with four shoes on. I can't speak for her, but in a nutshell she was impressed and said she doesn't see anything like that at home. I'm not special, or some great farrier, I'm no better than anyone else on these boards and many more that we'll never hear from or know about. I just do the best that I can. So for you to lump all shoes and the results that you've seen into one bucket is just wrong. As a matter of fact, you can come ride with me anytime you want. My door is always open.
Dave Purves CF :D

[Jeanie Connors]

I think it's important to mention that not everyone comes to the barefoot thing through seeing poor farriery skills. Not all shoeing jobs are terrible (although, Dave, from that woman's reactions, poor farrier skills seem to be pretty wide spread, sadly), but to some, barefoot makes sense over shoes, even well placed shoes, for any horse. ;) It's a difference of opinion, a difference of how you feel a horse should be kept (regular care is essential to every aspect of horse care, too, you're right, Mike).

[Gary Hill]

Mike makes some very good and truthful points. When a farrier takes on a new client that wants trims only, most of the time the feet are way overdue for a simple trim. After a few regular appointments on a regular schedule the feet will come together and start looking really good. That's when the problem starts all over again! Everything is based on the pocketbook! When a horses feet start staying in good shape due to regular care, that's when the owners start backing up! They will start asking for you to come less often, because in their eyes the feet look good when you come to trim. They want more for their money! How many times have any of you had a client that always demanded that they needed their horse feet to look good because they want to sell the horse? Fine, I believe all Farriers strive to make them look good every trim but in 10 weeks that balanced trim has grown out and looks like no one has worked on the horse in years. Same goes with shoeing, a great shoeing job can look really bad in 8 weeks time, so remember judge a trim or shoe job right after it is done, not what it looks like in two months! JMO, Thanks Gary

[caballus]

However, i'd have to say that in the vast majority of cases ignorance is not the reason. Many of these people have been around horses for a very long time and even make their living with horses and it's strictly a discipline or a financial thing.

Well, actually it is ignorance ... ignorance when the word is derived from "ignore" - ignoring what one knows to be the correct thing. That's blatant ignorance and the worst kind.

I have a policy ... I tell my clients that I will be there every 4 weeks. 5 weeks tops. If they cancel for some obscure reason and we go beyond the 5 weeks then I charge my initial trim and eval. charges all over again cause now I have to reshape and re-do all the work I had done before. 4 - 5 week trims generally are within the 'safe' parameter so fairly minor tweakings are needed and nothing more. Any longer, though, and the hooves get out of whack. I also explain the importance of maintaining the schedule and if someone has an issue with that then I will politely tell them they need to find another trimmer/farrier, then. Usually I get my way. *VBG* People seek me out specifically and are agreeable to my suggestions/advice as well as my fees.

And yes, of course there are those who come to "natural" barefooting through education and not poor farrier work. Unfortunately, I wasn't one of those people so my views on farrier work is pretty skewed at this point in time. But I also firmly believe in a natural, barefoot hoof. Even with the best farrier in the world. That being said ... I'll now resume my evening chores ...

*S* --Gwen

[Dave Purves]

And the farriers are the ones with "closed minds". What a pitty. I have no problem letting a horse go barefoot when barefoot works. But in a case like this one, you have to do what's best for the horse and I believe (without seeing the horse). That putting shoes on and stopping the lameness is what is best for the animal. That being said I'll go back to watching TV.
Dave Purves CF

[caballus]

Are shoes going to "cure" whatever is causing the lameness? Or are they merely going to cover it up? Bottom line, to me, would be taking care of the CAUSE of the lameness and going from there. One can treat strep throat with antibiotics but then keep on getting the strep when the antibiotics aren't there ... so more antibiotics, end of antibiotics, more strep ... and so one and so forth. What is CAUSING the strep to begin with? Why does the person keep getting the strep? Same thing with just putting on shoes ... it might "fix" the symptoms but what's going to fix the cause? Putting shoes on might keep the sole from getting sore but why is the sole getting sore to begin with? Fix that and whatever other issues are causing the lameness and maybe the horse will truly recover.

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

Gwen, in this case the shoes are going to prevent lameness. Sore feet is not a lameness. Soreness is a red flag, if the cuncussion to sensitive tissue and bone continue then this will lead to all kinds of problems that could lead to lameness some chronic some mild and temporary. When horses feet are sore they will compensate for the soreness and this can also lead to problems in higher joints, neck and back. Shoes are there for protection, support and traction to prevent problems, if the horse has healthy strong feet that can do all this without shoes then by all means go barefoot. Why nail or glue on shoes to perfectly good feet. As far as educateing the public, the only time one should give advice is when it is asked for, othere wise it can be taken wrong and be offensive, this could cost you an account, then what good are you doing for the horse and horse owner. It can take time for people to gain respect and trust you to the point where they will ask you for advice. It is not a good buisness practice to jump in and start telling people they are ignorant and do not know what there doing. I know if someone did that to me, I would be offended and take my buisness elsewhere. I do not do this unless I want someone to take there buisnsess elsewhere. :) The only time I will give unsolicited advice is when I see an unsafe or inhumane situation. It is not always new horse owners that have a problem, I have met people that have never owned a horse before demonstrate more commen sense and compassion for horses than people that have owned horses most of there lives and should know better.

As always good discussion great information for all.

[Charlie1]

Hi, I am in the UK and we have what are called EP, Equine Podiatrists, and the one I use is trained in the KC school of BF.

The whole point has been for many years horse owners have struggled to go barefoot and felt the horse went sore so it would not work for them.

I did that same with mine, as a youngster we tried to not shoe, then when turned away the following winter and only removing hind shoes. Each time he went so sore we belived he would not cope Barefoot.

I believed my horse could not be BF at all.
He is a large draft breed.

But I investigated and discovered, not only was the trim different, but the conditioning programme used was more likely to have a successful result.

The conditioning is walking in hand, building up the foot to become conditioned to the different terraine and surfaces, slowly as the foot changes and can withstand what is asked of it.
It may require other assistance such a gel applied when the weather is very wet to stop over softening, and thrush infections setting in. It may require the use of a product called Solemates. These are a memory foam, that you tape to the hoof sole and walk them in, to help if very sore but still allow circulation and full pressure to be applied to aid conditioning and exfoliating of the sole, improve the frog and improve the bars.

I personally did not need or use Solemates till very recently as we managed quite successfully with walking in hand over concrete and tarmac, and building up the time over the weeks, work in a sand school is also recommended. I can now hack out on roads for an hour and return as good a pace as we left on, and that is 16 weeks into this programme.
I am about to remove his front shoes and that I know may well take longer. I feel I may well have to use Solemates or even boots, which I am investigating HoofMocs as I like the fit and design of these. But only for any hacking out required.

I hope this may help you.

There are a few Barefoot forums which offer help and support, which was the reason in the end I went this route.

[Rick Burten]

Hi, I am in the UK and we have what are called EP, Equine Podiatrists, and the one I use is trained in the KC school of BF.
.

the only persons who are entitled to call them selves Equine Podiatrist, are licensed veterinarians. anyone else useing that designation is perpetrating a fraud on the consumer public.

It is my understanding that those graduates from KC's school are awarded that appellation. They are using it illegally and , as I said, fraudently.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[cynthia-jay]

If I am not mistaken ...The barefooters suggest to take the shoes off in the winter months to let the horse adapt on the soft snow where it applies

A horse should not be this sore after having the shoes pulled unless there is an underlyning problem that the shoes helped with

Warmbloods sometimes do not have the best of hooves

Posting photos of the soles and other views would help these Farriers determine if it was a bad shoe/trim job which also occours

In an honest attempt to remove the old nail holes a Farrier will also trim a horse to short or to correct a problem may pare too much sole and leave the horse tenderfooted

If this is your case your horse may be sore for up to 4 weeks or so untill the sole grows back in

I would suggest a 2nd opinion by another Farrier/Vet to rule this out first

Your horse may need pads with shoes untill she grows out to prevent further damage and then try barefoot at a later date

A horse should not be this sore going from shod to barefoot

Determine the underlying cause to eliminate the effect

best to you and yours
as always
Jay

[caballus]

If I am not mistaken ...The barefooters suggest to take the shoes off in the winter months to let the horse adapt on the soft snow where it applies
First, "the barefooters" are all different in approach and methodologies. There is no one "barefoot" group, per se. I do not, for example, recommend waiting to take off shoes til just before winter. Why? What is the point? Shoes can be pulled anytime and if the horse is trimmed right then there shouldn't be any major issues except maybe some ouchies on gravel whereupon owner can choose to boot the horse for riding (which I will suggest) or keep to the softer ground while under saddle for awhile until the hooves toughen up a bit. So which group of barefoot does that fall under?
A horse should not be this sore after having the shoes pulled unless there is an underlyning problem that the shoes helped with
I have to respectfully disagree with this. There are many reasons a horse may become very sore after removing the shoes. Angles are changed, trimmer may have trimmed too much, physical qualities of the hoof that may need conditioning, etc. etc. Primarily, what I hear and see, is the hooves were trimmed too invasively during the intial trim.
A horse should not be this sore going from shod to barefoot Absolutely! I agree 100%. Barring any other physical reasons for lameness.
Determine the underlying cause to eliminate the effect
Always! Simply suppressing the symptoms does nothing to eliminate the causes. Symptoms are just that ... symptoms of a dis-ease. Treat the whole horse so it can readily fight off whatever dis-ease is causing the symptoms. This may include change in diet, change in husbandry, change in exercise, even a change in with whom the horse is buddied with during turnout. (social). All of these have an effect on the whole horse and it will show up in the hooves and with other "symptoms". If the horse is stressed, physically or mentally, the entire body is affected, including the hooves.

--Gwen

[Mike Ferrara]

Shoot my horses are barefoot and I didn't do anything to condition them for it. Many of my clients keep their horses barefoot and don't do anything to condition them. Some only shoe them for showing or various other activities and leave them barefoot at other times. All, without doing anything to condition them.

Aside from certain activities where a horse may be helped by shoes, any horse with "good enough" feet should be able to go barefoot. This is one thing that wild horses do prove. LOL. However, the idea that all horses have feet that can somehow be made good enough to go barefoot and still do everything that the owner requires when they require it by conditioning or anything else is an idea that I find totally obsurd. We breed, keep and use domestic horses that wouldn't live an hour in the wild.

The way to do away with the need for shoes is to get rid of the shoes and let all the horses who can't do their work without them die. Then we will truely not need shoes EVER. I agree...healthy pasture pets don't need shoes but because of how we breed and use the animals they sometimes need help.

In the end, the arguement about whether or not all horses can go without shoes or not is totally moot. The fact is that some of my clients insist on shoes and I'm paid to give them what they want not to tell them what they should want. Besides, I'd pay real money to see a "barefooter" go into a saddlebred barn (or a polo barn for that matter) and tell the trainer/player his horses don't need shoes. Why do you suppose a poor farmer of 100+ years ago would spend hard to come by money to put shoes on his plow horse? Ignorance? Maybe but I'm of the opinion that more horse knowledge has been lost over the years than has been gained. We keep seeing a new and improved weel but it's not any rounder.

[Mike Ferrara]

Always! Simply suppressing the symptoms does nothing to eliminate the causes. Symptoms are just that ... symptoms of a dis-ease. Treat the whole horse so it can readily fight off whatever dis-ease is causing the symptoms. This may include change in diet, change in husbandry, change in exercise, even a change in with whom the horse is buddied with during turnout. (social). All of these have an effect on the whole horse and it will show up in the hooves and with other "symptoms". If the horse is stressed, physically or mentally, the entire body is affected, including the hooves.

--Gwen

First of all, from my first aid training, we have signs and symptoms. Signs are what we observe and symptoms are what the patient verbally describes to us. My horses are not very gifted in the use of the english language so all I have to work with are signs. LOL sorry I had to toss that in.

Aside from that, not all conditions or pathologies can be "cured". Relieving a sign or symptom is sometimes the best that can be done. That's why people use things like asprin BTW. As far as I know it can't cure anything but it sure comes in handy for those "covering up" headaches, fever, joint and muscle pain that modern medicene is yet unable to cure.

[cynthia-jay]

I would like a follow up on this from the original post on how the horse is doing now

Thank you
as always
Jay

[calshoer]

Gwen said: On either shod or barefoot horses the bars should not be weight-bearing.
There are times that nature lays down HUGE thick bars that are there for SUPPORT of the bone column of the foot, like an "Inner hoofwall". Laminitis is a perfect example. Weak soled feet or soggy feet in an extremely wet environment are another.
In those situations the bars will rapidly grow HUGE, connecting all the way around the frog. NATURE puts them there at that aprticular time for good reason. removing them prematurely is NOT natural and is to the detriment of the foot if you do not replace the support with something man made.
The overgrown bars, the "inner hoof wall" will loosen and come off easily after the bone is supported from other structures.
AS well the part of the bar that is closest to the heel buttresees IS supposedto share weight with the hoofwall. It does in the feral horses,so why would a so called "natural " trimmer not understand that?
Patty

[caballus]

A *good* natural trimmer does know to leave bar material and false sole that is not easily removed until the hoof begins to loosen it on its own. That being said, it also is important to know that the old material must not be left so as to cause pressure points that cause soreness. In other words, there must not be points in the old material that are higher than the sole, callouses or heels and as such, would be weight bearing.

This is a bit different thinking than the Strasser trim which removes bars sometimes right down into the sole.

Two different schools of thought.

--Gwen

[pawsplus]

Of course there's going to be a period of adjustment. After all, you can barely walk, let alone run on gravel when you first take off your shoes in the Spring (as a kid). By the end of the summer, your feet are callused and tough and you are flying down the driveway. Doesn't happen overnight, though, and 2 weeks is nothing.

For horses transitioning, try using boots to ease the transition. The flat-footed TB in my barn (boarder) who is transitioning spent 3 weeks in 4 boots (Boas) when under saddle and when turned out (12 hours/day). No boots in stall.

Then we went to front boots one day and rear the next for a week.

Then we went to front boots one day, NONE the next, rear the next, NONE the next. Did that for a week or so.

During this time he was ridden in the arena in front boots and trail ridden in 4.

He is now 4 mos into barefoot and he's been turned out w/ NO boots for 6 weeks. He is being ridden w/ no boots in the arena. His formerly flat feet are developing concavity so fast that even my barefoot trimmer is surprised.

But you can't be in a rush. You just have to realize that it does take time, and be willing to do what you can to make the process easier on the horse. IMO boots are the way to go.

[WashingtonBay]

Maybe I missed some very important fact, but why not put the shoes back on? You were riding enjoying your horse and now to ease your worried mind you're allowing your horse to suffer for what reason? .... I'm not trying to be a jerk here but it just doesn't make sense to me as to why you would decide to go barefoot, then when your horse is lame, not go back to shoes?
Dave Purves CF

Hello - I'm new to the forum - enrolled today to ask about my own horse in the Navicular forum. :) but I am enjoying the posts on this topic as well.

I would love to see you ask your question to a friend of mine who has been trying to transition her horses to barefoot for a YEAR and while they go OK on dirt, they are still ouchy on gravel logging roads, trying to hug the edge or drag her through the brush rather than walk on the road. She uses her horses a LOT and it doesn't make any sense to me. The reason she wants to go barefoot, besides having been sold on it by a local bf trimmer, is money. Foot care is a lousy place to try to save money in horse husbandry, IMHO.

She gets encouraged though, wrongly I think, by horses like my husband's horse who has never been shod. She's Mustang/Arab, and has HUGH black strong feet. Every time my farrier comes out we ask if her feet are holding up or if she should be shod, and he sees no reason to. She's never shown signs of foot soreness on trail, but I think she's a marvel, not a normal case.

[Jeanie Connors]

There is a lot involved in a successful transition period. It isn't just "no shoes" and ride it out ;) .

If your friend's horse is not going well after a year of trying, but is doing okay on softer ground, why not suggest she try boots for the rough parts? If her horse is ouchy on hard footing, he's not going to land heel first on it, and he's not going to build the rock crushing hooves she wants to see.

As I already mentioned, there is a lot involved in the success of going barefoot, so not knowing anything about her situation, I can't say "Yeah, she'll make it", but using boots, keeping the horse comfortable and moving *properly*, and of course, getting a good trim, are all part of success. Why not direct her to some resources to help her out? :)

[WashingtonBay]

There is a lot involved in a successful transition period. It isn't just "no shoes" and ride it out ;) ... Why not direct her to some resources to help her out? :)

I'm sure there is a lot involved, up to and including resting them enough to grow foot and putting boots on them. Boots are expensive and don't stay on well, and she's cheap and doesn't like the hassle.

As for directing her to resources... I've repeatedly recommended my farrier, but I don't think he likes clients that don't listen and don't like spending what needs to be spent ;) He went out there once and now won't call her back.

The horse did fine in shoes... She's a gem of a 14 year old QH with little feet. Her feet are her weak link and I think she's not the best candidate to be barefoot, as much trail as she tries to ride. Her young ones that have better feet and have never been shod, maybe.