Will the real certification please stand up.

[EDeSocio]

I see a number of initials behind peoples names. I am pretty sure I know what goes into the PHD, the MD, the DDS, the RN and the LPN, I truly understand what goes into obtaining the CF, the CTF and the CJF, and have an idea about the RJF, but what exactly entails someone to hang CNBF and CNBBT behind their names?

For me, I have spent countless hours in the fire, alone, with individuals around the U.S. and in numerous clinics and contests. I have spent countless hours reading books back to back over and over. Failed one written test 5 times, made I don't know how many shoe boards that are currently lost in a huge pile or welded into a some type of art. I do know however, I have never applied a barshoe to a horse that I bought... I guess there is a silver lining somewhere in this right?

So, when I see CF, CTF or CJF, I know what went into gaining those initials, but the slick CNBF and CNBBT intitials... at first I was like whoa!!! what is CNBB Torture? Then it came to me.. Ok a little slow here... but still, what exactly when into gaining the Certified Natural Balance Farrier and the Certified Natural Balance Barefoot Trimmer initials?

Consequently, I read an article titled, Natural Baloney horseshoeing a while back from a retired farrier who has my total respect.

[George Geist]

Sounds like the guy who wrote that book was a guy after my own heart:)

Anyway, yeah they have a certification that they bestow upon themselves now same as do the different barefoot cults out there as well as other shoeing styles, schools etc etc. You get the idea.

Is an attempt at legitimacy:rolleyes:
George

[Bill Adams]

Now is the time to exert our new found verbal decency, love and harmony.
Would be a good idea to stock the pop corn larder and bar too.

[Jason Maki]

I too, would like a litany of requirements...I would like to undertake the process this year or perhaps next...I attended a liberal arts college so am pretty well versed in the concepts of a broad based education. Maybe if I have enough alphabet soup after my name CJF, RJf, and then opefully a TE and an RMF with the NB stuff too, I'll quit hearing "Take all the toe and leave some heel" and horse people will actully listen when I talk!:rolleyes:Probobly not.
I am serious about a list of requirements, though. I feel those certifcations could broaden my knowledge base and skill set, and perhaps make me more acceptable to a vet clinic or university, which is where I would like to end up in the future.
Jason

[Rick Burten]

http://www.e-hoofcare.com/
http://www.e-hoofcare.com/education/education.html

Anyone who thinks these are "gimme" credentials, is wrong.

One other thing. Unlike the credentials awarded by other farrier organizations, these credentials must be updated and renewed every two years, much like the requirement for AFA Testers and Examiners to upgrade every two years in order to remain current and continue to serve in that capacity.
Consequently, I read an article titled, Natural Baloney horseshoeing a while back from a retired farrier who has my total respect
Interesting. Said author must also feel that the WCF is also worthless since that august organization has fully recognized the NB protocols as viable and legitimate.
Did this author eary your "total respect" by dint of words or deeds of which you are personally aware? If so, what might those deeds be? Or is it perhaps that that individual's reputation preceeds him and you are basing your view of him on a belief in the words of others? In which case, I commend you for religious indoctrination. OTOH, I choose to determine matters of this nature for myself.
Is an attempt at legitimacy
For someone who marches to the beat of the union drum, thats a very interesting opinion. :rolleyes:

[Jason Maki]

Thanks Rick
Jason

[EDeSocio]

Just so happens that I have heard of the author who is an AFA member and a BWFA examiner. I got the chance to meet him at his ranch after exchanging a few emails and he showed me his blacksmith shop. Then his room full of hammers and shoes of fame that he has collected, made or work on around his travels. He talked about his licensing on more racetracks than I knew existed and different icons that he worked closely with. He gave me ideas and strategies on different shoe making procedures and philosophies.
One of those meetings you come away from itching to get home and into the fire!
One of those men you feel your quality of life has increased after you initially shook his hand!

The NB shoe is supposed to be a "corrective" shoe. I had a friend who graduated from Mission Farrier School. The NB school. He told me that they only use NB for corrective measures. I noticed his shiny new trailer full of NB shoes and nothing else.. I figure wow.. he is going to only shoe lame horses needing corrective work... are there that many out there?
He brought a rope horse over to try him out and the horse performed beautifully. Although he complained the horse is great but is lame. I couldn't see a lame step on the horse. The horse was focused, calm, tracked the steer, walked back, no head bobbing, in the warm up, no head bobbing after charging down the arena at a full gallop... So he buys the horse and again says the horse is lame and needs shoeing bad. Comes back a week later with nice new NB shoes on and is DEAD LAME! Couldn't walk around the arena. (deep sand arena) He kept the horse and couldn't get him sound... HELLO!!!
Other rope horses in our arena with those NB shoes were handfuls for the riders.

[Rick Burten]

Just so happens that I have heard of the author who is an AFA member and a BWFA examiner.
This may come as a shock to you, but there are many who are singularly unimpressed and vastly underwhelmed by the BWFA accreditation process and credentials. Has this "esteemed" author undergone the AFA certification process? If so, to what level? If not, why not?
The NB shoe is supposed to be a "corrective" shoe.
Absolutely NOT! And, its not just about the shoe, its about the entire protocol and when/how to use it correctly. HELLO!
I had a friend who graduated from Mission Farrier School. The NB school. He told me that they only use NB for corrective measures.
His report is at odds with both the written information regarding the program and the verbal information I have received from other graduates of that program.
He brought a rope horse over to try him out and the horse performed beautifully. Although he complained the horse is great but is lame. I couldn't see a lame step on the horse.
Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it wasn't present.
The horse was focused, calm, tracked the steer, walked back, no head bobbing, in the warm up, no head bobbing after charging down the arena at a full gallop... So he buys the horse and again says the horse is lame and needs shoeing bad. Comes back a week later with nice new NB shoes on and is DEAD LAME!
Sounds like a installation and application problem, rather than a materials problem.
Couldn't walk around the arena. (deep sand arena) He kept the horse and couldn't get him sound... HELLO!!!
See my comment directly above.
Other rope horses in our arena with those NB shoes were handfuls for the riders.
Meaning what?

[George Geist]

Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it wasn't present.
Aw come on Rick! Wouldn't the esteemed Mr Stovall say "Sound is as sound does"?:)
George

[Rick Burten]

Aw come on Rick! Wouldn't the esteemed Mr Stovall say "Sound is as sound does"?:)
George
Absolutely. However, we must also remember that " 'Sound' is in the eyes of the beholder" and, "Just because someone says a thing, doesn't necessarily make it so." :)

[tbloomer]

I think I've seen more lame horses shod in St. Croix shoes than any other brand. Can't figure out why nobody ever blames St. Croix for the lameness. Conversely, I've seen a lot of horses with no appearent lameness out winning various cometitions whilst wearing St. Croix shoes. Can't figure out why nobody gives any credit to St. Croix for that either. :confused:

[calshoer]

but what exactly entails someone to hang CNBF and CNBBT behind their names?Those are the first 2 of the available 3 certification levels from Gene Ovnicek proving one's knowledge and skill in applying Natural Balance principles. He is certifying that the farrier understands and can correctly apply his particular principles.
CNBBT is Certified Natural Balance Barefoot Trimmer, CNBF is Certified Natural Balance Farrier, (basic level) and the next certification level is CLS, "Certified Lameness Specialist" .

Patty

[calshoer]

Anyway, yeah they have a certification that they bestow upon themselves now same as do the different barefoot cults out there as well as other shoeing styles, schools etc etc. You get the idea.

Is an attempt at legitimacyIt is in no way a 'self bestowed' credential . It requires taking tests in both knowlege and practical skills. The certificate is issued by the developer of that particular protocol, who personally oversees the testing, and it is a TOUGH test, graded by three people. Several experienced farriers who have come to test have failed at least one portion.
Here's our own Rick Burton recently taking his CNBF test with Gene Ovnicek oiver his shoulder, and some of the other test participants forging their shoe modifications. I would invite any of you who think it is a "gimme" to come take the test. Patty

[tbloomer]

NB and AFA certifications are similar in respect to the candidate demonstrating their ability to trim and shoe a horse to a well defined protocol. The protocol in both cases is applied to every horse and every candidate.

The Guild RJF exam differs from AFA and NB in that the examination is about the test candidates judgement. The candidate demonstrates their ability to define what ptotocol is apporpriate for the specific horse presented and then shoe the horse according to that protocol using hand made shoes.

A Guild examiner may challenge the candidate to defend their protocol and provide a scientific/mechanical reason for their decisions before allowing the exam to proceed to the live shoeing. This aspect of the Guild exam is significant because no other certification allows the candidate any say, nor are they judged in regards to their own choice of protocol as applied to the specific horse upon which they are testing.

Because of the strict time requirements on the AFA exams, I believe that their test is the best evaluation of hand skills, efficiency, and motor coordination. Because of the time clock, the AFA exams are a skill challenge. If anything, having passed the AFA certifications should make it easier to pass the NB and Guild certifications because the motor skills required by the AFA are still important and significant in regards to getting a horse safely and efficiently shod, regardless of the shoeing protocol.

Because of the NB marketing to horse owners, I believe that the NB certifiation has the most business value to a farrier. Neither the Guild or the AFA seem to have the market awareness with horse owners that NB has created. That alone is reason enough for me to go after the NB ticket.

[tbloomer]

Here's our own Rick Burton recently taking his CNBF test with Gene Ovnicek oiver his shoulder . . .Patty
It's gotta be hard for Rick to bend over far enough for anybody to look over his shoulder - he's about a head taller than Gene. :D

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Rick Burten in gray, deletia

http://www.e-hoofcare.com/
http://www.e-hoofcare.com/education/education.html

The focus of the organization is stated on their website: "Being a progressive organization, the primary focus for the ELPO at this time is in the field of hoof care, and more specifically the Natural Balance Principles and Guidelines. As you may know, Gene Ovnicek is a primary member and advisor with the ELPO, and with his guidance we have been able to developed an educational format that offers training opportunities to horse enthusiasts and professionals of any level."

Anyone who thinks these are "gimme" credentials, is wrong.

Natural Balance credentials appear to have validity to folks who feel NB's precepts based on the feral foot in an abrasive environment are applicable to domestic horses in use. Obviously, since the model is not applicable to many domestic horses (e.g., long footed horses, drafters, etc.), the value of NB credentials as an indicator of the holder's ability to meet the needs of many horse in use is questionable.

One other thing. Unlike the credentials awarded by other farrier organizations, these credentials must be updated and renewed every two years, much like the requirement for AFA Testers and Examiners to upgrade every two years in order to remain current and continue to serve in that capacity.

Apples and oranges. NB's "upgrading" has to do with NB's model, while the AFA's upgrading of testers has to do with the AFA's arbitrary testing standards.

Interesting. Said author must also feel that the WCF is also worthless since that august organization has fully recognized the NB protocols as viable and legitimate.

Please be kind enough to point out where the Worshipful Company of Farriers has recognized NB protocols as "viable and legitimate." The description of a "well shod" horse on the WCF website, which says, in part, "The hoof wall should be trimmed to the best natural shape - a straight line from coronary band to ground surface, not flaring out or cut back too far...", does not seem to support your contention that NB's precepts are accepted by the WCF. http://www.wcf.org.uk/files/Well%20Shod%20Horse%20leaflet.pdf

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that Gene Ovnicek, the founder of NB, whom you indirectly reference in your post, cannot legally practice farriery in the UK - but any AFA Journeyman who meets FRC criteria for experience can, to wit:

In addition to the DipWCF examination the Farriers Registration Council also recognises certain other qualifications as meeting the standard for registration. The approved qualifications are currently...
[B]American Farriers Association CJF (Certified Journeyman Farrier)*
*In accordance with the Act, the FRC also requires proof of two years regular and gainful engagement in shoeing horses subsequent to achievement of this qualification prior to registration.

Source: http://www.farrier-reg.gov.uk/

[George Geist]

One other thing. Unlike the credentials awarded by other farrier organizations, these credentials must be updated and renewed every two years

Is that a fact? That puts you in the esteemed company of KC LaPierre, the Fuhrerette, Ralph Casey et al.

Soon as you stop paying your no longer certified, I see. That then qualifies as a franchise.

Thanks for that info Rick, is very enlightening:)
George

[calshoer]

Natural Balance credentials appear to have validity to folks who feel NB's precepts based on the feral foot in an abrasive environment are applicable to domestic horses in use. Obviously, since the model is not applicable to many domestic horses (e.g., long footed horses, drafters, etc.), the value of NB credentials as an indicator of the holder's ability to meet the needs of many horse in use is questionable.For the umpteeth time Tom, although the original look at feral hoof wear patterns opened the door to deeper questions, the vast majority of NB protocol is backed up by independant research done with *domestic horses* . NB is not simply mimicking the feral foot form. So you can drop that argument because it is a non issue. Patty

[calshoer]

the value of NB credentials as an indicator of the holder's ability to meet the needs of many horse in use is questionable. Then you dont understand the vast variations that are available in applying NB principles. Patty

[calshoer]

Soon as you stop paying your no longer certified, I see. That then qualifies as a franchise. I suggest that you stop making slanderous "pulled out of your hat" asumptions, George. Get your facts right. In order to re-certify for level 2 or 3 you have to actually RE TEST every two years.
And in order to recertify for level 4 you have to either retest or supply a detailed case study using specific documentation and measurement parameters of a lameness case. It aint a 'franchise'
And any money that ELPO collects from certification testings goes back into a fund saved for education and research. It does not go to EDSS.
Patty

[George Geist]

Sure do wish Jack Mac was here for this one:D

[tbloomer]

In the Information Technology industry certification updates are tied to changes in technology and new technology protocols. Since the technology changes frequently, it is necessary to recertify in order to maintain current knowledge with current technology as it appears in the market place.

What is involved in "upgrading" or maintaining NB certification? Do people have to recertify by testing every two years - a trip to Colorado? If so, it this because they anticipate changes in the protocol and want to keep everybody up to date? If this is merely a CEU requirement, then are other education venues accepted as continuing education, or only NB education provided by NB instructors.

If the protocol does not change, then why would anyone need to recertify? If the protocol does change, that would indicate that something about it was wrong to begin with. Far as I know, horses haven't changed since the last ice age, therefore a shoeing protocol what applies to every horse (SIC) should not change either.

Can somebody curify my satiosity on this "upgrade" thing?

[calshoer]

Please be kind enough to point out where the Worshipful Company of Farriers has recognized NB protocols as "viable and legitimate." The description of a "well shod" horse on the WCF website, which says, in part, "The hoof wall should be trimmed to the best natural shape - a straight line from coronary band to ground surface, not flaring out or cut back too far...", does not seem to support your contention that NB's precepts are accepted by the WCF Just because it is not in their website as part of their regular shoeing protocols does not mean it has not been formerly accepted.
In fact it was just last year or the year before when it WAS FORMERLY APPROVED as a scientifically valid protocol and something that can be taught as part of their program . For details I suggest you contact David Nicholls in the UK at TFP Ltd. He was directly involved and can therefore give you first hand information.
Patty

[calshoer]

The NB shoe is supposed to be a "corrective" shoe.Nope. I had a friend who graduated from Mission Farrier School. The NB school. Not the only one, One of several. He told me that they only use NB for corrective measures. I noticed his shiny new trailer full of NB shoes and nothing else.. I figure wow.. he is going to only shoe lame horses needing corrective work... are there that many out there? I can't speak for Mark, the instructor of that particular NB schools, but NB shoes are designed as an everyday shoe to help facilitate applying NB principles, in everyday situations as well as being part of the tools for therapeutic work. One student from one school is not going to get you the whole story.
Therefore I suggest you do two things:
1) Get first hand information before making assumptions, not second or third hand. Call Mark Plumlee at Mission farrier school yourself, if you want to know what he is saying about NB shoes.
And
2)look into the NB website and READ it in depth before you make uninformed statements about the shoes intended uses.
Patty

[tbloomer]

Ok so retaking the CNBF every two years = $400

Round trip air to Colorado - plus hotel = ~$500

$900/24 = $37.50 / month to maintain CNBF current.

Not bad when you consider it would pay for itself with a referral from one new client every 2 years.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

For the umpteeth time Tom, although the original look at feral hoof wear patterns opened the door to deeper questions, the vast majority of NB protocol is backed up by independant research done with *domestic horses*.

Repeating a fallacy, no matter how often it's done, still won't make it reality. Please cite any bona fide research you feel supports NB precepts; but, please be aware that the so called "research" done by Ovnicek, Bowker, et al, will merely engender laughter. In reality, there is no research - none, zip, nada - that supports any of the NB claims.

NB is not simply mimicking the feral foot form. So you can drop that argument because it is a non issue.

Such a quandary! Shall I believe you or my lying eyes? One can only wonder why Ovnicek was quoted as saying, "The natural hoof pattern and function in feral horses is healthy and attainable for most horses." [Western Horseman, p.56, July, 2007]

Perhaps he was only kidding. :)

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

Then you dont understand the vast variations that are available in applying NB principles.

Please spare me the usual illogical, nonsensical, "If you don't like it, you don't understand it", arguments. The biomechanical shortcomings of NB protocols are as obvious as a wart on a pretty girl's nose to anyone who somehow managed to muddle their way through a physics class. The feral model, on which NB is undeniably based, is demonstrably flawed when one attempts to apply its precepts to domestic horses in use because it does not adequately differentiate between fronts and hinds (although the primary function of fronts and hinds is quite different) and, worse yet, NB does not consider use as a primary criterion in either trim or shoe selection.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

Just because it is not in their website as part of their regular shoeing protocols does not mean it has not been formerly accepted.
In fact it was just last year or the year before when it WAS FORMERLY APPROVED as a scientifically valid protocol and something that can be taught as part of their program .

One can only wonder why the WCF website would have something diametrically opposed to Natural Balance protocols on their official website. While I don't doubt the portion of NB pioneered by Archimedes that conforms to physical law might be accepted and taught as a part of any shoeing program, the description of a "well shod" hoof on the WCF website bears eloquent testimony to the fact that NB protocols are not accepted by the WCF in their entirety as you wrongly infer.

For details I suggest you contact David Nicholls in the UK at TFP Ltd. He was directly involved and can therefore give you first hand information.

No ma'am, that's not how it works. Since you claim the WCF has accepted NB protocols, then it's up to you to provide substantiation for your claim when challenged to do so, not for the skeptic to debunk your assertion. Put another way, given the official WCF statement as to what constitutes a "well shod" hoof, I'm extremely skeptical of your claim: I don't believe it exists as you've outlined. :)

[calshoer]

Tom, basically you are calling me liar despite my referring you to the source of my information.
The WCF held a special conference specifically to evaluate NB and decide if it was a valid method that could be *included* as part of their curriculum.
There are farriers in the UK who do use NB principles exclusively, with the blessing of the WCF. But NO WHERE have I said or implied that NB was accepted as a replacement for their basic shoeing protocol! GEEHSH...
quit reading something into this that was not written.

NOW as to written exact cites/references to the acceptance.....since I personally do not have them and I got this information from Dave himself, instead of calling me a liar please contact Dave Nicholls at TFP to get the ecact cites. Here are E-mail addresses .
farriery.is@tfp.uk.com or dave@tfp.uk.com
Patty

[calshoer]

Please spare me the usual illogical, nonsensical, "If you don't like it, you don't understand it", arguments. The statements you make clearly indicate that you do not understand it. (ie that you are ingnorant of all the facts) .

[calshoer]

The feral model, on which NB is undeniably based, is demonstrably flawed when one attempts to apply its precepts to domestic horses in use because it does not adequately differentiate between fronts and hinds NB protocols clearly differentiate between the function of the fronts and hinds,and take all the MODERN research of biomechanics of both ends into consideration. Your unflappable disbelief despite what is presented is frankly getting tiring. I say black you say white, I see red you see green. Its a childish approach to discussion Tom. and, worse yet, NB does not consider use as a primary criterion in either trim or shoe selection.Again you are uninformed. In applying NB protocols a farrier will choose whatever shoe package he/she deems best for the job, including but certainly not limited to: eventers front or hind, aluminum NB, steel NB lites ,steel regular NB, handmades, half rounds, various brands of rim shoes, various alumimum race plates, world plates , sliders of various dimentions, studs, all kinds of pads, all kinds of fill materials, etc etc etc. The list is unending.

AS to the trim, it is true that the foot IS trimmed to NB guidelines no matter what thew job, in order to create a *balanced base* for the shoe package of choice, which chosen BY THE JOB of the horse. Any changes in the overall finished balance after the trim ( breakover, bone alignment, heel support whatever) can be made with the package.
Given you assertation (or rather accusation) that the NB protocol trim is *not* deemed by the horse's job , I can therefore assume that you sometimes deliberately trim a foot in an unbalanced manner for certain jobs?
Patty

[clinkercjf]

Why is it called natural? The feral horses involved in the so called studies (more like observations from what I can gather) do not live in a "natural" environment. The Pryor Mountain horses for example, are fenced into their natural range wich is pretty poor country at best. I believe if I was one of the horses who called that country my home range I would be packing up and moving to the lush bottoms of Rotten Grass Creek! Wonder how much different those natural feet would look?

[John Emsley]

Patty in Gray
Again you are uninformed. In applying NB protocols a farrier will choose whatever shoe package he/she deems best for the job, including but certainly not limited to: eventers front or hind, aluminum NB, steel NB lites ,steel regular NB, handmades, half rounds, various brands of rim shoes, various alumimum race plates, world plates , sliders of various dimentions, studs, all kinds of pads, all kinds of fill materials, etc etc etc. The list is unending.

This will surprise a lot of people! Then again NB protocol is a mix of the "Tried and New" IMO. Seems as though the hard line is softening by broadening the acceptance of other style shoes other than the NB only. This will probably be one of the cornerstones to eventual acceptance by other certification groups like the AFA, WCF etc.
I strongly doubt that the use of shoes other than NB would be permitted at a NB certification exam.

AS to the trim, it is true that the foot IS trimmed to NB guidelines no matter what thew job, in order to create a *balanced base* for the shoe package of choice, which chosen BY THE JOB of the horse. Any changes in the overall finished balance after the trim ( breakover, bone alignment, heel support whatever) can be made with the package.

The trim guideline and shoe placement, is be a tougher sell, even though a "balanced base" is a balanced base. Many of the paying public sees the traditional setting as normal and heaven forbid anything goes wrong, the new guy on the block is the culprit. :(
John

[Phil Armitage]

Natural Balance principles are a great tool to assist the farrier in recognizing distortion, what to remove and what to leave. Show me any other set of principles that go into the detail that Gene does to educate farriers on how to trim. None, natta and zero.

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer;-NB protocols clearly .......
AS to the trim, it is true that the foot IS trimmed to NB guidelines no matter what thew job, in order to create a *balanced base* for the shoe package of choice, which chosen BY THE JOB of the horse. Any changes in the overall finished balance after the trim ( breakover, bone alignment, heel support whatever) can be made with the package.
Given you assertation (or rather accusation) that the NB protocol trim is *not* deemed by the horse's job , I can therefore assume that you sometimes deliberately trim a foot in an unbalanced manner for certain jobs?


To shorten various response'(s)(d)'~~ I have one question(s) to the fact of re-certifications. If things are update per the NBS protocols where is the new data? Most data that is worthy is updates is done every 3-5 years. Thus the presented data that Gene put forth in the original AAEP presentation in "94(circa).
I am not talking so called assiociate data but his own?
Where is the data from ~~"This is what happened 10-15 +years later."
If there is data why hasn't been presented at any AAEP that I have been present at in the last 5 years?

If certification is dependant on a 2-3 year renewal based on "new" research where is the data from Gene studying the herd(s) of and resultants of longevity?

If renewal was , as stated above, based upon data, new, where is the variances in enviroments across this country~~Tybee, Ga., Maryland , Monte La Salle Range, UT so on and so forth? Have seen these herds for myself.

Stating these questions as part-time scientist and full farrier. I use what works for the "situation" not one protocol or methodology.

Again, data collected by Gene not an assiociate or by assiociation.

[Phil Armitage]

Anyone can go for any credentials and anyone would be welcome with open arms. :rolleyes:

[calshoer]

Seems as though the hard line is softening by broadening the acceptance of other style shoes other than the NB only.Other shoes that are not *just now* being acccepted into NB shoeing . In fact it NB shoeing was not designed around the NB Shoe.
It was the other way around. In the beginning, various brands of shoes were being modified to fit NB paramaters long before NB shoes were actually developed.
The shoes were developed at the request of farriers who were tired of banging out other shoes to fit the paramaeters. Primarily St.Croix eventers. The increasing acceptance is from the science that is coming in from everywhere now that supports various aspects of the NB principles in domestic horse use. (despite Tom S's protestations that none exists)
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer;.... The increasing acceptance is from the science that is coming in from everywhere now that supports various aspects of the NB principles in domestic horse use. (despite Tom S's protestations that none exists)


"Science from Gene not by an assiociate or assiciation."

read "All Bowker's Work's" that are approved by vet medical research periodical~~ no where does he reference NBS or feral feet. Might be mistaken but probally not~~~ were are talking about published and presented in the AVMA or AJVR.

[Phil Armitage]

"Science from Gene not by an assiociate or assiciation."

read "All Bowker's Work's" that are approved by vet medical research periodical~~ no where does he reference NBS or feral feet. Might be mistaken but probally not~~~ were are talking about published and presented in the AVMA or AJVR.

FYI Jaye, Bowker's work supports Gene's principles. Thought everyone knew that. Old news.

[Jaye Perry]

FYI Jaye, Bowker's work supports Gene's principles. Thought everyone knew that. Old news.


Quote and paste where "published work supports NBS, word for word...? I'll shut UP! Word for word, not parapharsed or assiociated by normal physiology.

[George Geist]

a farrier will choose whatever shoe package he/she deems best for the job, including but certainly not limited to: eventers front or hind, aluminum NB, steel NB lites ,steel regular NB, handmades, half rounds, various brands of rim shoes, various alumimum race plates, world plates , sliders of various dimentions, studs, all kinds of pads, all kinds of fill materials, etc etc etc. The list is unending. If thats the case then why do you shoe every horse the same as you said on post #13 on the pads forever thread?

Also, dont get too mad at Jack Mac just because he feels about as strongly as you do about this style of shoeing. Soon as he posts again you'll have your hands full and it should win the silver popcorn bowl:D
George

[George Geist]

FYI Jaye, Bowker's work supports Gene's principles. Thought everyone knew that. Old news.
Hey Phil,
Is this the same guy who coined the term "sole callous"?
George

[calshoer]

To shorten various response'(s)(d)'~~ I have one question(s) to the fact of re-certifications. If things are update per the NBS protocols where is the new data? Most data that is worthy is updates is done every 3-5 years. Thus the presented data that Gene put forth in the original AAEP presentation in "94(circa).
I am not talking so called assiociate data but his own?
Where is the data from ~~"This is what happened 10-15 +years later."
If there is data why hasn't been presented at any AAEP that I have been present at in the last 5 years? Jaye first, since I said nothing about "updating", (which is not quite the same as "re-certifying") I am not sure what what the revelance is of that question.
And at any rate, research one by independant researchers who are NOT affiliated with NBH would be considered by most people to be more valid than that done by the person often falsly accused of just doing research to sell product, dont you think?
Most of the modification or improvements in the NB protocol that have occured since way back whe nyou saw the "baby steps" into it have been primarily based on research done by other people around the world (such as for example like Meike Van Heel's and Hinterhofer in the Netherlands, Allen Wilson et all in the UK, all the MRI studies that have come in recently from severa places,and Denoix's work on the coffin joint, etc etc. ) NB is designed to compliment the findings of those studies as to where internal stresses and injuries come from.
Patty

[calshoer]

Hey Phil,
Is this the same guy who coined the term "sole callous"?
GeorgeI'll answer this one. Don't know of Gene Or Bowker coined it. However, since the apropriateness of the NAME of that structure has already been discussed to death here, and it is widely agreed that a better term could have been chosen, you can call the thicker ridge of non exfoliating functional horn that is situated around the solar margin of P3 whatever you darn well please. :D
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye first, since I said nothing about "updating", (which is not quite the same as "re-certifying") I am not sure what what the revelance is of that question.
And at any rate, research one by independant researchers who are NOT affiliated with NBH would be considered by most people to be more valid than that done by the person often falsly accused of just doing research to sell product, dont you think?
Most of the modification or improvements in the NB protocol that have occured since way back whe nyou saw the "baby steps" into it have been primarily based on research done by other people around the world (such as for example like Meike Van Heel's and Hinterhofer in the Netherlands, Allen Wilson et all in the UK, all the MRI studies that have come in recently from severa places,and Denoix's work on the coffin joint, etc etc. ) NB is designed to compliment the findings of those studies as to where internal stresses and injuries come from.
Patty

I said, "not by assiociate or assiociation". That research, Gene's, would quantify some things I and others have found out about NBS methodology in "real world" shoeing rather than controls.

[calshoer]

I strongly doubt that the use of shoes other than NB would be permitted at a NB certification exam. Wrong. Actually, the modification of another brand of shoe to a NB fit to a pattern is REQUIRED as part of the NB exam. When I was first going to NB clinics back in 96, we had to modify everything that was not going into aluminum because there were no steel NB shoes.
Patty

[George Geist]

I suggest that you stop making slanderous "pulled out of your hat" asumptions, George. Get your facts right. In order to re-certify for level 2 or 3 you have to actually RE TEST every two years.

Ok so are you guys that forgetful that you're liable to forget how to shoe a horse? Since you have not satisfactorily explained to Jaye Perry, Tom Bloomer, and others how this protocal changes from year to year then obviously it's to generate revenue for somebody. A page out of the Ralph Casey book for sure.
George

[Phil Armitage]

Quote and paste where "published work supports NBS, word for word...? I'll shut UP! Word for word, not parapharsed or assiociated by normal physiology.

For those who don't mind the word "Natural" I will refer to Gene's principles. For those who don't like the word "Natural" I will refer to Bowker. :D

I will find Bowkers words and you can compare.

[Phil Armitage]

Ok so are you guys that forgetful that you're liable to forget how to shoe a horse? Since you have not satisfactorily explained to Jaye Perry, Tom Bloomer, and others how this protocal changes from year to year then obviously it's to generate revenue for somebody. A page out of the Ralph Casey book for sure.
George


Because Gene is open to new data and ideas and wants his students to get the latest information that he has gained. Simple.

[Phil Armitage]

It would be better if those of you that have questions contact Gene directly he is easy to talk to. This way you will gain a better understanding.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

NB protocols clearly differentiate between the function of the fronts and hinds,and take all the MODERN research of biomechanics of both ends into consideration.

Do tell? Funny, I could've sworn you once determined that Archimedes was irrelevant when compared to NB's so-called "scientific" basis.

Your unflappable disbelief despite what is presented is frankly getting tiring.

If you find my skepticism "tiring", you have only to put down your pom poms and present any bona fide scientific evidence that supports NB's dogma. Ovnicek, Bowker, and the usual suspects need not apply.

I say black you say white, I see red you see green. Its a childish approach to discussion Tom.

While you may find my failure to genuflect in the presence of NB's unsupported dogma to be "childish", I find the failure of its adherents to question NB's dogma to be intellectually indefensible and typical of the dependence on junkscience that pervades the industry.

Again you are uninformed. In applying NB protocols a farrier will choose whatever shoe package he/she deems best for the job, including but certainly not limited to: eventers front or hind, aluminum NB, steel NB lites ,steel regular NB, handmades, half rounds, various brands of rim shoes, various alumimum race plates, world plates , sliders of various dimentions, studs, all kinds of pads, all kinds of fill materials, etc etc etc. The list is unending.

Do tell? Funny, every time I see a NB foot, front or hind, it looks pretty much the same and I believe you're on record as saying you'd never fit a shoe with a perimeter fit on either end. Evidently, the list gets pretty short when reality rears it's ugly head.

AS to the trim, it is true that the foot IS trimmed to NB guidelines no matter what thew job, in order to create a *balanced base* for the shoe package of choice, which chosen BY THE JOB of the horse. Any changes in the overall finished balance after the trim ( breakover, bone alignment, heel support whatever) can be made with the package.

"Trimmed to NB guidelines no matter what thew (the?) job?" Given the vast differences in the primary functions of fronts and hinds, your statement is a better indictment of NB protocols than I could ever write and fully supports my criticism of its dogma. Thank you!

Given you assertation (or rather accusation) that the NB protocol trim is *not* deemed by the horse's job , I can therefore assume that you sometimes deliberately trim a foot in an unbalanced manner for certain jobs?

Yes'm, I've deliberately trimmed tens of thousands of feet to be slightly lower to the inside of the hinds or outside on fronts (i.e., out of textbook M/L balance) in order to direct turnover, which changes the plane of the arc described by the foot during flight, which often stops the horse from whacking itself. I've also trimmed a few barrel horses and even the odd ASB slightly lower to one side or the other for the same reason. While it may not coincide with NB dogma, the practice is an extremely simple, yet effective, fix for interference problems. I'm admittedly results oriented and, in my small experience, when one stops the whacking, the horse's performance invariably improves: Does your vast experience differ?

[calshoer]

Such a quandary! Shall I believe you or my lying eyes? One can only wonder why Ovnicek was quoted as saying, "The natural hoof pattern and function in feral horses is healthy and attainable for most horses." [Western Horseman, p.56, July, 2007]

Perhaps he was only kidding.First that was a barefoot article, not shoeing and the quote pertained to those hooves that were suitable to go barefoot soundly anyway.
Second,a few of those so called quotes in that particular article were not in fact verbatum quotes, or were twisted a bit out of context from the poritgina interview. (I know how that works as it has happened to me in the past, too , in interviews. )
Gene did not get the chance to review the finished article before publication. That said, the statement is correct anyway when you consider the word "MOST rather than ALL, AND that it was intended in its original context to be applied only to those hooves sound enough to go barefoot anyway. Gene is often the first person to say that many domestic hooves 'aint got the right stuff, will never have the right stuff, and will never look anything close to a feral hoof. :D
Patty

[George Geist]

Because Gene is open to new data and ideas and wants his students to get the latest information that he has gained. Simple.
So then he and all his followers will say that what was taught up till then was wrong?:confused:
George

[calshoer]

Yes'm, I've deliberately trimmed tens of thousands of feet to be slightly lower to the inside of the hinds or outside on fronts (i.e., out of textbook M/L balance) in order to direct turnover, which changes the plane of the arc described by the foot during flight, which often stops the horse from whacking itself. Funny that I have *never had to do that* to prevent "whacking" since I have begun applying NB balance principles. I've also trimmed a few barrel horses and even the odd ASB slightly lower to one side or the other for the same reason. While it may not coincide with NB dogma,Maybe it does..maybe you are actually trimming them to the sole plane and dont even know it....:p the practice is an extremely simple, yet effective, fix for interference problems. So is what I do. I'm admittedly results oriented So am I and, in my small experience, when one stops the whacking, the horse's performance invariably improves: Does your vast experience differ?My results probably don't differ.But I dont have to trim one out of balance to get them. Patty

[Jaye Perry]

EDeSocio;......So, when I see CF, CTF or CJF, I know what went into gaining those initials, but the slick CNBF and CNBBT initials... at first I was like whoa!!! what is CNBB Torture? Then it came to me.. Ok a little slow here... but still, what exactly when into gaining the Certified Natural Balance Farrier and the Certified Natural Balance Barefoot Trimmer initials?

.....


The NBS, CNBF and or CNBT are all a colloquel methedology that enhances a very neutral but 'Nice" word(ing).
But wording whether "Natural", Certified farrier or Journeyman handles ~~~they all tested to a "standard", offered by each organized indenty. Each indenty has/have good and bad methods that don't suit all peoples or all horses.:rolleyes:

[Jaye Perry]

And last but not least the "beloved" JHU:eek:

[Phil Armitage]

So then he and all his followers will say that what was taught up till then was wrong?:confused:
George

Just as we think we have it figured out some horse will come along and humble ya. It is better to say we have found a truth not the truth. :)

George, teaching is not easy. How would you go about teaching someone to trim and shoe? You have been doing this awhile now, must have some thoughts as to what you do and why. Same goes for Tom Stoval and Jaye Perry. Guys instead of attacking someones ideas, what are your ideas and why?

[jack mac]

Anyone can go for any credentials and anyone would be welcome with open arms. :rolleyes:my be over there but not here in Australia NB wouldn't get you trade accredited it wouldn't even be recognized as proper prior learning, no trade accreditation no plating licence if you wanted to plate horses in NB stile plates you would have to do that after you were licensed but there wouldn't be a a trainer with in Koo wee would hire you :rolleyes:

[Phil Armitage]

my be over there but not hear in Australia NB wouldn't get you trade accredited it wouldn't even be recognized as proper prior learning, no trade accreditation no plating licence if you wanted to plate horses in NB stile plates you would have to do that after you were licensed but there wouldn't be a a trainer with in Koo wee would hire you :rolleyes:

I didnt mention NB.

[George Geist]

George, teaching is not easy. How would you go about teaching someone to trim and shoe? You have doing this awhile now, must have some thoughts as to what you do and why. Same goes for Tom Stoval and Jaye Perry. By the tried and true military method of K.I.S.S. I also wouldn't be making a cottage industry of certifications. I find that beneath contempt:mad:
George

[Jaye Perry]

jack mac-my be over there but not here in Australia NB wouldn't get you trade accredited it wouldn't even be recognized as proper prior learning, no trade accreditation no plating licence if you wanted to plate horses in NB stile plates you would have to do that after you were licensed but there wouldn't be a a trainer with in Koo wee would hire you :rolleyes:

The World Racing Plate(WRP) didn't go over well 'down under"?

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

Re: One can only wonder why Ovnicek was quoted as saying, "The natural hoof pattern and function in feral horses is healthy and attainable for most horses." [Western Horseman, p.56, July, 2007]

First that was a barefoot article, not shoeing and the quote pertained to those hooves that were suitable to go barefoot soundly anyway.
Second,a few of those so called quotes in that particular article were not in fact verbatum quotes, or were twisted a bit out of context from the poritgina interview. (I know how that works as it has happened to me in the past, too , in interviews. )
Gene did not get the chance to review the finished article before publication. That said, the statement is correct anyway when you consider the word "MOST rather than ALL, AND that it was intended in its original context to be applied only to those hooves sound enough to go barefoot anyway. Gene is often the first person to say that many domestic hooves 'aint got the right stuff, will never have the right stuff, and will never look anything close to a feral hoof.

The salient point is that both Mr. Ovnicek and yourself appear to believe a feral foot is a desirable model (i.e., "healthy and attainable for most horses...") for domestic horses, which belief has neither scientific nor pragmatic basis. :)

[Phil Armitage]

By the tried and true military method of K.I.S.S. I also wouldn't be making a cottage industry of certifications. I find that beneath contempt:mad:
George

Not enough info George. How would you teach someone? How do you trim the frog, the sole, the hoof wall and fit the shoe and why? Since you think it is as simple as using the KISS philosophy this should be an easy essay for you.

[George Geist]

Not enough info George. How would you teach someone? How do you trim the frog, the sole, the hoof wall and fit the shoe and why?
Youre a military guy Phil, step by step, by the numbers, remember?

[Jaye Perry]

Tom Stovall, CJF;......The salient point is that both Mr. Ovnicek and yourself appear to believe a feral foot is a desirable model (i.e., "healthy and attainable for most horses...") for domestic horses, which belief has neither scientific nor pragmatic basis. :)

"Most" is the 'catch word'~~ Hood stated a "3 OR 4 point wear pattern" in bare footed hores. Barefooted being~~ had shoes, barefooted for a period of time and re-accessed~~~~

As asked before, where is the latest-"reaccessed" NBS data researched by gene himself?

[Phil Armitage]

Youre a military guy Phil, step by step, by the numbers, remember?

Come on George, your disapointing me. You trim and shoe horses everyday.

[George Geist]

Come on George, your disapointing me. You trim and shoe horses everyday.
True, and so do you. That method worked well for me as a beginner so I think is best way to teach beginners.

What do you find wrong with that methodology? Not enough $5 words?

[jack mac]

why not you might ask Phil ? that's because its about winning races & not breaking horses down.

[Jaye Perry]

jack mac;-why not you might ask Phil ? that's because its about winning race & not breaking horses down

I am asking you, one seems to have an interest or savvy in track horses 'down under".
I never liked 'em myself except for crippled "can turners" after they had their coffin joints injected.

[George Geist]

Where in the world is Gary Hill tonight? This is mega popcorn!:D

[calshoer]

So then he and all his followers will say that what was taught up till then was wrong?
GeorgeOf course not. He is open to the EVOLUTION of a principle which he has ALWAYS said is not to be considered an "end all be all" .
Just as the application of heart bar shoes had some evolution over time (using various materials, the development of plastic heart bar pads , adjustable heart bars, etc) NB protocols evolve .
The original heart bars were not "wrong" were they? NO. They just got more sophisticated as they were used by more hands, and gained more 'variations on the theme' so to speak. This is the same thing , evolutionarily .
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

True, and so do you. That method worked well for me as a beginner so I think is best way to teach beginners.

What do you find wrong with that methodology? Not enough $5 words?

Doug Butler says if the hoof pastern angle is broken forward trim more heel if it is broken back trim more toe. Is that enough information for a beginner? Here is another one, trim the sole until it gives to thumb pressure, then stop. Here is a common one I heard as a beginner, trim the toe and never touch the heels.

Here's a classic trimming the foot is like carving a wooden Indian. :rolleyes:

Waite I remember another one, never put your nails into the white line.

[reillyshoe]

Out of curiosity, is Bowker is such a fan of Natural Balance, why does he advocate the Physiological Trim and not the NB trim? Additionally, I have yet to hear Bowker advocate any shoeing. Everything I have heard or read of his thinking is to suggest barefoot is preferable to trimming.
Am I mistaken?

Also Patty, just to clarify, has the WCF endorsed NB in writing anywhere? Or do they endorse research advocating such things as moving the breakover in a caudal direction? Before you refer me to Nichols, I think you brought it up...

I have no problem with the idea of certification to a standard, arbitrary of otherwise- in fact I think it moves the farrier industry forward. None of these certifications (CJF, RJF, NB or KC's Phd) are accredited and are therefore only worth what a horse owner determines them to be worth. Just a thought.

[Phil Armitage]

why not you might ask Phil ? that's because its about winning races & not breaking horses down.

Ah, ha, not breaking horses down helps win races. Now we are getting somewhere. So Jack, how do you trim and shoe to help not break horses down?

[jack mac]

Doug Butler says if the hoof pastern angle is broken forward trim more heel if it is broken back trim more toe. Is that enough information for a beginner? Here is another one, trim the sole until it gives to thumb pressure, then stop. Here is a common one I heard as a beginner, trim the toe and never touch the heels.

Here's a classic trimming the foot is like carving a wooden Indian. :rolleyes:

Waite I remember another one, never put your nails into the white line.whats it matter how the hoof is trimmed with NB the shoe never fits the foot properly anyways it a classic fit the foot to the shoe & all its trappings

[Phil Armitage]

Out of curiosity, is Bowker is such a fan of Natural Balance, why does he advocate the Physiological Trim and not the NB trim? Additionally, I have yet to hear Bowker advocate any shoeing. Everything I have heard or read of his thinking is to suggest barefoot is preferable to trimming.
Am I mistaken?


Physiologica trim, NB trim what is the difference?

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer;...... They just got more sophisticated as they were used by more hands, and gained more 'variations on the theme' so to speak. This is the same thing , evolutionarily .
.....



Glad you agree that shoeing is evolutionary; where is Gene's dats on the evolution of the "feral'" model of the NBS protocols? His OWN studies of evolution since AAEP in '94.
i may seem replaying and old record~~~ Fleming on Charlier's "natural" shoeing protocol in the Late 1860's and early to mid 1870's~~ " It worked on some and did poorly on others. A little more clarification of the methodology would have made for better statsistics".

Fleming was a little biased and he bashed evrybody!

[Phil Armitage]

whats it matter how the hoof is trimmed with NB the shoe never fits the foot properly anyways it a classic fit the foot to the shoe & all its trappings

You do not agree the most important part of the job is the trim?

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Phil, Dr. Bowker does not support NB shoeing or any type of shoeing for anything. After setting through his lecture I got the idea that he pretty much hates shoes. Or in his words, peripheral loading devices. That's what he called them for two days and each time he said it there was disdain in his voice and actions. He did state that he felt Gene's trimming protocols were on the right track and that he supported that but did not support the addition of any peripheral loading device to a horses hoof at any time for any reason. That's just my experience from being there.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, Dr. Bowker does not support NB shoeing or any type of shoeing for anything. After setting through his lecture I got the idea that he pretty much hates shoes. Or in his words, peripheral loading devices. That's what he called them for two days and each time he said it there was disdain in his voice and actions. He did state that he felt Gene's trimming protocols were on the right track and that he supported that but did not support the addition of any peripheral loading device to a horses hoof at any time for any reason. That's just my experience from being there.

I did not say shoes!!! Principles. Bowkers research supports NB principles that the back of the foot needs to be engaged.

Besides Bowker has no experience trimming or shoeing.

[Jaye Perry]

reillyshoe;-Out of curiosity, is Bowker is such a fan of Natural Balance, why does he advocate the Physiological Trim and not the NB trim? Additionally, I have yet to hear Bowker advocate any shoeing. Everything I have heard or read of his thinking is to suggest barefoot is preferable to trimming.
Am I mistaken?



I can't find an endorsement of NBS. there was some sub-public colloquial studies done in a so called "get together" that stated that " today's Arabs are the closest domesticate to the feral in microscopic structure(s)."


.....

I have no problem with the idea of certification to a standard, arbitrary of otherwise- in fact I think it moves the farrier industry forward. None of these certifications (CJF, RJF, NB or KC's Phd) are accredited and are therefore only worth what a horse owner determines them to be worth. Just a thought..


Mr. Rielly; The Practical!

[reillyshoe]

I think the NB shoes are part of the NB principle.

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Phil, just stating what I heard. I know what you meant but as Pat points out, the shoes are part of the principles. And no he doesn't feel Gene's trim is the best. He feels one's like Pete Ramey and Jaimey Jackson are better. Words from his lecture and in my notes.:rolleyes:

[reillyshoe]

Not to get off topic, and I might be wrong, but doesn't Bowker advocate trimming to a ground parallel solar surface of P3, while Gene advocates a trim that generally results in a 3-5 degree solar angle of P3?

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage;...Principles. Bowkers research supports NB principles that the back of the foot needs to be engaged.

Leave a horse barefoot for 4 months and Bowker's studies would apply also~~~ said before, basic physiology.



Besides Bowker has no experience trimming or shoeing.

His is an academic, schooled in basic anatomy and physiology:rolleyes:

[Jaye Perry]

Not to get off topic, and I might be wrong, but doesn't Bowker advocate trimming to a ground parallel solar surface of P3, while Gene advocates a trim that generally results in a 3-5 degree solar angle of P3?

Your off topic!!! Staff, STAFFFF!!!!!!:eek:

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Pat, from what I remember it was from ground level up to 3 degrees. would have to look in my notes again. Prefers ground level if possible.

[reillyshoe]

I think you have swear words in your signature Jaye.
Now I am off topic twice.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer

Re: Purposely trimming out of balance

Funny that I have *never had to do that* to prevent "whacking" since I have begun applying NB balance principles.

Do tell? Since your NB epiphany, how many years have you held a plater's license (if ever) and how many of those years were you plating horses at bull rings? In my experience, it's plumb easy to plate nice horses at mile tracks, but plating cheap horses at a bull ring is a whole 'nuther ballgame. No disrespect intended, but I don't think your personal database is extensive enough for you to formulate a meaningful response in defense of the alleged validity of NB precepts as applied to flat racers.

Maybe it does..maybe you are actually trimming them to the sole plane and dont even know it....

To tell God's truth, I wouldn't know a "sole plane" if we were formally introduced.

:p So is what I do. So am I My results probably don't differ.But I dont have to trim one out of balance to get them.

Again, no disrespect intended, but have you ever plated runners at a bull ring?

[Jaye Perry]

I think you have swear words in your signature Jaye.
Now I am off topic twice.
used to, staff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jaye Perry]

BS-Horseshoeing-Pat, from what I remember it was from ground level up to 3 degrees. would have to look in my notes again. Prefers ground level if possible.


I like Positive palmar angle when starting and zero palmar angle at the end of the shoeing cycle. Thus palmar angle is determined per the horse and per each foot. Starting at zero palmar angle gives a negative palmar angle at the end of a shoeing cycle.

[Phil Armitage]

I think the NB shoes are part of the NB principle.

Key word "Part". There are many parts to NB principles. Personally I like the shoes for therapeutic shoeing when I need more breakover and cannot achieve it with a trim. No different than the Morrison shoe if you hit the heels and branches with a grinder in my opinion. Or if you reshape an eventer. Nice thing about the NB shoe is the, rolled toe, width in the material in the toe for protection and sole relief. Good stuff that can help a farrier give horses what they need. Just another tool in the tool box.

[Jason Maki]

Way off topic, but given the articulating surfaces of PII and PIII is it actually possible to have a correct HPA with a o palmer angle PIII? a real, not loaded question.
Jason

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, just stating what I heard. I know what you meant but as Pat points out, the shoes are part of the principles. And no he doesn't feel Gene's trim is the best. He feels one's like Pete Ramey and Jaimey Jackson are better. Words from his lecture and in my notes.:rolleyes:

Ramey gives credit to Gene for a lot of his principles. Compare everyone's principles includeing Ducket and we as farriers can walk away confident that the information is good stuff.

[Phil Armitage]

used to, staff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, By the way George used a bad word and now I will also, by saying he uses the KISS method. Again off topic and now this thread will get deleted. ;)

By the way, welcome back. Are you done studying?

[Jaye Perry]

Jason Maki-Way off topic, but given the articulating surfaces of PII and PIII is it actually possible to have a correct HPA with a o palmer angle PIII? a real, not loaded question.



Depending on capusular configuration: IMO, correct HPA includes PI:D

[Jaye Perry]

-Phil Armitage;-...
By the way, welcome back. Are you done studying?


Way back on pg 3 I asked you to site published literature about Bowker and NBS ; i.e. endorsemnet per say~~~still waiting Phil or are you just gonna keep the tote count going up or are going to do some "Real Studying" and reference work?:rolleyes:

[reillyshoe]

To tell God's truth, I wouldn't know a "sole plane" if we were formally introduced - Stovall

Very funny.

Back on topic-
You know, with regard to all of these certifications, nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. If you don't like it- don't do it! If you think it will help your business, or your credibility, or a challenge, or (like Rick, who is probably a closet Strasserite just for the added letters after his name) you would like to have every letter in the alphabet following your name....

Is this a big deal somehow?

[calshoer]

whats it matter how the hoof is trimmed with NB the shoe never fits the foot properly anyways it a classic fit the foot to the shoe & all its trappingsYour showing much ignorance about NB, jac. Its mostly about the trim , and much less about the shoe. And the shoe is indeed fit differently than you prefer, and shaped to fit the foot, not the other way around) but since you don't do NB it shouldn't matter to you anyway.
Patty

[calshoer]

Back on topic-
You know, with regard to all of these certifications, nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. If you don't like it- don't do it! If you think it will help your business, or your credibility, or a challenge, or (like Rick, who is probably a closet Strasserite just for the added letters after his name) you would like to have every letter in the alphabet following your name....

Is this a big deal somehow? BINGO....and thank you, Pat!
Patty

[calshoer]

Way off topic, but given the articulating surfaces of PII and PIII is it actually possible to have a correct HPA with a o palmer angle PIII? a real, not loaded question.
JasonVery rarely. The pastern angle would have to be a low 45 to align the HPA with a "0" palmer angle P3.
Patty

[calshoer]

Also Patty, just to clarify, has the WCF endorsed NB in writing anywhere? Or do they endorse research advocating such things as moving the breakover in a caudal direction? Before you refer me to Nichols, I think you brought it up...I did not originally bring it up; Rick did. However I joined in because I got the news verbally from Gene O right after it happened, and later confirmed directly from David .
Since David was one of the principles in the special conference that the WCF held on the subject, if the decision is in writing (as it should be somewhere) he will be the one with the cites. It's as close to the source as I am able to reference for you. Sorry I don't have it myself for you but of course I was not a party to it.
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

Way back on pg 3 I asked you to site published literature about Bowker and NBS ; i.e. endorsemnet per say~~~still waiting Phil or are you just gonna keep the tote count going up or are going to do some "Real Studying" and reference work?:rolleyes:

My interpretation of Bowker's research it supports Gene's research. That is the best I can do. Are you saying Bowker disagrees with Gene?

[Phil Armitage]

To tell God's truth, I wouldn't know a "sole plane" if we were formally introduced - Stovall

Very funny.

Back on topic-
You know, with regard to all of these certifications, nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. If you don't like it- don't do it! If you think it will help your business, or your credibility, or a challenge, or (like Rick, who is probably a closet Strasserite just for the added letters after his name) you would like to have every letter in the alphabet following your name....

Is this a big deal somehow?

Bingo, in my opinion it is all good information. Part of continueing education and it all helps.

[Jaye Perry]

Very rarely. The pastern angle would have to be a low 45 to align the HPA with a "0" palmer angle P3.
Patty

Nothing like this:rolleyes:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/Picture1-2.jpg

[Jaye Perry]

My interpretation of Bowker's research it supports Gene's research. That is the best I can do. Are you saying Bowker disagrees with Gene?


No, asking you do do some "REAL RESEARCH" and shoe horses for your own determinations and disseminations rather than taking people's word 's as gospel.

[Phil Armitage]

No, asking you do do some "REAL RESEARCH" and shoe horses for your own determinations and disseminations rather than taking people's word 's as gospel.

So then you agree the foot is idiopathic? :rolleyes:

[EDeSocio]

Let's face facts, the NB idea came about from studying the wild mustangs... not wild mustangs and domestic horses. They started to look at the domestic horses because they were laming horses left and right.. why do you think shoeing horses hasn't changed in 2000 years but this extreme style has changed or "evolved" since it was introduced?

quote from hopeforsoundness.com/natbalance/natbalprinc.html
"Arrangements were made with the BLM to examine wild horse feet once these horses were in lateral recumbency."

for those who don't understand the $10 terms, Lateral (side) recumbency (laying in the prone position)

in other words, after the wild mustang (which in it's natural state is a lazy horse that does not run for more than 300 or 400 yards to get away from a predator on occasions) is chased by helicoptors, motorbikes and horsemen on shod horses for an average of 25 miles, they are running the fight out of them so they could herd them easily. Now let's go out there and pick up a wild mustangs hoof why don't we? Anyone with me? Right, so what do they do? Look at an overly worn hoof, from an animal that is laying on it's side (probably because it is so lame it can't stand and has totally given up) and study this hoof formation and say, this is the model of the strong viral "NATURAL", free *wild mustang*.... Americas horse!

Like Tom Stovall says, trimming a horse a certain way because that is the way the hoof is going to wear eventually is like buying a set of new tires and grinding the tread off because that is the way they are going to wear eventually....

[Eric Russell]

Doug Butler says if the hoof pastern angle is broken forward trim more heel if it is broken back trim more toe. Is that enough information for a beginner? Here is another one, trim the sole until it gives to thumb pressure, then stop. Here is a common one I heard as a beginner, trim the toe and never touch the heels.

Here's a classic trimming the foot is like carving a wooden Indian. :rolleyes:

Waite I remember another one, never put your nails into the white line.

I have one for ya too- if the toe doesn't fit, the rest of the shoe doesn't fit either.

[George Geist]

Doug Butler says if the hoof pastern angle is broken forward trim more heel if it is broken back trim more toe. Is that enough information for a beginner? Here is another one, trim the sole until it gives to thumb pressure, then stop. Here is a common one I heard as a beginner, trim the toe and never touch the heels.

Here's a classic trimming the foot is like carving a wooden Indian. :rolleyes:

Waite I remember another one, never put your nails into the white line.Gee thats pretty good Phil,
Is that nbs protocal 101?:p
George

[Rick Burten]

Let's face facts, the NB idea came about from studying the wild mustangs... not wild mustangs and domestic horses. They started to look at the domestic horses because they were laming horses left and right.. why do you think shoeing horses hasn't changed in 2000 years but this extreme style has changed or "evolved" since it was introduced?
Over the past 2000 years, shoeing has indeed changed to meet the needs or style(s) of the times. Think not? Peruse any old text and look at the shoes and how the trim is described. You don't seem to have a problem with a rocker toed or rolled toe shoe so the questions are, do you have a problem with squared toe shoes or blunt toed shoes or set back shoes of any kind/fabrication? To say that horseshoeing has not evolved over the milenia is to deny reality.

[Gary_Miller]

Show me any other set of principles that go into the detail that Gene does to educate farriers on how to trim. None, natta and zero.(The following statement is not saying that the way Gene teaches to trim is wrong so don't take it as such.)

We must alway remember that no matter how good something is taught or marketed. If its wrong its wrong and if it right it right. Its important to evaluate everthing we know in order to make a sound dicission.

As for me I don't have any opion if NB is good or bad. However, like any shoe and technuiqe its just another tool I can place in my toolbox. It does not matter how it was develope or marketed as long as it works. What I know about NBS if it applied properly according to NB guidelines I think it can be useful. Is it a cure all for everything, no sir nothing ever is.

[Phil Armitage]

Article by Gene in response to Tom Stoval's article.

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/techsupport/faq/nonspec.html

[Joey Aczon]

The NB shoe is supposed to be a "corrective" shoe. I had a friend who graduated from Mission Farrier School.

So did the guy that did this hack job... (his client was actually a referal from the school itself)

http://horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6512

What's your point? Do you really think they teach people to shoe like this, reguardless of the school or protocol? Or do you think we have a case against the school for sending out cull students with "diplomas"? (or whatever credential they offer)

I'm leaning more toward the latter.

[Eric Russell]

Here ya go Phil, Ducket shows his way of determining how to trim feet.

http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/bumbaugh/duckettsdot.htm

[Phil Armitage]

Here ya go Phil, Ducket shows his way of determining how to trim feet.

http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/bumbaugh/duckettsdot.htm

He gives reference points, no where near the detailed information on anatomy and mechanics Gene writes about.

[Eric Russell]

He gives reference points, no where near the detailed information on anatomy and mechanics Gene writes about.

Oh I thought you said: Show me any other set of principles that go into the detail that Gene does to educate farriers on how to trim.

If you read it, it goes into pretty good detail on how Duckett would suggest trimming.

Strictly going with trimming feet. I'd say Duckett gets a little more indepth about how to trim feet.

[George Geist]

Article by Gene in response to Tom Stoval's article.

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/techsupport/faq/nonspec.html
I'm sure Mr Stovall will have plenty to say about that in his own right:)
George

[jack mac]

The whole point of shoeing a horse is to prevent excessive wear nothing more nothing less, good trimming & shoeing practises mimic the hoof as it was genetically intended to function for that animal, it should not hinder or attempt to alter what was intended in its purist form , With NB protocols nothing is further then that, taking a hoof that is abused by wear & tear & using that as your model to replicate & gauge all horses hooves by as the norm, is absurd & obscured & a true reflection of thinking gone madly wrong.

[EDeSocio]

Ahhh Joey, you have made me laugh so much... that shoe job is frightening. I see it a lot too.

Boy did I open a can of worms with this thread didn't I?

[Gary Hill]

Hey George, I'm stuffed!:D

[BS-Horseshoeing]

OK, off topic a little, but, Eric you don't know a dang thing about wild horse round ups. Yes what you describe has been done and even shown on tv some times. But, since I lived, worked, and hunted around the Pryor Mountains of Montana and the high red desert of Wyoming, both of which have herds of feral horses, and have been around these roundups, you could not be further from the truth. And yes I have personal experience and a friend who's father was on the BLM wild horse program in MT and worked year around with the herds.

Yes, helicoptors were used to find the horses, not to herd. Yes the horses do run some, but dang sure not 20 to 25 miles. They are not pushed hard like you see in the movies and there are traps and funnels to catch them in and hold them for rest before moving on. And they were observed laying down as well as in squeeze chutes. None seem to be to lame at the time. I'm not speaking of the ones Gene looked at but ones I saw. Your extravagant explanation is hog wash. As stated by Patty to someone else, get your fact STRAIGHT before opening your mouth and putting your foot in.

Sorry bud, had to say this. Some times things just get to a person.

I'm not defending NB but if your going to argue against it, have the right ammo.

[Eric Russell]

[quote=BS-Horseshoeing;86096]OK, off topic a little, but, Eric you don't know a dang thing about wild horse round ups.

Your right, I don't know a dang thing about wild horse round ups. Plus, I don't know what your talking about. Why did you decide to use my name. Are you trying to get me to type something in order to get banned?

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Not you Eric Russel, Eric DeSocio, the OP.

[Eric Russell]

ah! thanks for the clarification. I didn't want anyone to know I don't know anything about wild horse round ups:rolleyes:

[Joey Aczon]

Natural Balance credentials appear to have validity to folks who feel NB's precepts based on the feral foot in an abrasive environment are applicable to domestic horses in use. Obviously, since the model is not applicable to many domestic horses (e.g., long footed horses, drafters, etc.), the value of NB credentials as an indicator of the holder's ability to meet the needs of many horse in use is questionable.

I would like to "at the risk of Tom's scorn" share an experiance I had today.

I was under a TWH racking horse today, getting him fitted with a set of 1 1/2" x 1/2" with a turndown (actually a reset). This guy had a natural foot that was probably about 4 1/2" after I was done. This was my first time under this guy and he was a bit of a mess poor balance issues and IMO waaay too long for what he was doing. So I trimmed him up and spent about 30 mins in the aisleway of this barn having the horse walked and taking a few rasp strokes here and there trying to get him set up.

2 nailed the shoes and had one last pass to see him go, and this guy had a big old bodacious stride with a BIG heel first landing. I thought this was kinda funny given that most of these guy's that I used to do (before I started practicing NB protocols and "quit" shoeing them) would usually land flat in hand and wouldn't land like that except for in a bridle.

As I was driving the rest of the nails I noticed a couple things that actually made me laugh.

1. The back of the shoe was set just a tick behind the "widest part of the frog"

2. The relationship between the breakover and the widest part of the foot, and the widest part of the foot to the heel of the shoe was roughly 1/3 breakover to widest part of the foot to 2/3 heel to the widest part of the foot. (shoe was REALLY heavily rolled/worn almost to the back edge of the web)

Sound familar anyone?

I'm gonna be back there Thursday to do a few more horses, and take pics.

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Eric, I don't want you banned. You know a heck of a lot more than me and I need some learnen. Plus, the deal with Jaye and Purrington you guys put on was funny as all get out, I guess not to some, but Gary Hill and I both gave it 5 stars.:);)

Don't worry, I know the other Eric and he's an ok kind a guy.:D You know how farriers are.:eek:

[tbloomer]

Ok so are you guys that forgetful that you're liable to forget how to shoe a horse? Since you have not satisfactorily explained to Jaye Perry, Tom Bloomer, and others how this protocal changes from year to year then obviously it's to generate revenue for somebody. A page out of the Ralph Casey book for sure.
George
George,
Don't put words in my mouth. If the protocol is in continuing development then the certification should follow that development. Otherwise only those with the most recent certification would be certified according to the current protocol.

Since the certification is specifically about the NB protocol(s) the only way to maintain assurance of every candidate being up to date with changes is to require testing in the protocol as it evolves. Otherwise the organization cannot stand behind their certification because only those recently tested would have evidence that they knew the current protocol. In the world of business this is called quality control.

I know that is a difficult concept for most farrier associations to grasp, but we are talking about name branding and brand recognition. Whether or not you agree with the protocol, if you disagree with the business model it is because you don't understand the basic business fundamentals of market differentiation and name brand recognition. Your comparison to the BWFA is unfounded because the BWFA handed out and sold certifications without testing in order to get membership numbers. NB certifications are only given to candidates that complete the testing requirements with a passing score. Requiring retesting every two years is not just keeping up with changes, it also verifies that those bearing the certification are still able to meet the testing requirements and apply the protocol.

Maybe it is overkill, but other systems of certification (Information Technology) that use that model with a high degree of success in market recognition, it is good business. Evidently NB has decided NOT to follow the business model of the AFA, the Guild, and the Union. Instead of keeping their certification a secret, they are trying something that has actually worked in other venues, it's called marketing.

[calshoer]

Let's face facts, the NB idea came about from studying the wild mustangs... not wild mustangs and domestic horses. They started to look at the domestic horses because they were laming horses left and right.. Completely ,absolutely incorrect and *libelous*. Watch your step. Baron?? Patty

[jack mac]

OK, off topic a little, but, Eric you don't know a dang thing about wild horse round ups. Yes what you describe has been done and even shown on tv some times. But, since I lived, worked, and hunted around the Pryor Mountains of Montana and the high red desert of Wyoming, both of which have herds of feral horses, and have been around these roundups, you could not be further from the truth. And yes I have personal experience and a friend who's father was on the BLM wild horse program in MT and worked year around with the herds.

Yes, helicoptors were used to find the horses, not to herd. Yes the horses do run some, but dang sure not 20 to 25 miles. They are not pushed hard like you see in the movies and there are traps and funnels to catch them in and hold them for rest before moving on. And they were observed laying down as well as in squeeze chutes. None seem to be to lame at the time. I'm not speaking of the ones Gene looked at but ones I saw. Your extravagant explanation is hog wash. As stated by Patty to someone else, get your fact STRAIGHT before opening your mouth and putting your foot in.

Sorry bud, had to say this. Some times things just get to a person.

I'm not defending NB but if your going to argue against it, have the right ammo.I dont know much about your wild horses in the states but i have rounded up plenty of brumbys & as much as there feet where chipped knocked about, non of those horses had feet that resembled anything like an NB shoe & considering i was one of the blokes sorting which one would be dogged & which would be broke, i can promise you i took a good hard look they were worth more broke ;)

[EDeSocio]

Ben, I saw the round up on a Public Broadcasting System channel, and then work on horses for a lady who had a herd of the Kiger mustangs out in Washington. That is where I was getting all my info.
It is also where I noticed that there wasn't a dang difference between her wild mustangs hooves and any other horse hoof. A hoof is a hoof.
Some had big hooves, some had small hooves. But there wasn't any wild flaring or dipped toes, they all had good solid structures.
Don't worry bud, I appreciate your views and everything you have to add to the pot!

[jack mac]

o & by the way it wasn't like in the moves we just yarded up the water holes sat back put the bill on for a cuppa & waited for the thirst ones to wondering in they all have to drink ;)

[EDeSocio]

Completely ,absolutely incorrect and *libelous*. Watch your step. Baron?? Patty

What exactly are you calling incorrect? Where I stated that the protocols were started from studying the wild mustangs? Or that they started to claim they were studying the domestic horses after so many were going lame? Stop your absurd cry baby to Baron garbage. You can't take that someone differs from your opinion? A bit of a control freak are we?

[jack mac]

Completely ,absolutely incorrect and *libelous*. Watch your step. Baron?? Pattyjust out of curiosity how many wild horses you & Rick rounded up, just want to know if you got to see or seen there feet first hand that's all patty.

[calshoer]

What exactly are you calling incorrect? Where I stated that the protocols were started from studying the wild mustangs?it was comparing the feral hooves ot domestic. Or that they started to claim they were studying the domestic horses after so many were going lame? They were NOT " laming horses right and left" as you say. That my friend , is libel. Stop your absurd cry baby to Baron garbage. You can't take that someone differs from your opinion? A bit of a control freak are we?Now you ARE clearly breaking the forum rules. Nuff said. I have reported you to Baron. Its his call.
Patty

[tbloomer]

None of these certifications (CJF, RJF, NB or KC's Phd) are accredited and are therefore only worth what a horse owner determines them to be worth. Just a thought.
Accreditation is designed to support standardization and equivilence in teaching among academic institutions. Allows academic credits to be transferred between institutions. Assures that the same basic body of knowledge is taught in every accredited school.

Since there is no accrediting organization for farriery there cannot be any accreditation for the academic institutions which teach it. Furthermore no two farriers seem to agree on what the basic body of knowldege should be. Horse owners can only place value on what they know. Most farrier organizations seem to like the idea of keeping horse owners in the dark about the benefits of certification.

[EDeSocio]

Calshoer, keep your threats out of here!

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Eric, I've seen the same one, and that wasn't a real good example of how it's done. And that lady really over sensationalized alot of things. But it was her dime so it was her story.

Jack, I saw these horses long before I became a farrier and had no interest in them then so didn't look to hard at the feet. But never really saw anything out of the ordinary as you have said. I have seen a few dead ones also, and have taken more time lately to look at the hooves. Not alot different than any horse I've seen barefoot and moving alot in a domestic situation. But yes, it doesn't look like an nb shoe, or any other shoe for that matter. Doesn't matter what you nail on, it ain't natural. We just have to amke it work.

[Cyber Farrier]

My, oh my.... When will ya'll learn to respect your difference of opinions and techniques, and be able to discuss them without it degenerating to such a low level. It's plain that some very well respected people differ in their opinion of the efficacy of NB style shoeing. Fine and dandy. On the other hand it's also obvious that a relatively few of the people posting in this thread don't have the slightest idea what they're talking about. They're simply shooting off their mouths without any consideration of what they're saying and how they're saying it. I shake my head when I read their junk. It's amusing for a while, but eventually it turns into a death spiral.

Enough. Everyone out of the pool. Find another topic to discuss.

Baron