Navicular changes on x-rays on pre-purchase

[lstevenson]

Hi all,

I recently did a pre-purchase exam on a 5 yo horse to be used for lower to mid level eventing. And the horse traveled sound except for 1/5 lameness on a tight circle on hard ground. Flexion tests were all great.

Until seeing the x-rays, the vet loved the horse. But on x-rays the horse showed to be high on his outside wall on the LF, with one very large, two large, and four small Synovial Fossca in the navicular bone. With cystic SF evident on the lateral view.

On the RF he has a flaring lateral wall. Sclerosis palmar navicular and medullary bone, with remodeling distal navicular. Two moderate and four small SF.

The vet was very concerned, and said he would be a considerable risk.

But I REALLY like this horse, and he has been competing sound. And the owner is willing to drop the price considerably for me because of our findings.

So:

Has anyone here had any experience with horses that have considerable changes on navicular x-rays that are currently sound. If so, do they remain sound?

Can I assume that the laterally unbalanced shoeing has caused the changes, and that if I get that fixed, the changes will stop progressing? This horse has slightly long toes, but has plenty (maybe even too much) heels.

I guess I am crazy since I am still considering this horse. But if anyone has any input or advice for me I would greatly appreciate it. :)

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Of course you will make your decision but IMO its absolutely stark staring bonkers to even give more than a passing thought to purchasing a horse to event that is unsound AND showing navicular changes at such a young age.

Call me cynical but I absolutely refuse to believe that the horse is currently competing sound if its actually showing visible lameness trotting on hard surfaces on tight circles.

Do you have veterinary inspections eventing over there? If so how is it passing those? Or is it currently just competing at lower (local) levels?

Eventing is the true test of the equine and to event successfully the horse has to be maintained in supreme fitness. That means it has to be sound so you can train it and keep it in peak condition. A horse that is actually showing lameness on circles and because of navicular bone changes is NEVER and I mean NEVER going to be able to manage the rigours and challenges tight turns and jumping at speed that is absolutely required for both the x-country and show jumping phases.

You may well have a glimmer of optimism with experience of recovery and improvement with therapeutic farriery, but to my mind, as a trainer and owner of eventers, I agree with your vet. Its a HUGE risk and one that I personally wouldn't want to take for a prospective eventer. And particularly if this is going to be your one and only eventing prospect. You could spend a lot of time with him not doing what you want him for.

[lstevenson]

Well, he is absolutely sound in all situations [I]except[I] for when on a tight circle on hard ground, where he is only slightly off. A 1/5 is barely noticable.

I have evented through the Advanced *** level myself, and I can tell you that many horses that pass the "jog", would be slightly lame on a tight circle on hard ground. Note- jog on concrete on straight line- sound. 10 meter circle on sand - sound. But the small circle on concrete test- very few horses that are seriously eventing would be 100% on that. Too much torque on their feet.

And to others, I am thinking that his being slightly off on the tight circle on hard ground to the left could be due to him being high on the outside wall on the LF. I would imagine that most horses that are in hard work with this shoeing imbalance would show some lameness turning towards the high side on hard ground, am I right?

[Dave Purves]

If the horse was 1/5 on a tight circle, on hard ground. What would he be directly after a low level X-country course? You could probably keep this horse sound for a time, but eventually things will break down. Straightening out the imbalance in his feet will help, but significant changes are present and it will be a battle to keep him sound over the long haul. So if you only expect to use him for a year or two and you have a great lameness/sub-clinical lameness farrier and vet to help you along I would pass. Not to mention that if you do only want the horse for a short time, you'll probably have a hard time re-selling the horse due to the PPE.

jmo
Dave

[Ronald Aalders]

You could probably keep this horse sound for a time, but eventually things will break down.
jmo
Dave


There is a famous economist called John Maynard Keynes. When asked about the long term effects of certain economical programs he'd say: "In the long run, we're all dead".


Ronald Aalders

[Equi-Pro]

I'd have to agree with the everyone else. I'd personally pass on the horse. To many horses out there to settle on this one, even if this one is awesome. Fact of the matter is, based on what you've said, down the road your probably going to be facing more and more issues and keeping him/her sound could be a problem. Probably not what you want to hear, good luck

Justin

[lstevenson]

OK, since this horse is sound and I am going to be able to get him at a really good price because of the x-rays, I think I am going to go ahead and buy him.

Maybe I should start a new thread for this, but now my question is about how to rebalance his feet.

He is high on the outside wall on the LF, showing compression on P1/P2 and P2/P3. He has a flaring lateral wall on the RF. His heels are quite high, should they be lowered somewhat?

After I get the horse here, I should be able to post some pictures.

Thanks for your help! :)

[Equi-Pro]

Ok, first off pictures say a thousand words so yes please get some.

As far as the horse being high inside, yes you want the horse balanced.

Cutting off the heels, no. In a navicular case you typically want to bring them up, releases the tendon on the Nav.

Finally, and please don't take this as me being nasty or anything un-positive. Why would you purchase a horse when everyone envolved it sounds like has said to pass. I only ask because my mother-in-law did the same thing and now she's paying for it. Why waist the money for the vet check in the first place. Again, not being nasty, I just truly don't understand.

Justin

[calshoer]

Cutting off the heels, no. In a navicular case you typically want to bring them up, releases the tendon on the Nav. Justin, treating navicular disease effectively for the long term involves more than just relieving tension on the flexor tendon. Heels that are mismanagedare a very commkon culprit in this scenario.
If the heels are overgrown or underrun, they MUST be cut down to move their base more rearward and to remove all the forward running horn that is shoving up and forward into the internal tissues.
THEN wedge can be added if necesary to align the bones inside, to relieve tension on the DDFT and impar ligament. Leaving the heels long (or tall) is one of the most common causes of caudal foot painand is the main reason most navicular treatment approaches that leave heels tall only work for a little while, until the heels themselves get more sore.
Patty

[lstevenson]

Finally, and please don't take this as me being nasty or anything un-positive. Why would you purchase a horse when everyone envolved it sounds like has said to pass. I only ask because my mother-in-law did the same thing and now she's paying for it. Why waist the money for the vet check in the first place. Again, not being nasty, I just truly don't understand.

Justin



Well, the horse is SOUND, currently competing in eventing with a great record. He was only slightly off during the prepurchase exam when trotting on tight circles to the left on concrete. And like I said this horse is high on the outside wall on the LF, so we were thinking it could be attributed to that. And actually that's a pretty tough test. Many horses that jog absolutely sound fail that test. The vet who did the prepurchase was not concerned about that, but only about the bad looking navicular x-rays.

And I have heard soooo many stories about horses with bad navicular x-rays that never take a lame step in their lives. That now that they have MRI available, they are finding that "navicular pain" is most often tendon and ligament related, and there seems to be little coorelation between lameness and x-rays alone.

And because of the x-rays, I have been able to talk the seller into cutting the price in half. So, although I am taking a risk, I am getting a really fancy horse at half the price. I figure I could wait and find another horse that I like as much (and I am hard to please) and that passes the vet perfectly, and then THAT horse could die/get injured/ect. You just never know. Every horse is a risk. I am just trying hard to make sure this is an educated one.

[Equi-Pro]

Justin, treating navicular disease effectively for the long term involves more than just relieving tension on the flexor tendon. Heels that are mismanagedare a very commkon culprit in this scenario.
If the heels are overgrown or underrun, they MUST be cut down to move their base more rearward and to remove all the forward running horn that is shoving up and forward into the internal tissues.
THEN wedge can be added if necesary to align the bones inside, to relieve tension on the DDFT and impar ligament. Leaving the heels long (or tall) is one of the most common causes of caudal foot painand is the main reason most navicular treatment approaches that leave heels tall only work for a little while, until the heels themselves get more sore.
Patty

Yes thank you for correcting me (not being sarchastic). I should have gone a little more in depth as to what I meant and I meant as you properly said. There are just so many Nav posts that I get ahead of myself.

As to my comment about why did you purchase the horse anyway. Again didn't mean anything to negative. I truly wish you the best of luck.