Trimming to get P3 even

[Ronald Aalders]

I made a remark on this in a thread about trimming to even out heels (re: heel trimming where one heel is farther back than the other) but I feel this is so essential in trimming and shoeing horses that I want to start this new thread on it. At the same time I can check whether or not I'm doing the right thing here, there's nothing like being judged by a jury of one's peers........

I'm talking about ML balance here. Explaining to bring back breakover is so much easier.

In explaining trimming for ML balance to young shoers the T square method is understandibly used a lot. It's simple and if you follow that method you at least stay out of some of the trouble you could run into if you'ld just cut away hoof without any second thought. Trimming would end up being a lottery that way.

When shoers get beyond the 101 level, it's time to let them know that the T square has a lot of draw backs, like it does not take into account all kind of deviations of the leg. So about that the time they wore out the T square it's about time to throw it away.

So you come to the next step learning shoers how to trim for ML balance, like trying to trim heels equal (and back to the widest part of the frog) and get the coronary band even with the floor. That works very good and helps reduce sheared heels to a minimum.

Mostly when I get to that stage shoers are out on their own and hopefully learn more by correcting their own work.

I really like the even sole trim Patty proposes. Obviously it's a very good way to get P3 even with the floor. But usually we're working without X rays, so we have to guestimate how thick a sole is. On a well shaped foot this can be done, on a distorted foot, big time pushed up heels and stuff you'll find it a lot harder to guestimate even sole depth.

I'm interested in all tricks that can help me establish sole depth better. AND how to explain that to others! And pushing the sole to feel how thick it is may work for me but not for someone trying to learn...... I need "know" tricks, not "feel" tricks.............

Thank you all, as always.........



Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

About this trimming deal guys. Would it not be just that much easier on shoers starting out to tell them to throw away the T square and trim heels back to the widest part of the frog and make sure the heels are of even height?
Trimming to equal sole depth is very nice but on a foot that really needs rebalancing it's not always easy to determine when the sole is equally thick everywhere. It's only easy with feet that are pretty ok......


So true, most imbalances are not only in the horn but also within the structures of the foot. It could take 3-5 shoeing just to bring the feet/structures into balance/equilibrium. Blanket trimming protocals can get one into trouble and leave the horse in more pain/trauma than when it was presented.

"Your not making a master piece, you are shoeing this horse to keep it sound for 4-5 weeks and starting all over again"- Seamus Brady

[cynthia-jay]

Just a simple suggestion but the use of a hoof gage is an invaluable tool for determining hoof balance (sole plane)

I've noticed they read different in degrees as to the types and several are available

as always
Jay

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=cynthia-jay]

>Just a simple suggestion but the use of a hoof gage is an invaluable tool for determining hoof balance (sole plane)

How so?

I've noticed they read different in degrees as to the types and several are available

It has been my experience that hoof guages are accurate +/- 1 degree and after they have been knocked around in the truck for a while, unless you check them against a known angle , they can vary even more. Over the years I've collected a few and none of them read the same on any given hoof. Further, they only tell you A/P angles.

Rick

[J.H. shoeing]

Amen, Jaye Perry.

Ronald

Explaining ML balance is difficult, to say the least. But I know that you "read" a foot before you trim. And that is what is hard to teach and hard to learn for new shoers. I work on it everyday, striving to get every foot spot on. I would try to explain what I am talking about in "reading" the foot. But I don't think I would be able to do it without confusing someone without actual feet/horses to work on. The bad thing is that what works on one horse may not work on another because of confirmation/deformity/injury. It would be easier to explain if all we dealt with was the foot, but bring in the limb and body and you get college algebra.

I know what you are trying to get and where you are trying to go. I will be waiting eagerly for the same information.

Jeff

[cynthia-jay]

Rick

I have several different types of gages and they read different: +/-

They are also usefull for M/L imbalance or balance as well as A/P

I have a magnicifiant eye for balance and that includes the whole horse

Once you know what you are looking for as stated : "to read the whole hoof"

It is a usefull tool in judging balance/imbalance and also for determining angles

We definatelty differ in agreements here
best

a always
Jay

[Dave Purves]

I have three hoof gauges in my truck, and depending on who wants a "certain" angle, I pull them out and ask which one they would like me to use. Hoof gauges are for reference only, and that is only to assure you that the two feet are the same or close. If you know you want one foot 2 degrees higher than the other you can do that. If you want them the same you can do that also. But as far as true dorsal angle you would have to have your gauge calibrated. I worked in the tool and die business for quite awhile and every 3 weeks the measuring tools get calibrated. I have a hoof gauge that's 8 years old and never been calibrated except every know and then on my own at home and that is still a best guess within a couple of degrees. As far as balance I personally have to watch the horse move. If there is a lot of limb or capsular deviation then I may have to trim a little and watch the horse move again. Looking at the hoof capsule can tell you alot, same with the sole. But the only way you're going to know what to do for the horse is to watch the horse. Flare shows up for many reasons, uneven loading, delayed breakover, or too much ease of breakover, sub-clinical lameness in another limb or out right lameness. These same things can cause sheered heels, twisted hoof capsules and all types of distortion. Without seeing the horse move I have a hard time beleiving that we can do the best for the horse without leaving something out. We can come close, in most cases, but sometimes close isn't close enough.
Dave Purves CF :)

[calshoer]

Ronald,
Of course without cleaning the loose built up material off a sole it would be hard to tell how thick it is (with the loose material included).
However it is not hard at all to find the live sole plane and follow it to trim without Xrays.
For purposes of using the live sole for the guide to medial lateral balancing, the live sole is defined as the layer that is waxy in appearence, cleaned of flaky or chalky material. No more , no less. In wet environments like the UK or washington state all it usually takes is a wire brush to find it,here in e deseert in Colorado it takes some more serious s****ing and paring of the loose stuff.
For purpose of internally balancing the foot medial laterally there is no need to know (except treating founder of course) how thick the live waxy layer is, because it has proven to be uniformly thick (or thin) across the coffin bone. The toe corners will have the same amount of live sole under them, and the wings will have the same amount under them.
So balancing the coffin bone medial laterally using the sole plane is as simple as exfoliating the loose material until the waxy layer is exposed but not paring into it. Then trimming the hoof wall so there is equal depth from the ground surface of the wall at the widest part of the foot down into the sole, and an equal amount of live sole in the toe corners 'flattened' with the rasp when you rasp the wall of the toe to the level of the sole .(as you rasp the wide area becomes wider. So you just flatten about 1/4" wide strip in each toe . Gene demopnstrates this in his tapes. If you trim following the live sole without invading it, P3 will be pretty darn level medial laterally. Easy as pie and no Xrays needed. The consistancy of sole thickness medial laterally has been proven time and again with Xrays on live horses as well as from Mike Savoldi's many thousands of dissections.
As to the other suggestion of guages, the simply do not work well because the coffin bone may not be where you really think it is if there is any bit of hoof distortion. As well, all too often the coffin bone angle is NOT the same as the hoofwall angle. But the structures of the sole do not lie. They clearly tell where the bone actually is, once you learn to see it. And as to students, I have worked with newly graduated farrier students who were taught both ways, with Tsquares first, and those who learned to go to the sole first .
I will guarantee the stuents who are taught to go to the sole right off the bat can balance a foot better than the others and are not nearly so confused by wry feet or sheared heels. They come out of school light years ahead.
Patty

[Andrew Grimm]

Hi,
I am glad to find a topic in discussion that has for a while been very mind boggling to me (Balance, in paticular ML balance).
I still consider myself in the 101 category. I find myself constatly thinking about ML balance and what is the right and correct way to achieve it. I have run across so many theories like flat landing slightly heel first, trim to side the hoof points, trim the flared side of the hoof, trim by looking at the hairline, the T-square method, trimming to uniform sole thickness, etc.
I wish someone would explain the theories behind these theories and what makes them right or wrong. In your opinion.
It seems to me like its important for the boney column and for P3 to be as level and even as possible on flat and level ground. It also seems to me that the most trauma placed on the boney column is when the horse is in total weight bearing on that paticular leg. However, how often is a horse working on completly flat and level footing?????????
Can somebody please help me with my thoughts? Thank you.

[Mike Ferrara]

I want to address a couple of things here. First the sheared heels that Ron mentioned when he said... So you come to the next step learning shoers how to trim for ML balance, like trying to trim heels equal (and back to the widest part of the frog) and get the coronary band even with the floor. That works very good and helps reduce sheared heels to a minimum.

I'd like to reference the article by Dr. O'Grady on his site equipodiatry.com. concerning sheared heels. He talks about trying to cause heels to shear in a number of horses and not being able to do it. That goes along with what I've come to believe over the years and that is that it is NOT bad trimming causing the sheared heels. I could write at length explaining why I believe that but I'll spare you that for now.

I think that using the sole plane as a guide makes sense but I don't think the explainations I've heard tell the whole story.

First of all I see some 4 inch+ feet (long time without any care) with enough retained sole to make finding the sole plane difficult. Usually I can find the junction but not always. And then there are of course the longfooted horses where we hopefully won't see the sole plane directly. In general, I don't think this is an immediate problem in getting ML balance though it would be if you felt that you needed to see it. In most cases I don't think I need to but I could see where it would make it very difficult to teach this as a primary indication of balance unless you assume that the student wiol never work on long footed horses.

My second concern...and keep in mind that I don't usually get to see radiographs of the horses I'm shoeing but...Lets go with the idea that trimming to the sole plane results in even sole thickness. Does that really result in evenly loaded joints all the way up the leg? I'll bet it does on a fairly streight horse but I see some funny looking horses. If the leg isn't perpendicular to the ground but P3 is parellel (M/L wise) because we trimmed to the sole plane, do we really have even joint spacing/loading? On the other hand, is it possible that the foot grows and compensates for a crooked leg such that we can't count on a sole plane that yields an even sole thickness? In either case you can't have M/L ground level P3 and a leg that isn't normal to the ground without having something out of wack someplace.

In either case I'm not questioning the use of the sole plane but I am saying that you can't have both...an M/L ground level P3 and a streight/normally loaded everything else unless it was all streight to begin with. A good example that I see often might be a horse who is toed-out, base narrow behind that grows high and curls under medial and flares lateral. I'll also note that whether you trim to the sole lane or level by eye/t-square the foot will grow right back to where it was and that when t-square level and on the ground you'll have a hair line that is noticeable NOT ground parellel. I admit that I don't know where the deviation(s) are in this leg. Is it in a joint or do we actually have a non-simetrical P3...or something?

another good illustration is one specific case where I have a horse with one front foot severely toed in but also bent medially from the fetlock down. I don't know if that's a clear description but it's rotated and bent. In this case you can clearly see where the "bend" is. The foot grows high on the medial and also flares on the medial. Flare may not be the right term here but hopefully you get the idea. Again, the same questions. Does trimming to the sole plane really yield and M/L parellel P3 with an even sole thickness? Is P3 semetrical? Again, I don't see how you could have a level P3 on that crooked leg without something else being out of wack someplace. Radiographs might make the whole thing clear but it's unlikely that I'll see any unless I buy them myself. BTW, I have this account specifically because I've been able to keep this horse comfortable throughout the shoeing/trimming cycle where most others have failed. How I do that is, of course, a trade secret and I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you. LOL

Streight horses are easy. If you can find one you could use the sole plane, t-square or just sight it and it would all probably work fine.

What would some of you say the significance of the sole plane at the heel is?

[Forgewizard]

"Sole plane". Uh huh, there's a term that offers considerable confusion. Let's use a 'normal" hoof as an example. No problems medially or laterally, anterior or posterior, healthy, no flares and let's say it is a fore hoof. OK? So we have the so called "perfect hoof front of us. Now let's say we are lucky and get to work on a level concrete surface.

Great day so far ain't it?

Now dear old dobbin has been tooling around on his perfect tootsies over fairly firm terrain but not rock hard, and not so much that he has worn off ALL the hoof he has grown in the past 6 weeks. There is a bit of a ridge of wall longer than the sole when we look at the bottom, except for at the toe, the sole has worn flat with the wall. Ok?

Now when dobbin stands on this hoof he has no chips, cracks or flares to deal with (he has really really nice hooves). The ground surface of his hoof touches the concrete from buttress to buttress all around the perimeter. His plump frog touches the concrete too. (See, I said he had a really really nice hoof).

So, this hoof needs a trim. Everyone is going on and on about how the sole plane, or live sole plane will allow P3 to be aligned properly within the hoof capsule.

Here is what I am getting at:
The sole of the hoof is not ON a plane. With the definition of a "plane" being a flat surface. Now the ground surface of the wall would be worn on a "plane". But the sole itself has concavity. This concavity runs anterior to posterior as well as medial to lateral in directions. Similar to what your hand does when you cup it and look at the palm. Gee, The hoof actually resembles an upside down cup doesn't it?

So how do you trim to a non existant plane? I was taught to exfoliate the hoof sole and watch the density of the sole. But I was also taught not to invade the live sole and certainly not to trim until the sole could be depressed with my thumbs (because goodness knows the horse's bearing weight will depress the sole more than my fingers can! And if my fingers CAN depress the sole - then the horse has problems - or I created problems for the horse!)

I am thinking that some people are just labeling a part of the trimming process with different nomenclature. But calling the sole a plane creates an incorrect picture in people's minds.

Now in hooves that aren't as perfect as our dobbin here, there is definitely NOT a flat plane to reference so the farrier needs to fall back on knowledge of internal anatomy and evaluation of external alignment. Of which the hoof to pastern angle is the most obvious. As is viewing the hoof heels as the horse is standing on the hoof.

[calshoer]

Trimming to the "live sole plane" is very specific, very accurate and all it takes is practice to see and feel the difference in the textures of the various layers of sole. For the purposes of THIS particular discussion when Isay " live sole" I am referring to the entire layer of shiny, attached sole.(under the dead chalky or retained stuff)
Now,for you doubters, there have been literally thousands of feet examined by both Mike Savoldi,(uniform sole thickness) as well as a smaller number by and Dr Page and Gene Ovnicek and DrBowker that have clearly shown that the layer of live sole IS indeed even thickness from side to side under the bone. The only rare exceotions being a feet that have modified due to compensating for long term upper limb deformity (ie a severely bent knee).,
It has been PROVEN with these thousands of feet that the two toe corners are the same thickness under the bone, as it is in the two heels, as it is in area on both sides in the widest part of the foot. It may have variations from front to back, but side to side the pairs of sole areas are identical thickness.
SO balancing thr bone media laterally is EASY.If you find and USE the live sole layer as the trimming guide, the bottom of P3 will be level medial-laterally to the ground. No more no less. Simple/
The part that most farriers seem to have difficulty with is learning to clean off all the chalky material accurately without invading the live layer.
I have found consistantly that young student farriers who learn to go to the live sole right of the bat can balance a foot better right out of school than farriers who first learned trying to tried to sight the leg or Tsquare the foot.

Now you may think that it is a problem if the bottom of the foot is not at a right angle to the leg, think again.
Not many horses are built that perfect. The condyles of the distal joints are not always straight.The pastern bones are frequently a little twisted or longer on one side than the other, but the joint spaces will be even and evenly loaded. So the foot may appear square to the limb when it is on the ground but as soon as you pick it up it isn't....NOW what do you do? Gets confusing doesn't it?
If you unbalance the bone to the ground to get it at that right angle to the leg in the air, when it is not supposed to be, heres what hapens.
As soon as the horse bears weight on that foot, that coffin bone will immediately get loaded and try to settle level medial laterally with the ground. Ie :the high side gets pushed down.
And it eventually does get level again , or keeps going in that direction, but in the meantime the joints above it are stressed unevenly with every step and the hoof capsule shears.
If you throw away your levels and guages and learn to find and trust the structures in that foot, it gets REALLY easy after that.
Patty
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

"Sole plane". Uh huh, there's a term that offers considerable confusion. Let's use a 'normal" hoof as an example. No problems medially or laterally, anterior or posterior, healthy, no flares and let's say it is a fore hoof. OK? So we have the so called "perfect hoof front of us. Now let's say we are lucky and get to work on a level concrete surface.

Great day so far ain't it?

Now dear old dobbin has been tooling around on his perfect tootsies over fairly firm terrain but not rock hard, and not so much that he has worn off ALL the hoof he has grown in the past 6 weeks. There is a bit of a ridge of wall longer than the sole when we look at the bottom, except for at the toe, the sole has worn flat with the wall. Ok?

Now when dobbin stands on this hoof he has no chips, cracks or flares to deal with (he has really really nice hooves). The ground surface of his hoof touches the concrete from buttress to buttress all around the perimeter. His plump frog touches the concrete too. (See, I said he had a really really nice hoof).

So, this hoof needs a trim. Everyone is going on and on about how the sole plane, or live sole plane will allow P3 to be aligned properly within the hoof capsule.

Here is what I am getting at:
The sole of the hoof is not ON a plane. With the definition of a "plane" being a flat surface. Now the ground surface of the wall would be worn on a "plane". But the sole itself has concavity. This concavity runs anterior to posterior as well as medial to lateral in directions. Similar to what your hand does when you cup it and look at the palm. Gee, The hoof actually resembles an upside down cup doesn't it?

So how do you trim to a non existant plane? I was taught to exfoliate the hoof sole and watch the density of the sole. But I was also taught not to invade the live sole and certainly not to trim until the sole could be depressed with my thumbs (because goodness knows the horse's bearing weight will depress the sole more than my fingers can! And if my fingers CAN depress the sole - then the horse has problems - or I created problems for the horse!)

I am thinking that some people are just labeling a part of the trimming process with different nomenclature. But calling the sole a plane creates an incorrect picture in people's minds.

Now in hooves that aren't as perfect as our dobbin here, there is definitely NOT a flat plane to reference so the farrier needs to fall back on knowledge of internal anatomy and evaluation of external alignment. Of which the hoof to pastern angle is the most obvious. As is viewing the hoof heels as the horse is standing on the hoof.

Hey Kim I just read this and I agree with you. The sole is not as simple as a flat plane, what newbies need is how to find the landmarks on the sole, what exfoliating sole looks like, what seperation is, retained sole, calloused sole, trim feet that are always subjected to mud and moisture. Trimming feet that are rock hard because they are always on hard dry ground. Trimming feet that are jammed and sheared. How to determine the right time to remove excesses sole and when to leave it. All this takes supervision, learning by watching others and trimming a hundred horses or so.

[Phil Armitage]

So true, most imbalances are not only in the horn but also within the structures of the foot. It could take 3-5 shoeing just to bring the feet/structures into balance/equilibrium. Blanket trimming protocals can get one into trouble and leave the horse in more pain/trauma than when it was presented.

"Your not making a master piece, you are shoeing this horse to keep it sound for 4-5 weeks and starting all over again"- Seamus Brady

Excellent point Jaye, one thing I had to learn is be patient and trust the process. It is a good thing to see the feet change in a good direction and horses do well. It is constant maintenance.