Question on Navicular Diagnosis & Shoeing

[dyoungerman]

Hello!

My horse was just diagnosed with navicular in the left front this week. I don't fully believe the diagnosis yet because everything isn't adding up. Probably denial, but I'm not convinced and I need some professional advice. Of everything I thought could possibly be wrong, navicular didn't cross my radar as a possibility.

My horse is a 9 year-old 15.3hh full-blood Quarter horse. He's at roughly a 3-4 year-old training stage. His job is getting ready for AQHA Hunter under saddle, learning beginning dressage and pleasure driving, working over ground poles, riding through the pastures, etc. He's fit, athletic, muscular, and a little too smart for his own good. When the weather is ok, he's typically turned out with his buddies 10-12 hours a day and stalled the remainder of the time. I generally average 4-5 rides a week, about 1.5-2 hours each.

I've been trying to find a mysterious "something" since this spring that's made him just a little "off." He's never been lame a day in his life, but I know my horse and something just didn't feel right. He's resistant to bending left and tends to lean on my left leg when riding or doing lateral exercises. When we're circling to the right at a trot, he'll tend to lose momentum and drop the left shoulder. When we switch to left bend, he resists bending his head & neck, shortens his stride, speeds up a little, and raises his head a bit. When we canter on the right lead, I tend to lose his hip to the inside. Recently, when we canter on the right lead and move out of a circle onto a straight line, I get 3-4 strides and then a full flying lead change without asking; he also changes when working at liberty and when cantering over ground poles. He also became very crabby about the saddle, girth, and mounting the beginning of this year.

I've started regular chiropractic work & massage therapy, had my saddle fitted, etc., etc. As part of trying to find his mysterious issue, I changed to a very well-respected farrier the end of July. He immediately recommended to take my horse barefoot because his feet were too small for his body size. I took a good 6+ weeks for Norm to adjust, but even I can tell his feet look healthier for it. (He was very tender for the first month, and I got some good advice here on this website.) He has been trimmed every 3 weeks, give or take a few days, since taking him barefoot and the farrier has been very pleased with his progress.

As part of the diagnosis, the vet watched Norm on the longe line, did a flexion test, used a hoof tester (showed tenderness in the left & right front toes, but nothing on the back half of the hoof), took x-rays, and performed a PD nerve block on the left front. The vet expected him to go lame on the right front after the block, but he didn't. Norm did move better and was more relaxed after the nerve block, but it was roughly 20 min. after the anesthesia before Norm trotted again. (I've read that the PD nerve block can also mask pain in other areas of the foot if it's not done just right and evaluated quickly.)

For treatment, the vet injected celestane into the coffin joint and navicular bursa. He also wants egg bar shoes and significant restrictions on activity and the type of ground we can work on. For example, once the ground gets hard and freezes for winter, no turnout, riding, or longeing until the ground softens, just hand-walking in the arena for 3+ months. That's totally unrealistic for this horse because he's already going nuts after 6 days stall rest with daily hand-walking! The farrier doesn't want to use egg bar shoes, but is willing to follow the vet's instructions.

Anyway, I've tried, but I can't attach the 4 radiographs from our vet visit because the files are too big. (I'll try to find a way to post them somewhere online.) We had a devil of a time getting the horse to stand squarely on that darn wooden block, but I hope the x-rays are still useful. As nearly as I can tell with my ruler, all the angles look pretty good and there's no bone rotation but he's still a little thin-soled.

I'd very much appreciate any feedback from the experts here! I'm trying to find the $$ to get a second opinion, but I don't know what questions to ask. Also, in the meantime, what shoeing options do I have for an active horse who doesn't live in a perfect sand arena? I've read that an egg bar shoe on a horse with normal angles shifts weight-bearing to the soft tissues of the foot and can also increase force on the navicular bone, causing more problems in the future.

Help please!

Thank you,
Diana Y. & Norman

PS - Here is a link to the x-rays. I hope it works! http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd2/dyoungerman/XRays%20Nov%202007/

PPS - Here is a link to photos of Norm's front feet. It's 2 weeks after his last trim, and he's due to be trimmed again next week. http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd2/dyoungerman/Hoof%20Photos%20Nov%2014%202007/

[Dances with Hooves]

A vet's shoeing RX does not protect the farrier who "Disagrees with what the Vet suggests" so I make it a point to try and educate vets and find an option we are both comfortable with or refer work to a farrier who is less informed about theraputic options and will ergo not disagree with the vet.

There are better outcomes with treatment packages not involving open egg bars. I'm a fan of leverage testing to determine if the horse should be in a wedge. Frog testing to determine the firmness of frog support to be used (I never omit frog support on a horse with caudal heel pain issues{navicular and its associated precursors}) And mapping the foot to insure adaquate breakover is present.

The farrier might call the vet and perhaps a flat or wedge support solution could be used with the egg bar.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

PHd in "The effect of distilled spirits on nail driving accuracy" from Middleham University, England (based on life experience)

George, :rolleyes: Just spotted this ;):D

[Dances with Hooves]

George, :rolleyes: Just spotted this ;):D

The oral defense at middleham and dissertation writing was easy. The research however took several years. I'm going to continue the field studies pending publication of my new book. Taking a trip to atlanta Feb 2-9 to further my information gathering efforts.

[vthorseshoe]

I'm not qualified to suggest anything on navicular since I rarely work on horses with it.

I do have some questions though.

1. How thick is the horses sole ?
2. Is the horse balanced or does he have long toe /low heels ?
3. Has anyone tried an egg bar show with a pad and packing ?
4. Being a QH and muscled as you state. What size are his hooves ? Large and properly proportioned to carry his torso and yours OR does he have "T" cup sized hooves ?
Darn breeders are still breeding QH with small feet. You wouldn't put volkswagon tires on a tractor trailer. Why are they still breeding "T" cup feet and why are folks still buying such animals ?

It seems that navicular is a much mis-diagnosed problem from all I read on this site.

Just some food for thought.

[Gary Hill]

Bruce, personally I would rethink # 3 on your list? I have never had good results with a horse that had caudle heel pain do that well in eggs with pads?:confused: I have had good results with Alum either open heeled or the KB eggs. Again just my experience over the years with this misdiagnoised problem ?:)

[dyoungerman]

[QUOTE=vthorseshoe;81611]

1. How thick is the horses sole ?
2. Is the horse balanced or does he have long toe /low heels ?
3. Has anyone tried an egg bar show with a pad and packing ?
4. Being a QH and muscled as you state. What size are his hooves ? Large and properly proportioned to carry his torso and yours OR does he have "T" cup sized hooves ?
________________

A bit more information...

#1 - I'm not sure how to measure sole depth and I couldn't find any x-rays of a healthy foot online to compare.

#2 - Norman's feet are balanced, both toe-heel and medial-lateral. That's part of why I'm puzzled because the "typical" navicular horse will have underrun heels. When the new farrier took over the end of July, I don't think he found one foot that was properly medial-laterally balanced. He corrected what he found immediately. I'll try to get some photos to add to the x-ray link.

#4 - Norman is built about halfway between a halter horse and the Thoroughbred-type that's fashionable now. I'd compare him to a foundation-type QH. He's not a tank, but he's not built like a deer either. I found out from the previous owners that this horse has been in steel shoes every day of his life for at least the last 4 1/2 years, shrinking with every reset. By the time they were pulled the end of July, I believe he was in a size 0 on the hind and a size 1 shoe in the front. The farrier said his front shoes looked almost like hind shoes, but I'm not sure what he meant by that. I can tell his hooves have expanded, but I've resisted the urge to compare with his old shoes thus far.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Diana

[dyoungerman]

A vet's shoeing RX does not protect the farrier who "Disagrees with what the Vet suggests" so I make it a point to try and educate vets and find an option we are both comfortable with or refer work to a farrier who is less informed about theraputic options and will ergo not disagree with the vet.

There are better outcomes with treatment packages not involving open egg bars. I'm a fan of leverage testing to determine if the horse should be in a wedge. Frog testing to determine the firmness of frog support to be used (I never omit frog support on a horse with caudal heel pain issues{navicular and its associated precursors}) And mapping the foot to insure adaquate breakover is present.

The farrier might call the vet and perhaps a flat or wedge support solution could be used with the egg bar.
______________________

The farrier and vet have already spoken. Given what he had been trying to accomplish with Norman's feet (expansion, improve health, strengthen, etc.), the farrier was opposed to the egg bar shoes because they are so restrictive and will halt all expansion of the hoof capsule. The vet is dead-set on egg bar shoes and all the exercise restrictions. The farrier is willing to follow the vet's orders, but with reservations. This farrier is very well-recommended in the area and is known for keeping problem horses sound, so I trust his experience.

I will mention your suggestions to him.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Diana

[A1Farrier4U]

Hello!

My horse was just diagnosed with navicular in the left front this week. I don't fully believe the diagnosis yet because everything isn't adding up. Probably denial, but I'm not convinced and I need some professional advice. Of everything I thought could possibly be wrong, navicular didn't cross my radar as a possibility.

My horse is a 9 year-old 15.3hh full-blood Quarter horse. He's at roughly a 3-4 year-old training stage. His job is getting ready for AQHA Hunter under saddle, learning beginning dressage and pleasure driving, working over ground poles, riding through the pastures, etc. He's fit, athletic, muscular, and a little too smart for his own good. When the weather is ok, he's typically turned out with his buddies 10-12 hours a day and stalled the remainder of the time. I generally average 4-5 rides a week, about 1.5-2 hours each.

I've been trying to find a mysterious "something" since this spring that's made him just a little "off." He's never been lame a day in his life, but I know my horse and something just didn't feel right. He's resistant to bending left and tends to lean on my left leg when riding or doing lateral exercises. When we're circling to the right at a trot, he'll tend to lose momentum and drop the left shoulder. When we switch to left bend, he resists bending his head & neck, shortens his stride, speeds up a little, and raises his head a bit. When we canter on the right lead, I tend to lose his hip to the inside. Recently, when we canter on the right lead and move out of a circle onto a straight line, I get 3-4 strides and then a full flying lead change without asking; he also changes when working at liberty and when cantering over ground poles. He also became very crabby about the saddle, girth, and mounting the beginning of this year.

I've started regular chiropractic work & massage therapy, had my saddle fitted, etc., etc. As part of trying to find his mysterious issue, I changed to a very well-respected farrier the end of July. He immediately recommended to take my horse barefoot because his feet were too small for his body size. I took a good 6+ weeks for Norm to adjust, but even I can tell his feet look healthier for it. (He was very tender for the first month, and I got some good advice here on this website.) He has been trimmed every 3 weeks, give or take a few days, since taking him barefoot and the farrier has been very pleased with his progress.

As part of the diagnosis, the vet watched Norm on the longe line, did a flexion test, used a hoof tester (showed tenderness in the left & right front toes, but nothing on the back half of the hoof), took x-rays, and performed a PD nerve block on the left front. The vet expected him to go lame on the right front after the block, but he didn't. Norm did move better and was more relaxed after the nerve block, but it was roughly 20 min. after the anesthesia before Norm trotted again. (I've read that the PD nerve block can also mask pain in other areas of the foot if it's not done just right and evaluated quickly.)

For treatment, the vet injected celestane into the coffin joint and navicular bursa. He also wants egg bar shoes and significant restrictions on activity and the type of ground we can work on. For example, once the ground gets hard and freezes for winter, no turnout, riding, or longeing until the ground softens, just hand-walking in the arena for 3+ months. That's totally unrealistic for this horse because he's already going nuts after 6 days stall rest with daily hand-walking! The farrier doesn't want to use egg bar shoes, but is willing to follow the vet's instructions.

Anyway, I've tried, but I can't attach the 4 radiographs from our vet visit because the files are too big. (I'll try to find a way to post them somewhere online.) We had a devil of a time getting the horse to stand squarely on that darn wooden block, but I hope the x-rays are still useful. As nearly as I can tell with my ruler, all the angles look pretty good and there's no bone rotation but he's still a little thin-soled.

I'd very much appreciate any feedback from the experts here! I'm trying to find the $$ to get a second opinion, but I don't know what questions to ask. Also, in the meantime, what shoeing options do I have for an active horse who doesn't live in a perfect sand arena? I've read that an egg bar shoe on a horse with normal angles shifts weight-bearing to the soft tissues of the foot and can also increase force on the navicular bone, causing more problems in the future.

Help please!

Thank you,
Diana Y. & Norman

PS - Here is a link to the x-rays. I hope it works! http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd2/dyoungerman/

Dear Diana Y. & Norman,
Couple of questions.....first, a comment. The most recent misdiagnosis
to cover up what is going on in your horses feet in a "navicular problem"! Do
you remember when every lame horse was diagnosed with "EPM"? Anyway, I
suggest not using an eggbar, but rather a straight bar shoe with a 3º wedge
pad to lift the heals off the ground and relieve the stress to the "soft tissue"
in the heals and bulb area. It sounds like you certainly have pain in the rear
portion of the hoof.....but giving an opinion over the internet is not right. A good, very experienced farrier (as opposed to a "shoer" who learned watching somebody else.) is what you really need. If you will take a look at
a website www.hoofplates.com, you might be pleasantly surprised by a new
product out there called a Nolan Hoof Plate. Also listed on that website are
farriers & veterinarians who use Nolan Hoof Plates (probably in your area). I
suggest you call one or two of them to get their suggestions about your horse. But, just so you know, that horse's condition is very treatable.

A1Farrier4U

[Appassionato]

Curious, what did the vet say about the D/V x-ray? The "streaks" or as Dave Purves had a good laugh at me for saying, "stringy"?

I'm not a radiologist nor a farrier, but if my hunch is correct then that specific x-ray needs to be really looked into. Was a D/V shot taken of the other front? What about A/P on either?

[calshoer]

Hey "a1farrier4u"........Seeing you tryto sell selling a magic "cure all" product on every single post is getting more than tiring. This isn't the classified ad section.
Patty

[caballus]

What's the difference between that and recommending NB every post? (Or, barefoot! *GRIN*)

--Gwen

[Mike Ferrara]

What's the difference between that and recommending NB every post? (Or, barefoot! *GRIN*)

--Gwen

I think it's the difference between recommending a method or protocol and a product.

[caballus]

OK. Got it.

[brian robertson]

What the...Patricia, are nBS shoes/edss free now? Marketing/dogma; it's all the same.Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Maybe Patricia is envious because A1farrier has a better $ per post deal with Nolan than she doesn't have with Gene.

[dyoungerman]

Curious, what did the vet say about the D/V x-ray? The "streaks" or as Dave Purves had a good laugh at me for saying, "stringy"?

I'm not a radiologist nor a farrier, but if my hunch is correct then that specific x-ray needs to be really looked into. Was a D/V shot taken of the other front? What about A/P on either?

I don't understand. What are D/V and A/P??? What "streaks" are you seeing and on which x-ray?

The vet took 4 x-rays, 3 of them of the left front. I spent some time comparing the medial-lateral shots to x-rays I found online, but I wasn't able to find any good comparisons for the other two shots. And I really don't understand what I'm looking for.

Thanks!

[caballus]

Looking at the skyline view it looks as if the lateral heel might be a bit longer than the medial (the heelbulb seems to be more developed/pointer) so the hoof is imbalanced and I may be wrong but in the medial it looks as if there might be an abscess in the back of the frog? Someone correct me if I'm wrong in seeing that blackened, thick area in that area?

BTW D/V means dorsal/ventral and A/P means anterior/posterior.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

Difference between my posts and those by A1farrier4U.....I don't promote a product . I instruct in the correct application of a PROTOCOL that may or may not use a related product in which I have no vested interest.
On the other hand, A1farier4u, who BTW IS the owner of his product, has yet to offer any hoof preperation, shoe fitting or hoof balancing advice on these boards in regards to advice. Nuff said about that .

In *this* case, the problem is probably either hoof balance or hoof capsule heel form and function, or likely both. It appears that maybe the hoof is out of balance medial laterally. Did the vet take an AP view to assess that? It is vitally important for comfort of the coffin joint, navicular and related connective structures. .
If the horse is usually shod, where is the breakover relative to the coffin bone?
What is the conformation/shape of the HEELS of the foot,including the bars and the position of the heel buttresses relative to the back of the frog? ALL of that can cause the "navicular:"symptoms listed.
Pictures of the the foot itself including good side and sole views would be vey helpful as well as an AP radiopraph.
Patty

[dyoungerman]

Thanks for everyone's comments so far! I hope to get digital photos tomorrow to provide further information.

Regarding medial-lateral balance, it could just be a function of the angle of the x-rays. We had a terrible time trying to get my horse to stand still and square on the little wooden block for his x-rays. I know he wasn't standing perfectly straight and level for all the shots. The farrier is due back the end of this week or beginning of next, so I'll have him re-check angles and balance.

Does anyone have experience with horse boots? I've started looking at brands such as Boa, Cavallo, and Old Mac as a possible solution to the issue of keeping Norman stall-bound when the ground is hard. I want a solution that will allow him to at least be turned out and hopefully exercised. If we can keep him barefoot and treat the problem, so much the better.

The vet I'm trying to find a way to get to for a second opinion (@ Rood & Riddle) said I could use Soft Ride boots and keep Norm barefoot until he can fit us into his schedule late next month, but didn't indicate that they would allow me to turn Norm out or exercise him. They look to be a very good therapeutic option, but not sturdy enough to handle much activity.

Thanks!
DYoungerman

[caballus]

Regarding medial-lateral balance, it could just be a function of the angle of the x-rays. Nope ... take a closer look. The heel bulbs are not equal in size no matter at what angle one looks. ;)

--Gwen

[dyoungerman]

Hello again!

Here is a link to photos of Norm's front feet. Please pardon the amateur photography... I tried not to get funny camera angles, but I'm not sure if the photos show what everyone needs to see. It's been two weeks since his last trim and the farrier is due again next week. http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd2/dyoungerman/Hoof%20Photos%20Nov%2014%202007/

If it's helpful, hoof measurements are as follows:
Left Front - 4.5" wide, 4 7/8-5" long from toe to back of heel buttress
Right Front - 4.5" wide, 5 1/8-5 1/4" long from toe to back of heel buttress
(It's tough to get a good length measurement since the toes are rolled.)

Please help me understand what I'm looking for! :)

Thank you,
Diana

[Dances with Hooves]

Does anyone have experience with horse boots? I've started looking at brands such as Boa, Cavallo, and Old Mac as a possible solution to the issue of keeping Norman stall-bound when the ground is hard. I want a solution that will allow him to at least be turned out and hopefully exercised.

My issue with boots is that mechanics involving easing anterior breakover and medial and lateral breakover are impossible without grinding away too much boot and the boot failing. Inserting a wedge pad (many horses with caudal foot pain "navicular syndrome" enjoy a wedge) into the boot comprimises the fit of the boot which is designed to "cup" the heel bulbs.

My solution when I wish to use a boot for theraputic purposes has been to attach a flat or wedge double nail pad to the boot and then grind in the desired biomechanics.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc293/georgespear/NBPLRlateral.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc293/georgespear/NBPLReasysolar.jpg

[WashingtonBay]

I'm a "Navicular" horse owner, not a farrier, so I'll leave the shoeing options to them, but from a horse management perspective, has the vet prescribed any medication or pain relief for the horse?

My horse was put on Isoxuprine, and is still on that, as well as a round of Bute for a couple of weeks (and as needed later). Exercise was never limited, he was never put on stall rest. In fact, movement was encouraged and it was recommended he be stalled only as absolutely necessary. I have him at pasture 24/7 now with free access to shelter but never closed in. I've never seen anything on any site that recommends stall rest for Navicular, correct shoeing and movement, yes.

Anyway, that's what struck me as odd.

[dyoungerman]

My issue with boots is that mechanics involving easing anterior breakover and medial and lateral breakover are impossible without grinding away too much boot and the boot failing. Inserting a wedge pad (many horses with caudal foot pain "navicular syndrome" enjoy a wedge) into the boot comprimises the fit of the boot which is designed to "cup" the heel bulbs.

My solution when I wish to use a boot for theraputic purposes has been to attach a flat or wedge double nail pad to the boot and then grind in the desired biomechanics.

George,
Great idea! I was wondering about breakover since the farrier mentioned possibly taking Norm's toes back further to speed breakover.

Would the new kits of insert pads available for EasyBoots or Delta Hoof Boots help with what you're describing? I think the EasyBoot pads come with interchangeable frog & sole pieces depending on the relative thicknesses and support you need. Delta Hoof Boots pads probably have more wedge options since they're from a farrier specialty shop.

Thanks!

[dyoungerman]

I'm a "Navicular" horse owner, not a farrier, so I'll leave the shoeing options to them, but from a horse management perspective, has the vet prescribed any medication or pain relief for the horse?

My horse was put on Isoxuprine, and is still on that, as well as a round of Bute for a couple of weeks (and as needed later). Exercise was never limited, he was never put on stall rest. In fact, movement was encouraged and it was recommended he be stalled only as absolutely necessary. I have him at pasture 24/7 now with free access to shelter but never closed in. I've never seen anything on any site that recommends stall rest for Navicular, correct shoeing and movement, yes.

Anyway, that's what struck me as odd.

I'm also puzzled by the vet's instructions for my horse because they're very different from normal treatments for navicular. Exactly opposite on some points, in fact. This is part of why I'm not entirely sure I believe the diagnosis. I don't doubt now there's something going on with the foot, but all the pieces aren't adding up.

The vet has Norm on 2g bute/day for 2 weeks while he's stalled, but there was no mention of Isoxuprine or continuing bute. He also wants egg bar shoes, but I'm holding off on those because the vet I want to see for a second opinion wants the horse barefoot in the meantime.

It's a puzzle!

[WashingtonBay]

I also wonder about the advice to not turn him out at all when the ground is frozen. There's nothing about Navicular that should make a horse sensitive to hard surfaces... pounding work, maybe, but not turnout on hard ground. Lots of walking is good for a navicular horse, better for overall circulation. In my experience my horse has not been more sensitive on hard surfaces, frozen surfaces, or even rocks than any other sound horse. If yours is... then pads would be something to consider.

It almost sounds to me like this vet is treating your horse like a laminitis case, not a navicular case.

As for shoes... I dunno. The shoeing should be correct, with good breakover assistance, that's what I've managed to learn in the time I've been working very hard to keep Bay sound. I don't think you get that in boots. I think boots help sensitive sole horses, not necessarily heel pain horses. Unless they're fitted with the gadgets in the pics above, the breakover in a pad would be ~forward~ of what you would get with a shoe. (on edit: Plus.. if he wears boots all day in the wet, his feet will look like shriveled prunes) What yours needs I would imagine depends on the foot. My Bay was in leather pads and keg shoes (or eventers) for the first few years... I've made a fairly recent switch to a NB farrier, who is now trying him in NB shoes without pads... and he's going great. I've noticed no difference on any surface I've found on trail.

Good luck to you.

[Joey Aczon]

I also wonder about the advice to not turn him out at all when the ground is frozen. There's nothing about Navicular that should make a horse sensitive to hard surfaces... pounding work, maybe, but not turnout on hard ground.

Good luck to you.

I'm just guessing here, but I'd imagine that the no turnout on frozen ground theory is due to palmer heel pain. Hard frozen ground is alot more uncompromising than packed gravel and other uneven surfaces. So if the "injured/painful" frog were to have pressure on it from an unyeilding frozen high spot, it would be worse than just loose gravel or what have you.

[dyoungerman]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I'm so happy to report that we've finally figured out the problem with my horse's feet... and the vet was wrong! He had the correct leg, but the wrong problem. The issues he saw with the navicular bone are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

I was recommended to a founder & navicular specialist, and after studying the x-rays and photos, he showed me how years of incorrect shoeing and improper balance (under previous owners and farrier) have caused my horse's bones and tissues to change and age prematurely. My horse's body started calcifying soft tissues in defense against discomfort and imbalance. I'd compare the effect loosely to how an oyster makes a pearl. Something irritates the oyster so it coats the irritation to compensate and make it less painful.

The great news is that much of the damage can be reversed! In the coming months, the specialist and my farrier are going to work to re-shape and rebalance my horse's feet so his body can fix the damage. Also, instead of being stuck in a stall all winter, my horse is going to enjoy plenty of turnout and exercise with properly modified hoof boots.

I'm hoping that by this time next year Norman will be sound and happy and starting to perform up to his potential!

Thank you to everyone for helping me understand my horse's situation!

DYoungerman

[Appassionato]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I'm so happy to report that we've finally figured out the problem with my horse's feet... and the vet was wrong! He had the correct leg, but the wrong problem. The issues he saw with the navicular bone are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

I was recommended to a founder & navicular specialist, and after studying the x-rays and photos, he showed me how years of incorrect shoeing and improper balance (under previous owners and farrier) have caused my horse's bones and tissues to change and age prematurely. My horse's body started calcifying soft tissues in defense against discomfort and imbalance. I'd compare the effect loosely to how an oyster makes a pearl. Something irritates the oyster so it coats the irritation to compensate and make it less painful.

The great news is that much of the damage can be reversed! In the coming months, the specialist and my farrier are going to work to re-shape and rebalance my horse's feet so his body can fix the damage. Also, instead of being stuck in a stall all winter, my horse is going to enjoy plenty of turnout and exercise with properly modified hoof boots.

I'm hoping that by this time next year Norman will be sound and happy and starting to perform up to his potential!

Thank you to everyone for helping me understand my horse's situation!

DYoungerman

Wonderful news!!! :D

Be SURE to get x-rays in the future as well so your farrier and the specialist can monitor progress along the way. I assure you it's worth the expense and trouble to get them. ;)

[tbloomer]

I was recommended to a founder & navicular specialist, and after studying the x-rays and photos, he showed me how years of incorrect shoeing and improper balance (under previous owners and farrier) have caused my horse's bones and tissues to change and age prematurely. My horse's body started calcifying soft tissues in defense against discomfort and imbalance.
I would love to see the calcification on the xrays now, and then later when the results predicted by the specialist are proven in yet another set of radiographs. :rolleyes:

[Redd Mcintyre]

I'm a fan of leverage testing to determine if the horse should be in a wedge. Frog testing to determine the firmness of frog support to be used
George would you please explain the leverage test and the frog test.
Thanks

[calshoer]

George would you please explain the leverage test and the frog test.
Thanks I will explain it since we use it in level 4 (therapeutic) NB shoeing. What is is basically is experimenting with raising various parts of the horses foot, then observing his comfort level. This is done by picking up the non lame(or less lame)foot first, to see how willing the horse is to stand on the lame foot. It gives you a baseline. Then you take a something to place as a wedge under the lame foot. Usually something about a half inch thick works well, like a 1 1/2" wide strip cut from across the back of a thick wedge pad.
You place your wedge under various parts of the lamest foot, such as across the heels, and again pick up the other foot. Carefully observing the horses responses, and comparing his willingness to stand on the foot with your baselne, both good and bad.
This should be done with both feet since sometimes you may have different pathologies or responses in the pair of feet, necessating slightly different packages. (esopecially if one is a club foot)
We usually try various places including under the toe, both sides, perhaps one heel then the other. If you are observant often the horse will tell you clearly wha he is most happy with, with head drop, licking and chewing and more willingness to stand longer with the bar or handle under the place he wants raised.
If he doesnt like something he will be more resistant to lifting and holding up the other foot.
Frog testing is just that... placing some support material such as the end of your bar of pad under the back of the frog and see if he tolerates it , appears to like it better than without, or not.

This all just gives you some more idea of how you might build your shoeing package to avoid it not working as well as it could, or worse having to come back and change it.

It is especially helpful with deciding in a package the horse will do best in for treating coffin joint or coolateral ligament pain, and ringbone. Takes a lot of the guesswork out of it.
Patty

[clinkercjf]

Patty, Could you possibly edit your last post for spelling? I have no idea what you were trying to transpire.

[Redd Mcintyre]

Thank you Patty,
Lets see if I get it. The strip to use .. is it the same thickness all throughout or is it part of a wedge.

So by lests say
Maybe shown heel soreness with the strip across both heels,by placing the strip on the medial heel and he stands on it for a longer time than on the lateral side he could be asking for just a rim wedge on the medial side.
not sure if you should do one side not the other
am I getting the right idea wrong method?

[Dances with Hooves]

Most of us have just been cutting up a non wedge 1/2" double nail pad.

You always want to test the opposite and repeat each test to confirm. For example. Dobbin has the strip of pad placed under both heels raising him up by 1/2" caudaly . Your assistant picks up the other foot. Dobbin gives it to him easily and when the foot is placed back down does not move his foot off of the strip.

"Ah HA!!!" we say he needs to be wedged. Maybe. but first we need to repeat the process again to confirm that he's OK with the strip there. And all we have proved is that he would tolerate a wedge not that its desireable. Next place the strip under the toe reverse wedging him. If hes not interested at all in giving the assistant the other foot, or gives the foot but wants it back or when the foot is given back to him he gets off the pad as fast as he can he probably has some issue going on that will benefit from a wedge. OTOH if he is as comfortable reverse wedged as he was wedged we have a horse who is either very stoic and our test is invalid or who has no issues and tolerates being levered in various directions.

So one is looking for signs of relief and relaxation with movement in one direction and discomfort in the the opposite direction. And the test should repeat with the same results each time.

This does not replace the need for Xrays its just a means to assess in advance how a horse might react to a package that your diagnostic work leads you to want to use. One might tape on a wedge pad and walk the horse as another means to play what does he like. One can attach the package with 2 nails and not clinch them and then do the assessment or one might use a rail shoe with adjustable rails and experiment with various height rails vs no rails to gather similar information.

Standing the with his frog on the strip or on the handle of your knife or whatever can save you from some real frog pressure disasters.

[ctlngrdr]

Looks like you posted some good pictures. looks like the front right has more heel than the left. How are norms knees ligning up. these thing can cause problems with saddle fitting and shoulders.

[calshoer]

Patty, Could you possibly edit your last post for spelling? I have no idea what you were trying to transpire. Sure, though there were only a few little one or two letter typos, which those who have been here a long time will say is not bad at all compared to my usual late night typing messes.:D Hope it is more readable for you now.
Patty

[calshoer]

So by lests say
Maybe shown heel soreness with the strip across both heels,by placing the strip on the medial heel and he stands on it for a longer time than on the lateral side he could be asking for just a rim wedge on the medial side.)First, veterinarians diagnose, we don't ,so I am not trying to teach farriers to diagnose, but to find what the horse needs in treatment shoeing for optimal comfort and narrow down the possible pathologies that MIGHT be in play in a case.

The results of a response when heel wedging could be from sore heels, but also from high ringbone, something in the coffin joint, or collateral ligaments.
It is very important to also use your hoof testers to see if the heels are indeed sore.

Lets say he is fine in the heels with the hoof testers. Then a response to a wedge on only one side (he likes it) could mean several things, especially if the horse has not yet been *fully diagnosed* by the vet.

It is also VERY important to also use clinical observations, such as trotting him out in a straight line and in in circles both ways.

For example lets say this is the right fore. And He was lame only going to the right, (clockwise). And he likes the medial heel wedged.
So...could be lateral heel pain, (hoof testers!) OR could be something inside the lateral side of the coffin joint, OR could be something in the medial collateral ligament , OR could be the medial side of the susensory ligament of the navicular bone or the medial side of the impar ligament .
We as farriers can't diagnose problems in specific tissues, but we CAN find what the horse wants for optmal comfort , and sort out the *possibile* pathologies using our knowledge of functional anatomy.

Usually a leverage test result like that tells you it is either coffin joint or collateral ligament pain (MRI's have been conforming quite a few of these lately) You might try for example more eased breakover on the lateral side. This would help ease stress in the medial collateal ligament and the lateral side of the coffin joint as the horse rolls over the foot in the corners.

A lot of times I like to use an EDSS with adjustable rails, then I can play with the rails after the package is nailed on the foot, maybe using one side a little bigger than the other, "road testing" the horse as I experiment. Or if it is not a high performance horse or money is a big issue for the owner I might use a Stewart clog and add a rail or a bit of wedge somewhere on the bottom after it is applied. A nice thing about the clog (the plastic ones, not wooden) ) is the horse can wear it in more as he wants it over time.
Rarely would you want to wedge one side of a foot that is in balance before the shoeing. But occasionally a lame horse likes that for a while.
am I getting the right idea wrong method?Your getting it. The trick is interpreting the results into a shoeing package, using your knowlege of functional anatomy and the clinical obsercations of the horse in movement.
Patty

(PS on my soapbox now...this is where more shoeing schools MUST focus a lot more on functional anatomy including ALL the little ligaments inside the distal limb, rather than just having students memorize the names of the parts. OK, I'm done now. :))

[Mike Ferrara]

Unfortunately, most of my experience with "navicular" has been without the benefit of diagnostics like MRI...a radiograph, maybe...a block, maybe...and sometimes just the vet with some hoof testers. Some of these vets are amazing. They can diagnose "navicular" with no tools at all. LOL

I have quite a few horses on my books that have been diagnoses as "navicular" at one time or another. Some are working, I don't do anything special with them and I've never known them to take a bad step. Others are barefoot and one is in an extended straight bar with a wedge pad because that's how the clinic set her up. All I did different is make a pair of shoes that fit and gradually bring the heels back and ease "breakover" a bit...see? I do it too sometimes. LOL

Aside from the lack of detailed diagnosis, what I have found difficult about some of these horses is that they have "good" days and "bad", "good" weeks and bad and so on which sometimes makes it hard to tell if you've made things better or worse. Long term observations seem important but owners don't always do much to help. LOL, I recently became a hero when I "cured" one and that's ok with me but I think what really did the trick is that they got another horse and this one got a break. Rest can do wonders huh?

I think it's going to be quite some time yet before veterinary medicine is going to consistantly give us much to work with...we're not out of the dark ages just yet.

[TX Rider]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I'm so happy to report that we've finally figured out the problem with my horse's feet... and the vet was wrong! He had the correct leg, but the wrong problem. The issues he saw with the navicular bone are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

I was recommended to a founder & navicular specialist, and after studying the x-rays and photos, he showed me how years of incorrect shoeing and improper balance (under previous owners and farrier) have caused my horse's bones and tissues to change and age prematurely. My horse's body started calcifying soft tissues in defense against discomfort and imbalance. I'd compare the effect loosely to how an oyster makes a pearl. Something irritates the oyster so it coats the irritation to compensate and make it less painful.

The great news is that much of the damage can be reversed! In the coming months, the specialist and my farrier are going to work to re-shape and rebalance my horse's feet so his body can fix the damage. Also, instead of being stuck in a stall all winter, my horse is going to enjoy plenty of turnout and exercise with properly modified hoof boots.

I'm hoping that by this time next year Norman will be sound and happy and starting to perform up to his potential!

Thank you to everyone for helping me understand my horse's situation!

DYoungerman

Is this sidebone? ...sharon

[Redd Mcintyre]

Patty,
the seneroes we were disscussing with placing a wegde and then seeing him perform.. are they performed and replaced within in one appointment or are they applied and left on for a few days for a "lets hope for an improvement"?

[calshoer]

For " leverage testing", I was talking about just placing the wedge under the foot , lifting the other foot and seeing how the horse reacts.
In the actual shoeing with wedge rails, we place the rails onto the package,(EDSS, clog, or any other shoe we drilled and tapped for rails ) then walk and trot the horse right then,straight and in circles, observe his responses, maybe change the rails to another size, try him again, and so forth until we get the best level of soundness before he leaves the shop. He certainly may not go off perfect if he came in lame to begin with, but if we get him optimally comfortable, he should begin improving more over time from there, as whatever is wrong begins to heal.
I believe that if the horse shows me the most comfort possible clinically with a therapeutic shoeing, then it probably means I have reduced the stresses inside the foot that are causing the issue to begin with and he can heal the fastest, too.
The nice thing about adjustable wedge rails instead of just using a wedge pad alone underneath the shoe is that if the horse goes home with wedge rails and his healing process dictates some change in wedge is needed before the next shoeing, it is possible to change the rails before the next shoeing with just a power screwdriver.
Patty