Chipped Coffin Bone

[River20640]

Last spring my then 6 yr old gelding chipped the front center edge of his right fore coffin bone. He was slightly off on hard surfaces at the trot and radiographs showed a very small 1/4" chip on the thin forward edge of the coffin bone. Vet said to keep him shod with good toe protection and he should be fine in a few months. Well he's not. He's still moderately tender off and on and particularly so after he's just been shod.

My horses are shod with NB steel shoes on their front feet, St. Croix eventers behind. They are used for endurance and need a decently set back shoe for good breakover. I requested my farrier use the NB as his style of shoeing initially left a long toe that was causing stumbling and delayed breakover. He switched to the NB's and started setting the shoes back for me. But he may be setting the front shoes too far back now for this gelding and he appears to pare out the toe calous and sole too much to me. I've been watching this horse's feet slowly change, they are getting wider and wider, not flared but wider. The toe is being rasped back ever further as the same size shoe is being used. Would setting the shoe back too far cause the foot to widen in compensation? I suspect there isn't sufficient toe in front of the coffin bone to adsorb the shock of hitting the ground. I haven't watched this horse trotted out to see if he's landing toe first and my farrier has never asked me to trot/walk him while he watches his movement.

The NB shoe would appear to offer the best coverage for the toe area. We did try adding shock tamer pads but as he began forging with the increased weight and pulled a shoe almost immediately we dropped that idea. Also figured out the hard way that pour-in pads just worsened the problem by increasing sole pressure. I'd like suggestions for shoeing that will offer enough protection to this toe area to allow healing and any insight into the changes I'm seeing in his feet. Bigger shoes? Set further forward? Other shoe options?

Good farriers are few in my area and not interested in new clients,and this kid is trying hard and very reliable. Would hope to point him towards a refernce source or?

Frustrated in MD

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=River20640]Last spring my then 6 yr old gelding chipped the front center edge of his right fore coffin bone. He was slightly off on hard surfaces at the trot and radiographs showed a very small 1/4" chip on the thin forward edge of the coffin bone.

have anymore radiographs been taken to see if there is a sequestrum in the foot?

>Vet said to keep him shod with good toe protection and he should be fine in a few months. Well he's not. He's still moderately tender off and on and particularly so after he's just been shod.

perhaps too much sole is being removed and not given a chance to regenerate. One thing a new radiograph will tell you is how much sole depth your horse has. Ideally he should have at least 18mm.

My horses are shod with NB steel shoes on their front feet, St. Croix eventers behind. They are used for endurance and need a decently set back shoe for good breakover. I requested my farrier use the NB as his style of shoeing initially left a long toe that was causing stumbling and delayed breakover.

No matter what kind of shoe he uses, if the trim is incorrect, the shoe will not work as it is supposed to.

> He switched to the NB's and started setting the shoes back for me. But he may be setting the front shoes too far back now for this gelding and he appears to pare out the toe calous and sole too much to me.

Using Nb shoes and not trimming the foot correctly is going to be an exercise in futility. I suggest that at a minimum you/he go to www.hopeforsoundness, read, download and print out the trimming/shoeing tutorial and implement it. Better yet, get the videos.

> I've been watching this horse's feet slowly change, they are getting wider and wider, not flared but wider. The toe is being rasped back ever further as the same size shoe is being used.

The NBS protocol does not call for rasping the toe back per se. Removing flare, and ramping the toe up out of the way are what is indicated. Again, it appears he does not understand the protocol, and before implementing it, he should.

>Would setting the shoe back too far cause the foot to widen in compensation? I suspect there isn't sufficient toe in front of the coffin bone to adsorb the shock of hitting the ground. I haven't watched this horse trotted out to see if he's landing toe first and my farrier has never asked me to trot/walk him while he watches his movement.

Perhaps now would be a good time to start. And videotape it if you can. that way you will have a 'baseline' reference point.

>The NB shoe would appear to offer the best coverage for the toe area. We did try adding shock tamer pads but as he began forging with the increased weight and pulled a shoe almost immediately we dropped that idea.

The Shocktamer pad is not necessarily the one to use. And, that addition should not have caused the horse to forge if everything else was done correctly.

>Also figured out the hard way that pour-in pads just worsened the problem by increasing sole pressure. I'd like suggestions for shoeing that will offer enough protection to this toe area to allow healing and any insight into the changes I'm seeing in his feet. Bigger shoes? Set further forward? Other shoe options?

We need to see some pictures and also, if possible, the radiographs. That said, it appears that the trim has to be adjusted, more sole conserved and the shoe applied correctly. It may well be that the initial problem has resolved and what you now have is secondary(now primary) inflammation of the sole due to incorrect trimming and/or shoe application.

>Good farriers are few in my area and not interested in new clients,and this kid is trying hard and very reliable. Would hope to point him towards a refernce source or?

In addition to the web site, the folks at EDSS/NBS are really friendly and would willingly talk to your farrier to help him better understand the protocol.

Rick

[River20640]

I know the trimming has to be correct or the shoe applied doesn't mean a thing. I've been reading up on "natural balance" trimming at Hopeforsoundness but it's my farrier that needs to learn. Well, my gelding just lost the shoe on that foot last night so I'm setting up an appt to take him in again for radiographs before he is reshod. The farrier is due out in two days anyway.

I know this young man needs to learn more more about correct trimming but how the $&(%#% does a horse owner tell their farrier something like that. And why should he believe me? Sounds like a recipe for loosing a farrier.

Yes, when first radiographed the vet noted that my horse had excellent depth of sole so it will be of interest to see a comparison of new to old radiographs. And possibly there is an underlying problem that is no fault of the farrier. I'll ask for copies of the radiographs and I'm going to break out the digital camera and start taking pictures.

By the way, I have noted on short backed horses that forging does often start if you make the front feet heavier while the hind feet remain lighter. It slows the fronts down and they just don't get out of the way of the hind feet fast enough. I have one mare that is short backed and long legged. With this farrier in particular she has chronic forging problems. Time for a change.

River20640

[Red Amor]

Good morning Rick and River

River you sound like a very decent person and you genuenly seem to like the KID

I wonder how available , education for him in your area is and if he is willing to chase it up
how financial is he , does he have a fulltime bisuness can he afford education , time money
can or would he be willing to seek out better Farriers to travel and work like a dog and shout the beer :) just to learn more
Would you as a careing person maybe buy the tapes and lend them to him or show him and togeather discuss and learn more about whats needed

Be honest with the Kid , NO THE YOUNG MAN treat him as such tell him first that you like and appreaciate him and would like to retain his services and offer him the vidoes and litriture , offer his the chance
Do this only if your willing to go the distance with this young man and you may end up with a good Farrier and a friend for life
if not look him in the eye and tell him why you wish to seek out another more skilled Farrier even if its just to come teach the young man how to go about it
I wish you well, mind how ya go

[Peggy Dolan]

I've read with much interest the struggles that you have faced in trying to mend your horse. In my experience, the NBS is an excellent choice for this type of injury. I never set the shoe behind the white line, but an excellent vet that I work with will stand over my shoulder and chide me to set it back more, and all turns out well. Does your current farrier have any forging skills? It's not hard to create your own version of a NBS, nor to pull clips on a NBS to create a special shoe. I call it a tri-clip, toe and side clips, like creating an immobile cast. As for the forging, slowing down the back end, only a split second, keeps the front and hinds from meeting. I square the hind toes, and using a shoe one size larger than indicated, I extend the shoe straight back from the heels. Depending on the horse's confirmation and temperment, I put a trailer on the lateral side. I find that this creates two desirable conditions: your horse has a larger hind base on which to drive off from, and the shoe can create a slight drag, aiding it the "miss". Doug Butler's Principles of Horseshoeing is available in most larger libraries. There are great pictures and forging instructions for corrective shoeing techniques. Good luck. You didn't mention what part of the country that you live in, but checking the AFA website for local farrier referrals should yield success. Does your vet have any farriers to recommend?

[River20640]

I made the next step, have an appt with the vet to do new radiographs on my geldings foot. I've made an appt with the farrier that she has recommended. He's got a lot more years of experience behind him and was also suggested as a choice to me by the folks over at the edss site. I decided that I just have had a long enough struggle with my horses feet now and I don't want to place blame on anyone for it. I know this young man has lots of business and many happy clients, a young family, a new farm, a house to build and lots of hay to make in the summer. He's got a very full plate!

I find forging to be a very interesting and frustrating facet of owning Arabians. So many in endurance have problems with it. I've noticed that raising the angles of the front feet is a big mistake. It allows the front feet to stay on the ground longer which allows the hinds to reach them. Keeping the angles down without causing problems in the alignment of the pastern/coffin bones causes the fore feet to lift off the ground sooner. Obviously a set-back shoe with improved breakover helps that front foot get off the ground quicker.

It's the hind feet that I'm really curious about. I had my forging mare shod for me once by Stephen O'Grady in VA. He only changed her hind shoes. He extended the heels, straight back, no trailer turn-out. I just can't remember iwhat he did with the toes. I know most peoeple suggest squaring the toes although I've noticed that a barefoot horse left to their own has a fairly pointed hind toe. But what about the set-back? I would think that setting the shoe back would speed up break-over which would worsen forging. Wouldn't you want to leave a somewhat longer toe while keeping the angle of the hoof higher than the fore feet to encourage the foot to stay on the ground longer?

Currently both my horses are forging, and their back feet are looking way too small and the shoes set back too far. Making the foot smaller by incorrect trimming causes a smaller and therefore lighter shoe to be used and altogether it seems to speed up those hind feet. Both these horses used to have bigger hind feet, spedcifically, longer hind feet. Removing hind foot toe appears to me, a layman but a observant owner of of horses for 45 years, to increase the likelyhood of forging.

River20640

[Gary Hill]

Take a good look again at your horse's conformation. Is he long legged and short backed? Lot's of arabs are. I would start addressing the front feet to get them out of the way of the hinds. Rolling, rockering or just backing up the toe accordingly might be all you need to do. On the hinds sometimes a slight square to the toe with extended heels works for some. Others might need a broader square toe or none at all? Every horse moves differantly because of their conformation so you should really watch the horse move to see for your self if the problem is in the front end or the hindend? Good Luck! Gary

[Peggy Dolan]

Here's a picture of a hind foot that I would suggest for a forging problem. The toe is squared and the heels are slightly extended. It doesn't take much to miss the fronts.
Peggy

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Peggy,

Could you please explain why the shoe in the picture posted eases breakover? From the picture it looks as if the toe still is very long, or maybe I should say breakover is still far to the front.



Ronald Aalders

[Peggy Dolan]

Sorry that I don't have another picture of the top of the foot. I wasn't trying to ease the breakover on this horse, he moves great with a flat, even trim. I tried to use the picture as an example of how little you need to square a toe to avoid forging with the fronts. As for a long toe, it's really a long foot, I like to leave the shoe forward, straight to the pastern angle. Peggy

[Rick Burten]

I don't want to be disagreeable but that is not a square toe. Broadened maybe, blunted maybe, but definately not squared.

I have no problem with that particular application, it is one that I too have used. Many times, using a shoe like this on the hinds, and a lighter, rolled or rockered toed shoe on the fronts is all that is needed.

Sometimes, these arabs tend to be a bit base narrow and what they also need is a shoe with lateral support. I am not a big fan of trailers, especially on an endurance horse. Too much chance they will catch on something.

Other things that have to be taken into considerationwhen forging is occuring include: mouth problems, saddle fit, rider abillity, fitness of the horse, conformation of the horse, terrain.

Rick

[Ronald Aalders]

Ok Peggy, I probably see things a little different. Reading the post I would have have eased breakover a lot, IMHO the best way to get rid of the problems noticed.

And what ever the shoe is it's not a square toe shoe.........


Ronald Aalders

[Peggy Dolan]

Gentlemen, Fair observation, that's not a square toe I posted, only picture I had that I thought would answer the forging question. Blunt is closer to how I applied it. Thank you
Ronald, your technique of breaking over to manage forging, please elaborate?
The question that River20640 posted regarding breakover increasing hind foot timing is still pondering me.
I much appreciate your insight
Peggy

[River20640]

Guess this thread should be termed Forging at this point. I have two Arab used in endurance. The 7 yr old mare is short backed, long legged and forges easily and consistantly wether shod or barefoot. Neither horse is base narrow in front or behind. The mare has longer, well sloped shoulders and pastern giving a soft comfortable ride but I've noticed that long sloped pasterns seem to be linked to tendency to forge. When she was purchase she was very overdue for a trim and had never been shod or ridden. Interestingly, with long toes and low heels on the front and long pointed hind toes she did not forge. After a several trims her feet were looking far better , her long toes were gone but the forging had started, barefoot, wether ridden or lunged. Her hind feet have a much rounder, blunter toe than they used to. With extended heels the forging is improved and she has quit pulling shoes but she strikes the bottom of her fron feet consistently. A slight trailer was tried at one point and it grabbed the ground too much and caused her hind legs to be jerked and stressed. Actually caused stifle soreness on one leg. The trailers were removed. I also tried just shoeing her with front shoes and she pulled her shoes badly with bare hind feet. I ride my horses in more of a frame than most trail riders (dressage background) and work to keep them off their fore hands and balanced going down the trails. If I do let them get strung out and rushing then the forging is certainly worse.

The gelding (the one with the chipped coffin bone) has a longer back and shorter legs and didn't forge with prior farrier but now forges a bit. The gelding has more typical angles and length of pasterns but is a bit butt high and heavy on the forehand. He takes quite a bit of rebalancing when being ridden because of his conformation. His hind feet have gotten quite small looking over the period that he has be shod. Hind shoes are set back and squared at the toes.

It's this small foot, shortened toe with a set back shoe on the HIND foot that I'm really questioning. I'm wondering if it's contributing to forging as it causes the hind foot to break over sooner and reach forward sooner, catching the front foot.

River 20640