Pads forever???

[Supernat]

Let me share with you a converstation that I had with another farrier that works in the same county that I do. I have always valued his opinion but im not sure that we agree on this one so let me know what you think.

There is this horse that has been diagnosed with Navicular and for the past one year and a half he has been wearing a wedge pad that keeps him 100% sound. When you take the wedge off him he is sore the next day but with a pad he is sound. This particular farrier made the comment that at some point im gonna have to pull those pads because the horse cant wear them forever. Im not so sure that I agree with his statment so im asking you all as the professionals.

What are the disadvantages of a horse wearing a wedge pad for an extended period of time. Thanks in advance for your input. Nat

[Donald Ruff]

Sounds like you are giving hime something that he will never obtain on his own.

Got a big TB mare that wore six degrees in the front she is now down to 3 over a one year period. maybe next year she will be out of them if she lives that long. Shes 26.

I personally don't see an issue with horses wearing pads for an extended period of time. If you have a plan and a goal in mind of setting them up to get out of there package.

Mind your trim and pay attention to the little things. That could be the difference between wedging or not. Also have to take into account all the factors the horse may present. Use, were they are used, how long they are used, how they are comformed, and how they are comfromed to do thier job.

[Joey Aczon]

Mind your trim and pay attention to the little things. That could be the difference between wedging or not. Also have to take into account all the factors the horse may present.Very true.

Shoe fit plays a huge role here too. I have known alot of farriers that refuse to do anything other than a perimiter fit, and some of these guys may well have their horses in wedges forever.

I generally try to get them out of pads, but if they need them, they need them. In these cases I use frog support pads if the horse can take them, (more severe cases can't, and most likely never will) otherwise just use a good medicated packing and do what it takes to keep them happy.

[SandraCraig]

I've wondered about this too. I've been told that wedging transfers some
load to the suspensory, so would that mean there could be a risk of suspensory issues in the long run??

[calshoer]

If the wedge is correcting a "broken back" alignment of the coffin joint and thereby creating proper alignment ,then it is not creating anything more than a normal work load to the suspensory. It is only when a wedge raises the coffin bone angle higher than the pastern (broken forward) that it should affect the suspensory. Most of the time, the proper uses of wedges is to properly align an otherwise misaligned joint, not raise it above that. Patty

[SandraCraig]

Patty, what do you think of using a wedge to achieve a heel-first landing in a horse that didn't have a broken-back axis??

[Rick Burten]

Obviously I'm not Patty, none the less, if the horse is landing flat and its breakover is correctly located, then I'm fine with that. If the horse is landing toe first, then I'm going to consider wedging to get the horse to either a flat or heel first landing.

[calshoer]

Pretty much ditto Rick. If they are aligned internally and the breakover is where it should be, but not landing flat to slight heel first, they should not need a wedge UNLESS you are treating an internal pathology that demands the wedge for a while (like a torn impar ligament).
If they are 'close but not quite there' in the landing I will often just add some kind of little frog support to the back third of the frog and that usually gets them there.
I will sometimes use a flat frog support pad, maybe even add a little bit of plastic across the very back inch or so to extend thast prt of the frog support just a wee bit past the shoe . It works real well, a vet in California taught me to use this approach.
I have found that assisting the very back of the frog more in this way helps them "find" their optimal reach and land on the heel. According to Dr Bowker it has to do with stimulating/ loading the proprioceptors under the back of the frog and thereby reprogramming their neuro movement system. In these cases , unless the frog is really puny or they need the support for something else, they won't usually need the frog pad the next time out.
Patty .

[ElHarris]

Patty,

You mean this Dr. Bowker??? The one that did the following?

Dr. Bowker
In 1999, the research of Dr. Robert Bowker/Michigan State University has found that wild horses
growing up on hard ground and with lots of movement do not develop navicular syndrome.
He attributes it to 2 factors:
- The wild horses develop tougher tissue in the hind part of the foot (digital cushion with tougher
fibers) as well as strong, high bulbs and
- The wild horses do not have high heels, their frog is strong and weightbearing.
Whenever he trimmed navicular horses to his "physiologic trim", the symptoms of navicular
syndrome disappeared.

And the Dr. Bowker that wrote this article?

http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html

And the one that spoken of on just about every single natual hoof care web site of any one that knows any thing?


http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DMUS_en___US237&q=natural+hoof+care+According+to+Dr+Bowker+

Just wondering?
El

[ElHarris]

Patty,

Over under the thread “Would you have done anything differently.” you replied in the following manner to my posts.

To"el". Although it would be nice to get the foot all the way to those parameters, and for sure the toe flare is an issue, your "ideal" can not be accomplished in an adult horse with this much long term change because of:
1) permanent bone changes (change in the actual solar margin shape of the coffin bone)
2) limited ability to change and DDF *muscle* contraction or to lengthen the actual tendon.

Some changes in the trim and/or shoeing are definitely needed, particulary in the toe to reduce tension on the offending muscle and tendon. However if someone actually took your diagrams and trimmed those feet to that parameter, I can guarantee the horse will immediately:
1) rotate the bone *more* as the heels can not get to the ground as it tries to load and therefore the deep flexor tendon is placed under extreme tension
2) possibly damage the tendon itself (I personally bowed plenty of flexor tensons in my early years trying to fix club feet just as you have diagrammed)
3) cause MORE thinning of the sole underneath the bone tip because of the toe being excessively thinned and weakened
4) begin the process of further damaging the bone edge itself (pedal osteitis) because of now being forced to land toe first because the HEELS can't get to the ground.

And for your information, the bulge in the coronary band is not due to what you say it is. It is like that because the second pastern bone is being mechanically shoved forward in the cofin joint, due to the long toe causing excess tension in the flexor tendons as the foot has to leverages over the toe.

There is a lot more to improving this than the shape of the foot istself .The practitioner must consider all the mechanics ABOVE the foot . Fixing these is mostly about the toe. The heels will come down on their own later but may NEVER be totally to your "ideal".

Patty

And then:

El... with the right KIND of therapeutuc *shoeing*, the horse could likely have been walking that well (or better) immediately after the shoeing rather than having to suffer two more weeks..
Patty

Yes it may, even in a non fopundered foot, but it is because because frequent trimmig can weaken the foot and cause *inflammation* and the foot responds with faster growth, just as in a laminitic foot. ..is that the healthy way to get more growth?? I certainly don't think so. Patty

My Reply to this after now reading your profile and visiting your web site is this:

From what you said, and the kind of nasty way in which you said things, as in saying “And for your information.” (which sounds right out of high school)….I assumed that you were your traditional, don’t want to hear anything else, and forget all that natural trimming bologna, because that is the way you came off.

But then I read the post in this thread and you mentioned Dr. Bowker, and then I’m just CONFUSED. Because I know what Dr. Bowker promotes, and it’s not your traditional style farrierism. So I’m CONFUSED because of the CONTRADICTION in what you say, cutting me down on the one hand and dropping Dr. Bowkers name on the other hand. So then I descide to fiind out exactly who you are and what you do, to try and clear up the confusion.

Well, my, my, imagine my surprise to see that on your web site Hoof Care Specailties LLC, where I find, “Patty is a certified Natural Balance farrier AND BAREFOOT TRIMMER, and uses Natural Balance as the basis for her performance and therapeutic farrier services.”

(The following comments have been edited from their original by me)

Now nothing upsets me more than that type of hypocracy.

I’m amazed you actually promote natural balance and barefoot trimming since you obviously by your comments, at least regarding my posts, don't believe in it. Again that is called "Hypocracy". and a person who behaved in such a way would be a "hypocrite". And it seems to be similar to what many times goes on in religuos circles when it comes to preachers, you don’t have to actually believe in God or be called by god, you can just go to any seminary and get a licence and they give you a church.

The word hypocrite was first used by Jesus to describe religious leaders (teachers and "instructors") of his time, who said one thing and did another. At that time the word had only been used by the Greeks to refer to "actors", as a hypocrite is an actor, playing a part and not truly what they say they are. These same people were also refered to as snakes and vipers, because of the way they would come in and try and snipe at what ever Jesus shared in his teachings.

When people share here, they are sharing what they believe to be the DOCTRINE of the correct way to take care of a horses hooves. In other words they are sharing or teaching others what they beleive to be the truth. But what is the "truth" to you? Because on the the one hand you say certain things to me, as is stated above, while on the other hand you promote those very things on your web site. Perhaps you need to brush up on natural barefoot and natural balance trimming, since freequent trimming is one of the main principles.

El

[Cyber Farrier]

You shouldn't have even said some of the things you did say. I'm not going to remove your post, but if you decide to go on another name-calling rant, be forewarned, it will be removed.

Baron

[tbloomer]

When people share here, they are sharing what they believe to be the DOCTRINE of the correct way to take care of a horses hooves.
Some do share doctrine - I call it dogma. 'nuther words some do what they believe is right based on what they've been told by whomever they believe is an authority. Thus placing the responsibility for their decisions on the "authority" instead of themselves. Usually folks in this camp "prove" their assertions by quoting some "authority" like Bowker or the Bible.

Also there are some who do what they do based on personal knowledge and experience in mechanics, physics, anatomy, and locomotion. 'nuther words they think for themselves and assume responsibility for their decisions based on the authority of thier assesment rather than following somebody elses recipie. Usually folks in this camp prove their assertions by laying out a logical thought process and backing it up with good mechanical data.

Personally I think you've crossed the line within your own doctrine by "judging" Patty Stiller. Not keeping score, but this quote comes to mind, "Judge not, least ye be judged." :eek:

[calshoer]

Elharris, it is clear that it is *You* who does not understand what is involved in Natural Balance principles.
I am a long term advocate of that particular protocol ,have worked alongside Gene O (who developed it) for years, and I teach Natural Balance exclusively, with Gene Ovnivek's blessing .
As well I am Level 4 (top level ) certified in the protocol and use no other principles in my practice.
If you think there was hypocracy in comparing my website to what I stated about the foot in question here, then it is clear you do not understand Natural Balance at all.
Or maybe you are confusing OTHER so called "natural" protocols with "Natural Balance" . Patty

[calshoer]

Patty,

You mean this Dr. Bowker??? The one that did the following?

Dr. Bowker
In 1999, the research of Dr. Robert Bowker/Michigan State University has found that wild horses
growing up on hard ground Yes the same Dr.Bowker, who was working directly with Gene Ovnicek at that time with the feral hooves, and who's research (the same research which you cite) helped develop natural balance SHOEING as well as NB barefoot trimming.
Patty

[Rick Burten]

You mean this Dr. Bowker??? The one that did the following?

Dr. Bowker
In 1999, the research of Dr. Robert Bowker/Michigan State University has found that wild horses
growing up on hard ground and with lots of movement do not develop navicular syndrome.
Really? Did he follow a group of horses from cradle to grave? Of the ones he observed that subsequently died, did he do PM exams of the feet? If so, where is that published? How large was his study group? Without a full pre-study lameness exam and then a post-study lameness exam of each horse in the study, how could he possibly know whether or not An horse(s) had or developed navicular syndrome, let alone, navicular disease? You do ken the difference between the two, right?

Sounds to me as though the good doctor is at least somewhat guilty of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[mwmyersdvm]

Patty,

You mean this Dr. Bowker??? The one that did the following?

Dr. Bowker
In 1999, the research of Dr. Robert Bowker/Michigan State University has found that wild horses
growing up on hard ground and with lots of movement do not develop navicular syndrome.
He attributes it to 2 factors:
- The wild horses develop tougher tissue in the hind part of the foot (digital cushion with tougher
fibers) as well as strong, high bulbs and
- The wild horses do not have high heels, their frog is strong and weightbearing.
Whenever he trimmed navicular horses to his "physiologic trim", the symptoms of navicular
syndrome disappeared.

And the Dr. Bowker that wrote this article?

http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html

And the one that spoken of on just about every single natual hoof care web site of any one that knows any thing?


http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DMUS_en___US237&q=natural+hoof+care+According+to+Dr+Bowker+

Just wondering?
El


This is an observaton and not a scientific study. Since not every horse was followed from birth to the grave, I would add to the possibility that those that did develop lameness poblems fell victim to predators and there bodies removed from the observational pool. There are other "studies" which are also observations that found lesions in fossil bones of prehistoric horses that appeared like those we see radiographically. I'm afraid the jury is still out to date.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

ElHarris in gray, deletia

You mean this Dr. Bowker??? The one that did the following?

Yes'm, you've got the right Dr. Bowker. He's renowned for his many contributions to farriery's vast repository of junkscience and appears to have developed his very own, personal, scientific method in which he goes from forming a hypothesis straight to press releases without bothering with any of that bothersome stuff like experiment, empiricism, publication, peer review, replication, etc.

In 1999, the research of Dr. Robert Bowker/Michigan State University has found that wild horses growing up on hard ground and with lots of movement do not develop navicular syndrome.

Dr. Bowker's conjecture does not imply he "found" anything.

He attributes it to 2 factors:
- The wild horses develop tougher tissue in the hind part of the foot (digital cushion with tougher fibers) as well as strong, high bulbs and
- The wild horses do not have high heels, their frog is strong and weightbearing.

There are no "wild" horses in the Americas, there are only feral and domestic members of the same genus and species, Equus caballus. Anatomically, the two are indistinguishable.

Feral horses do not pull loads, carry weight, or engage in forced exercise: Did Bowker have a control group of domestic horses engaged in similar non-activities, in a similar environment, with which to compare his "findings"? If not - and he didn't - then his observation is meaningless.

Whenever he trimmed navicular horses to his "physiologic trim", the symptoms of navicular syndrome disappeared.

One hates to burst your Bowker balloon, but on presentation with a horse going toe-down-first, just about anyone with knowledge, nippers and a rasp can palliate some/all of the symptoms of caudal heel pain simply by shortening the effective length and raising the effective angulation of the phalangeal lever.

And the Dr. Bowker that wrote this article?

http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html

Yes'm, Bowker's guilty of penning that nonsense.

And the one that spoken of on just about every single natual hoof care web site of any one that knows any thing?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DMUS_en___US237&q=natural+hoof+care+According+to+Dr+Bowker+

The same. The Natural Nonsense folks who don't know squat about horse's feet love him because Bowker tells them what they want to hear, replete with buzzwords like, "wild horse", "natural", and similar meaningless terms. He becomes strangely reticent, as does most of the barefoot uber alles camp, when asked how horses inflicted with his designer trim have done in objectively quantifed, head-to-head, competitions with horses trimmed/shod according to use-based farriery. One can only wonder why.

Just wondering?

Now you know. :)

[Jaye Perry]

Sir Thomas,

Why do you banter, parlay and play with these types of hobbyists? :confused:

This is not a discerning question but one of interest and intrigue~~

[Jason Maki]

Jaye,
We have a barn cat that has brought home rabbits, and will kill and decapitate full grown rats and not get scratched. When he gets bored, he swats the dog and takes the canines squeeky toy to bat about... Mr. Tom may be bored and needs something to banty about:rolleyes:
Just guessin'
Jason

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Bro Jaye in gray
Why do you banter, parlay and play with these types of hobbyists? :confused:

Sometimes, it amuses me to shoot fish in a barrel. I know it ain't sporting, but I keep hoping all the noise and intellectual splashing will make some passerby wonder what all the ruckus is about and maybe, just maybe, cause their neurons to start firing. It could happen.

This is not a discerning question but one of interest and intrigue~~

You can bet it ain't altruism - so it must be single malt. :)

[Jaye Perry]

Tom Stovall, CJF;-Bro Jaye in gray
Why do you banter, parlay and play with these types of hobbyists? :confused:

Sometimes, it amuses me to shoot fish in a barrel. I know it ain't sporting, but I keep hoping all the noise and intellectual splashing will make some passerby wonder what all the ruckus is about and maybe, just maybe, cause their neurons to start firing. It could happen.



"Sport is FUN"!. I agree, an or maybe a desisive inquesitor may "research" and follow up with some empirical findings that it "ALL DEPENDS"!

IME, academic studies are clues to solutions to everyday problems.




This is not a discerning question but one of interest and intrigue~~

You can bet it ain't altruism - so it must be single malt. :)





True; but in reading some of your latests' < parlays, a re- supply is in order? I still feel my "Welcome Sign" is not fully atoned for?:cool:

[Phil Armitage]

Sometimes, it amuses me to shoot fish in a barrel. I know it ain't sporting, but I keep hoping all the noise and intellectual splashing will make some passerby wonder what all the ruckus is about and maybe, just maybe, cause their neurons to start firing. It could happen.



Hey what's all the ruckus about? Sputter, sput, suputter, bang, bang, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRR. Wow, what is that noise in my head.

[Mark_Gough]

Hey what's all the ruckus about? Sputter, sput, suputter, bang, bang, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRR. Wow, what is that noise in my head.

There are days when a guy can't decide if these forums are worth more in educational or entertainment value.

Those are pretty good days!

Tom's even got my old horse to gigglin'. Heck, I didn't know that hayburner could read! Never shoulda put wireless in the barn. Next thing ya know, I'll catch him surfin' the net for mares!

See what we learn here!

You guys are a hoot! :D

Mark

[mwmyersdvm]

Patty,

You mean this Dr. Bowker??? The one that did the following?

Dr. Bowker
In 1999, the research of Dr. Robert Bowker/Michigan State University has found that wild horses
growing up on hard ground and with lots of movement do not develop navicular syndrome.
He attributes it to 2 factors:
- The wild horses develop tougher tissue in the hind part of the foot (digital cushion with tougher
fibers) as well as strong, high bulbs and
- The wild horses do not have high heels, their frog is strong and weightbearing.
Whenever he trimmed navicular horses to his "physiologic trim", the symptoms of navicular
syndrome disappeared.

And the Dr. Bowker that wrote this article?

http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html

And the one that spoken of on just about every single natual hoof care web site of any one that knows any thing?


http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DMUS_en___US237&q=natural+hoof+care+According+to+Dr+Bowker+

Just wondering?
El


While this is a lovely thought, one must also consider that those horses that do develop any lameness issues are usually predator fodder and the predators may get to them before we have a chance to. It also doesn't explain where one study (don't remember exactly where it was done) found navicular lesions in prehistoric horse fossils. Definitely food for thought.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[OLDTRUCK]

Patty,

You mean this Dr. Bowker??? The one that did the following?

Dr. Bowker
In 1999, the research of Dr. Robert Bowker/Michigan State University has found that wild horses
growing up on hard ground and with lots of movement do not develop navicular syndrome.
He attributes it to 2 factors:
- The wild horses develop tougher tissue in the hind part of the foot (digital cushion with tougher
fibers) as well as strong, high bulbs and
- The wild horses do not have high heels, their frog is strong and weightbearing.
Whenever he trimmed navicular horses to his "physiologic trim", the symptoms of navicular
syndrome disappeared.

And the Dr. Bowker that wrote this article?

http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html

And the one that spoken of on just about every single natual hoof care web site of any one that knows any thing?


http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DMUS_en___US237&q=natural+hoof+care+According+to+Dr+Bowker+

Just wondering?
El


He forgot the most important part.

Any wild horse that goes lame for any reason is coyote bait.

[Complete Equine]

Just wanted to throw something out there. I've got a navicular case that had been pretty lame since about 2002. He's a barrel racer and the owner will do anything to keep him comfortable and able to run. She had tried just about everything, and no matter what, any time his wedge goes below 3 degrees, he is off. However, with frog support pads he was ouchy, and without them his frog atrophies and he gets thrush like no ones business. Last spring, we finally found a solution that worked and he has been going strong since. Regular shoe, 3 degree pads perimeter fit to the shoe (I just use a jigsaw to cut them to fit), and rocker the toes to help breakover and decrease stress on the laminae. I'm sure it won't work for everyone, but I just thought I would post pictures to encourage you to be creative... and just to think about your reasoning behind your decisions. In other words (like others had mentioned earlier) if wedge pads align him correctly and he is sound, is there a reason to remove them? If there is a reason (in my case, thrush or stressed laminae) can you develop a creative solution? I'm sure you can! Think outside the box if need be. :) Good luck and keep us posted.