Hindfoot Negative Palmar Angle

[susamorg]

This kind of goes with the David Nichol's HQ Lameness thread but I didn't know whether to start a new thread or not...

I have a mare (WB/TB cross) that I suspect has a slight negative PA in the hind feet. She had been in NB shoes on the front for two years and then last year we put her in the NB hinds. The one thing I noticed was that she snubbed the toe that hangs over the shoe off worse than with the regular shoes fit to NB priniciples although she snubbed them off with those too.
She is currently barefoot now and has been since mid November and she hasn't dubbed the toe as badly barefoot. However, her foot appears to me to have a slight bullnosed appearance although not as extreme as the pictures Ron had in the other thread. She doesn't have any major resistances under saddle as far as leads or rein back but standing around in her paddock she just does not appear comfortable in the hind end. She almost is always resting one foot or the other and fairly frequently shifts her weight back and forth. She sometimes has some soreness in the SI joint. She has big fat frogs on all four feet but I suspect her to be the type that just has weak internal structures. Her conformation certainly doesn't help her being long, with a low set neck and slightly downhill :rolleyes: . She is primarily a pleasure horse be I do my training utilizing dressage exercises--nothing competitive. I will be getting her shod in a couple of week.

Is this a case where the breakover needs to be set back even farther?
I may try to get her in for radiographs which would definitively answer the angle question. My primary vet however is not an NB fan so I may have to change vets for these radiographs. I'm sticking with NB's. These are the first shoes to take care of the tripping issues up front secondary to her body balance. Thanks for your time.
Susan

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Susan,

I wonder what your primary vet is a fan of!

In order to prevent damage not only to the foot, but also to hocks, stifles, sacro illiac and lumbar region the negative PA of your horse need to be dealt with now!

On negative PA's bringing back breakover is not enough, you also need wedges. If you're comfortable with NB, as far as I know their EDSS allows you to use wedges too, but others can fill you in on that much better.

Have X rays taken. Find out the amount of wedge you need and use it. Be sure to also have X rays taken after the application! You want to know if the application is enough.


Ronald Aalders

[Katy Watts]

Sue,
I have to agree with Ron. My older mare has had this problem for many years, and nothing stops her from stumbling behind except wedges. Tried all kinds of things. If I ride in smooth dirt, I can see she drags her toes. She has developed a thickened spot in the tendons just above the hock. Sorry don't know my anatomy well. She too, is mainly a pleasure horse, but we 'play' at dressage. Only when on wedges through the summer do I feel that she is using her hind end well, and can properly engage and collect. I had to take off the back shoes due to a snowy winter, and she's back stumbling behind again. Once she threw a back shoe, and I took the other off till my farrier could get here. The stumbling behind was immediate. The wedges behind go back on next shoeing.
Katy

[calshoer]

You got good advice here already.
If she has negative palmer angles, then wedges (full PADS, not open wedge shoes) will correct the angles and support the frog at the same time. If the negative angle is not much, it may not take a lot of wedge, in fact sometimes just adding a solid flat plastic plate such as the EDSS all purpose plate with impression material is enough to support the frog and align the bones. As well the breakover may need to be just a bit furher back.I have found that is if I get more aggresive with the breakover point the negative angles may improve, even without a wedge. (don';t ask me why that happens, I don't have a clue).
Sometimes on really bad negative palmer angle hind feet, front shoes work even better than hind shoes toget the breakover back. But be sure to supply the farrier with the lateral Xrays so he can place the breakover just under the tip of the coffin bone but not further back than that. It IS possible to get it too far back. Patty

[susamorg]

Thanks all. No one(vet, farrier or DVM/chiro) has ever brought up negative PA angle. I got to thinking about it after reading another post on the main Horseshoes.com board. It makes perfect sense though seeing the mares body build and the signs of stress in the hindend I've seen. Everybody has poked and prodded her rear end and I've questioned hocks but as usual--start at the foot ;) . I questioned her dubbing her hind toes off last summer and didn't really get a good answer (something akin to that's the way she is :rolleyes: ) I will get some x-rays and see if this hunch that the mare has negative PA is correct. Is x-raying the back feet the same protocol as fronts?
Thanks, Susan

[calshoer]

Same Xray protocol. Make sure the lateral view is a good level one. If you take an AP (from the front)to check for medial lateral balance it is a lot harder because the Xray machine has to be under the horse's belly but as long as you are paying to set up for laterals you might as well get those shots too. Patty

[susamorg]

Well...yikes, I am going to have to change vets. I talked it over with the vet yesterday when I had my other horse in for some dental work. His thought was that they have all those joints above the foot that should be able to adapt and adjust so he doesn't think it is that important if they do have a bit of an negative angle:eek: .

He will do the lateral x-rays on Tuesday and I will have them for my farrier. If she needs further workup, I will for sure change vets.

Thanks all. Susan