Please Give Me Your Insight On Photos [Archive] - The Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center Forums

kmc52462

10-14-2007, 12:49 PM

27-2007, 10:25 PM
kmc52462
Member Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 27

Please Give Me Your Insight On Photos

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I have a horse who has been sore with bruising/inflammation on the r/f heel area due to long toe/underun heels. She is usually shod in eventers & rims but Dr. had me put her in steel eggbars and just handwalking but have not seen any improvement, infact she is much worse.It has been 4 weeks.Took her to the vet and Dr. said eggbars farrier put on are too small and causing more pain/ heel pressure. Hospital farrier put new shoes on and she is going sound almost overnight.She has been moving close to perfect ever since. A few of you didn't agree with the second shoeing either. I can only go by my horses soundness by the second set but want to know why you do not like the way this horse was reshod? They did go over the xrays at the hospital first before doing anything. Please give me some insight since I do not know what I should do when it is time to have her reshod which is in 2 weeks. I have to either let the old shoer (first set of eggbars) or hospital shoer redo her until I find someone in my area. I was told she would probably go back to reg. shoes in 4 weeks if everything is good. What would you do?

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Last edited by kmc52462 : 10-13-2007 at 11:33 AM. Reason: no response

Gary Hill

10-14-2007, 03:47 PM

If I remember how that last thread went, the second shoeing was agreed to be the better result for your horse, BUT that it need some sort of frog support, and a better breakover.

Rick Burten

10-14-2007, 04:31 PM

I remember it the same as Gary does.

One question: Is the foot in the before photos the same foot as is pictured in the after photos?

calshoer

10-14-2007, 04:55 PM

Without frog support, that foot is going to continue on a path to a WORSE negative palmer angle coffin bone as the frog contimues to sink through that thick package until it gets to the ground. Tha ttakes the back of the coffin bone down with it.
The heels bulbs are being stressed , as there is NO support to the back of the foot because the pad stops far short. Frankly, the horse would be better off barefoot than with that particular shoeing.
Patty

kmc52462

10-14-2007, 06:04 PM

Remember, the horse is now sound. Shoes are hopefully only for 4 wks and then vet is to recheck. If she were barefoot she would be so sore and not be able to walk. I don't see why that would help? Pressure must be off something or she wouldn't be pain free. I now understand what you are saying about the frog needing support but what about the question I had regarding xrays? Could there be a reason not to?

Rick Burten

10-14-2007, 06:08 PM

This foot appears to have undergone an amazing transformation, from an underrun heel dished toe appearance to an underrun heel- bullnosed toe appearance. Neither of which is a good condition.

As Patty indicated, this horse needs frog support. For a coffin bone to have moved from its former orientation to its current orientation, indicates to me that the lack of frog support allowed the frog and the structures above it to prolapse, and prolapse quickly. I'd sure want to see some current radiographs before I reshod this horse.

The only way I'd add wedges to this package was if the frog and bars and commissures were all correctly supported, and just looking at the 'after' photo, wedging is indicated. And so is better breakover location.

calshoer

10-14-2007, 08:29 PM

When the vet and farrier looked over the x-rays and tested the foot would there be a reason they were not concerned about the horse needing frog support? Because they apparently are shoeing to align the bones based only according to the Xray but ignoring the supportive and connective *tissues* inside the foot that have to HOLD THE BACK OF THE BONE UP . I am curious and clueless to any of this and just want to do the right thing.see above. Also I remember him saying he thought wedge pads might make things worse Ask him why.Ill bet that he thinks that wedge pads will crish the heels worse, and they will, IF FROG support is not included in the shoeing, and IF the heels do not get properly trimmed *back as far as possible* to elongate the base of the foot and get to good straght horn that is not underrun *before the wedges are applied*.
and also telling vet that he didn't have much to work with this time and couldn't take much off without making horse even more sore. Please respond.There are many creative materials and ways to deal with those issues without making he horse sore, but apparently your farrier does not have the means to do it. Yes, you are seeing temporary soundness (I'll bet not 100% sound to his potential ) at the moment ,but it will be short lived as this shoeing causes more heel pain because the insides of the back of the foot are prolasping and the heels are still underrunning.
In other words,with the frog sinking the insides are going south (prolapsing) while the outside is going north. (jamming up) . All the tissues in between get torn and bruised, hence the heel pain.
Patty

calshoer

10-14-2007, 08:34 PM

And Maybe this will explain it easier: The arrows are the general direction of hoof movement or forces when the foot bears weight. . In a properly loading foot with the frog working, the heel bulb movement should is UPward and and OUTward, not inward and down.

calshoer

10-14-2007, 08:46 PM

And I am in agreement with Rick. The foot was not bulged before, despite the sun glare. I manipulated the contrast, brightness and midtones in my computer to better see the outline of the hoofwall. It clearly had a normal hoof angle in the top third of the hoofwall , and distoprtion (flare) at the bottom, creating the dish. before the addition of the rim pads, and now clearly bulged all the way down. . The rapidness of the dissapearance of the "dish" in the center section of the hoofwall from this to what is there now is a bit frightening.
Patty

Rick Burten

10-14-2007, 09:00 PM

Thanks Patty. You see exactly what I saw, sunlight not withstanding. Glad to know that my poor old tired eyes aren't deceiving me.
All her feet do not have an "amazing transformation". Just someone who doesn't recognize different camera angles,sunlight and amateur photography,
ROTFLMAO! You admit that you are clueless , yet you accuse me of not recognizing camera angles, sunlight and amateur photography? Amazing.

Whatcha want to bet that radiographs of the foot before, will show p3 rotating downward at its distal leading edge, and rads taken after will show a negative plane p3?

Katy Watts

10-14-2007, 10:08 PM

KMC,
I happen to know that Patty is very good at dealing with this type of foot, because she helped my mare with negative P3 a great deal. Perhaps you should be asking your vet how much education he has had in remedial shoeing, and how many horses he has shod sucessfully to correct this condition?

Katy

Phil Armitage

10-15-2007, 07:19 AM

I will take some more after pics with the first camera I used and see how they come out. If there is a change I will post them tomorrow. Just curious because I know how easy it is to change perception just by angles /lighting etc. How do think photographers make someone look 5 pounds thinner just by shooting slightly upright? I will also get radiographs done when I go back in two weeks. I had them done an hour before horse was shod. So if this is a bet, I think loser should pay for the second set of x-rays.;) Also if any of you can post any pictures of feet you have shod in the way you are explaining that would be really be helpful to me. That way maybe I can better understand.Thank-you

The second set of pictures you posted with the bar shoes and rim pads. Do the same just add equipak for support. It also works with open shoes and rim pads. What everyone is recommending is support the coffin bone. Negative palmer angle is due to weak internal structures like the digital cushion and lateral cartiladge. The more you get the frog from the ground in feet like this the more it will prolapse. It is evident in your pictures that this is the case. Going barefoot is an option, gets the frog on the ground and pushes the digital cushion back up, however I read that your horse cannot handle it. Trimming the heels properly is extremely important. It will appear you cannot trim them down anymore, but they need to trimmed down to healthy solid heel to the junction of the bars in the seat of corn. Then if needed a wedge pad along with frog support can be applied if the frog is not prolapsed past the heels too much or going with a shoe and rim pad and frog support pad or equipak to get around the prolapsed frog. Over time the hoof capsule distortion and angle of the coffin bone will improve relieveing internal stress and pain in the feet. Saying my horse is sound right now and ignoreing the obvious distortion of the hoof capsule is not a good idea in the long run.

Rick Burten

10-15-2007, 08:13 AM

Also if any of you can post any pictures of feet you have shod in the way you are explaining that would be really be helpful to me.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/PattenbarshoeNSHCinductionmischo-2.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome015-1.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome012-1.jpg

kmc52462

10-15-2007, 11:40 AM

O.k. I see now what you mean.Thank-you. Now how do I find someone who can do this properly? Should I pull her shoes now instead of leaving these on? I know she will be sore but I also do not want to do more damage. Now I am scared to death!

Phil Armitage

10-15-2007, 05:10 PM

Why are you changeing to another farrier?

reillyshoe

10-15-2007, 06:10 PM

Your horse is sound, and I would be very careful about changing things. Perhaps I am missing this but have we established for certain that there is a negative palmar angle of the coffn bone? Have you posted radiographs?

Rick Burten

10-15-2007, 07:21 PM

Pat,

In your experience, what other condition(s) would account for the bullnosed appearance of the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule, as seen in the supplied photographs?

Brian Purrington

10-15-2007, 07:38 PM

Just thinkin' out loud.... How about a poorly guided rasp? :eek:

If you look at Patty's markup from before the job, it looks like this guy was trying to get some toe back but forgot how to dress a wall in a straight line. Before the job the foot actually had a dish about 1/3 of the way down the dorsal surface. (as you also mentioned)

Not arguing just givin' a possiblity....

calshoer

10-15-2007, 09:36 PM

Ok... now they do look bull nosed in the 'before' pics . You can see how we were very decieved :o by the other pictures, because even with light manipulation they really looked dished.
But it is still clear that your horse is likely suffering from negative plane coffin bones, as I have NEVER YET in over a decade found feet with that form that did not have a negative angle in the coffin bone.
All the more reason to get that frog working and suppotred.
It is the frog and digital cushion inside the foot that will help support the bck of the bone and align the coffin joint . Raising just the heels and leaving the frog hanging gives temporary bone alignment but then it all goes south again.

To correct this without soring the horse, the farrier may have to do it in stages .
Here is a plan I use a lot that works well.
If the frog is really sensitive to hoof testers over it's center, I would go with a more passive support like the Equipack filling added to the current package as Phil suggested for the first time,but with the toe of the shoe brought back more. (rolled or rockered ,or set back)
Then the next time a full wedge pad to 'sling' the frog up into the foot , followed by a 'frog support' wedge pad the third time.

And the heels of the foot need to be trimmed down *as much as possible* before the wedge pad is applied, as that will avoid crushing them more and encourage straighter horn growth.
As well the pad should be as long as the shoe, not cut short like this one.
It is a system that has worked qiuite well for me in these kind of feet if they are shod.
Patty

Appassionato

10-16-2007, 01:07 AM

Phil Armitage

10-16-2007, 06:32 AM

I hate to hijack, but maybe kmc could learn from my questions as well. I learned about hooves after my horse's founder, so in advance please forgive me!

In Miss Patty's draw up (not insinuating any marital status, it's a "Southern thang" to say "Miss" to those not ancient and anciently married ;), it's an old habit of mine) my first reaction to her arrows is the point where the heel bears weight was "OUCH!" That said, would the experts here mind explaining to me how anything done short of taking this shoeing package off and starting over would help? The horse appears short-shod. My horse I can promise would be lame after such shoeing due to the lack of heel support from the shoeing package itself. I'm also a big believer in Equipak, but I'm not so sure Equipak loaded into the rear portion would help from my own personal experience. Since each horse is different, I'm asking what you guys think.

Your horse had pedal osteitis from foundering. This horse appears to have hoof capsule distortion that indicates the coffin bone is at a reverse angle. Two different problems. Horses with Pedal Osteitis can't tolerate pressure in the toe and equipak can setup firm enough to cause problems. Horses with a negative rotation of the coffin bone usually have very low underrun heels and over sized frog and a frog support pad may not fit because of the frog, however rim pad on a bar shoe and Equipak will provide the needed support. Horses with a negative plane coffin bone angle are prone to many problems. The best way to confirm this is with X=rays. I agree with Patty and Rick all the signes are there on this horse.

reillyshoe

10-16-2007, 09:20 AM

Pat,

In your experience, what other condition(s) would account for the bullnosed appearance of the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule, as seen in the supplied photographs?

Rick,
A rasp (as Brian points out) could account for the foot shape, as could abrasive footing, or some alteration in the stimulus on the foot (change in environment, forces, shoes/barefoot) could all result in this hoof morphology.
My point is not that the suggestions here are incorrect, but that we only have access to very limited information. The vet and farrier spent (per the owner) five hours examining, radiographing, potentially blocking, potentially using hoof testers, watching the horse move, etc. The bottom line is they have much more information than we have been presented with and have made adjustments that has resulted in a sound horse. We haven't even seen radiographs (in fact I think we only have a few lateral pictures), and yet we presume to have a better handle on the situation than those involved.

Why does this matter? I don't remember all the facts, but I seem to recall this owner pulling new shoes based upon comments made here. I think we might consider exercising a bit more caution before making suggestions on limited information. How many here watch a horse move before making decisions on what to do? How many of you look a radiographs of a lame horse (when available) before making a decision?

Predicting lameness is a risky business. We have all seen horses stay sound with what we would consider to be "improper shoeing". What is correct for this horse? Perhaps it depends on information we do not have.

Phil Armitage

10-16-2007, 06:19 PM

I agree a rasp or abrasive footing could account for the bullnoseing. I have done many horses that farriers blamed a rasp and abrasive footing and it turned out to be a negative plane. After provideing support the horses improvement was huge. No signs of lameness were ever noticed however the horses gait and willingness to work improved. A simple way to verify this would be to take x-rays. When I see bullnoseing, protrudeing large frog and low heels I request x-rays.

calshoer

10-16-2007, 07:46 PM

In Miss Patty's draw up (not insinuating any marital status, it's a "Southern thang" to say "Miss" to those not ancient and anciently married , it's an old habit of mine) my first reaction to her arrows is the point where the heel bears weight was "OUCH!" That said, would the experts here mind explaining to me how anything done short of taking this shoeing package off and starting over would help? The horse appears short-shodYes the pad is certainly short but the shoe itself is not to bad so if the farrier fills the existing package with equipack all the way back to the end of the shoe, just for this time , it will assist in correcting the lack of frog support. That will allow that poor foot to grow some before yet another change is made.

You can cause secondary problems when you try to change a shoeing too soon after it was done. Especially changing the heel trim.
For example, if the toe was trimmed short from the bottom in the first shoeing and you pull everything off soon after then lower the heels , then try to get the foot flat again for a new shoe, there is a great risk of trimming the toe too short and soring the horse. That is why its sometimes better to wait awhile to make trim changes or reset the shoe. Several weeks of growth can allow greater changes to be made safely.
Patty

calshoer

10-16-2007, 07:51 PM

AS to the Xrays and assessing coffin bone angles , make SURE that at the moment the pics were shot that the horse was bearing weight equally on BOTH feet, with BOTH feet up on equal height Xray blocks.

If the opposite foot was held up, or the foot being XRayed was put in a forward stance on one block, it will seriously skew the bone alignment resultsand make a coffin joint that is not aligned appear to be aligned, because the fetlock/pastern angle is changed.
. As well ask the vet what was the angle of the BOTTOM edge of the coffin bone relative to the ground. That is where negative palmer angle is found.
It should normally be greater than zero, somewhere between 1 and 5 degrees .
Patty

calshoer

10-16-2007, 07:57 PM

Predicting lameness is a risky business. We have all seen horses stay sound with what we would consider to be "improper shoeing". What is correct for this horse? Perhaps it depends on information we do not have.The information we DO have here is the frog is left suspended in the air, and the foot is effectively short shod because the pad is cut too short. I think that the mechanics created those problems are a fairly strong predictor of future secondary heel pain due to the shoeing. I have fixed far too many who were just like this to believe otherwise. I will stick to my predictions. And what some people call "sound" is not really all that sound by my definition.
Patty

Appassionato

10-16-2007, 08:26 PM

Your horse had pedal osteitis from foundering.

Actually, it was the other way around. The bottom line is that I have a founder that also has pedal osteitis, no doubt

This horse appears to have hoof capsule distortion that indicates the coffin bone is at a reverse angle. Two different problems.

I'm aware that the horse has a different issue. And as Mr. Pat mentioned, we don't know the whole story. There's no way we could. Jaye still finds out tidbits of Bo's past as *I* remember them. But that said, my questioning of the arrow on Patty's draw up was iwhat could be done to help the horse short of taking the package off. I completely understand not wanting to rip a horse's shoes off yet due to possibly creating more issues for the horse.

Horses with Pedal Osteitis can't tolerate pressure in the toe and equipak can setup firm enough to cause problems.

Mine can. :confused:

The only time he couldn't take Equipak in the front portion of the hoof was when it was simply too soft. A toughener helped that along. I'm not saying this is what the OP's horse needs, I have no experience with her horse's problem. Hence I asked the above questions.

Horses with a negative rotation of the coffin bone usually have very low underrun heels and over sized frog and a frog support pad may not fit because of the frog, however rim pad on a bar shoe and Equipak will provide the needed support. Horses with a negative plane coffin bone angle are prone to many problems. The best way to confirm this is with X=rays. I agree with Patty and Rick all the signes are there on this horse.

No question x-rays would be helpful. Were there not some on the other thread? I truthfully cannot remember. However, with changes made to her horse recently in shoeing, would new ones be vaulable here? Compare the old and new?

Appassionato

10-16-2007, 08:39 PM

Yes the pad is certainly short but the shoe itself is not to bad so if the farrier fills the existing package with equipack all the way back to the end of the shoe, just for this time , it will assist in correcting the lack of frog support. That will allow that poor foot to grow some before yet another change is made.

You can cause secondary problems when you try to change a shoeing too soon after it was done. Especially changing the heel trim.
For example, if the toe was trimmed short from the bottom in the first shoeing and you pull everything off soon after then lower the heels , then try to get the foot flat again for a new shoe, there is a great risk of trimming the toe too short and soring the horse. That is why its sometimes better to wait awhile to make trim changes or reset the shoe. Several weeks of growth can allow greater changes to be made safely.
Patty

Thank you Miss Patty, I thought that was what you were trying to get at with the arrow I mentioned.

I've done the longer-than-normal shoeing periods with my guy before to get some hoof growth. The longest has been 8 weeks. I updated Jaye frequently with pictures to help him gauge when I should bring him back (my horse and I live about 3 hours away). Only once did I run into problems, Bo had still been having slow hoof growth until Jaye went out of town. Then CRAZY growth occured immediately after Jaye left town, and I had a very lame horse that I had to pull the shoes off myself (Sigafoos) and put him in boots (spare tires ;)). Bo just missed his buddy I guess. :rolleyes:

So, I certainly feel for the OP in that I know how frustrating it is to try to learn about what has happened as well as try to best help her situation by asking questions. Truly my intentions are the same. Thank you for your thoughts!

Phil Armitage

10-16-2007, 11:09 PM

my questioning of the arrow on Patty's draw up was iwhat could be done to help the horse short of taking the package off. I completely understand not wanting to rip a horse's shoes off yet due to possibly creating more issues for the horse.

On this thread I mentioned leaveing the existing shoes as they are and adding equipak a few times. Maybe the OP will read Patty's suggestion.

Mine can. :confused:

The only time he couldn't take Equipak in the front portion of the hoof was when it was simply too soft. A toughener helped that along. I'm not saying this is what the OP's horse needs, I have no experience with her horse's problem. Hence I asked the above questions.

That is good. Great sign your horse is getting some depth and protection over the distal end of P3. :D

No question x-rays would be helpful. Were there not some on the other thread? I truthfully cannot remember. However, with changes made to her horse recently in shoeing, would new ones be vaulable here? Compare the old and new?

Absolutely. The OP's desire to figure out what to do and ask for input on this forum all the good advice given here, the team work between the OP's Vet and Farrier things should work out.

I have a different view on Discussion forums than some do, I see it as a good thing. Lack of communications generaly cause more problems. I do not see it as harmfull. This is a great resource for people to ask questions and learn.