Two ??? re:navicular/CHP

[SharaNihan]

I've been dredging around the internet, and found some info I'd like to know more about.

1-The gait of a navicular/CHP horse. From a rider's perspective I've always heard that allowing the horse to travel on the forehand can cause navicular problems. "Wears out the front wheels" so to speak. Then, I found a few sites that comment that a horse experiencing pain in the caudal heel region will actually lean forward. As a rider, would think that that the tendency to want to lean forward would make it very hard to lift that horse off the forehand. Is it true that they lean forward in some cir***stances? (Realizing that navicular isn't always caused by one thing.) Does anyone have a video of the gait of a horse with CHP that they could post for me to see?

2-Hoof testers. How reliable are they as a test for NS/CHP? Some sites say they are a prime indicator, other sites say studies have been done that reveal that only a percentage of NS/CHP horses show a response to hoof testers.

TIA-Cheryl

[Phil Armitage]

Keep it Simple, use the KISS principle.

A horse experienceing pain in their feet are going to alter their gate simple as that. The trick is to locate it and determine the cause. Dr. Rooney says real Navicular desease is man made and more common in jumpers because of the landing and impact on the feet. The phrases "Caudle heel pain" and "Navicular Syndrome" is a fancey way of saying your horse is sore in the back of the foot and we do not know why. The causes can range from simple trush/infection, piece of straw, grit or stone jammed into the sulci of the frog, broken bars and grit tracking up into the seperation. Poor angles, long toe, poor sole depth, stone bruiseing. To very complicate and serious problems like laminitis, degenerative navicular bone and joints, torn or bruised tendons and ligiments, broken navicular bone or coffin bone. High and low Ring bone, side bone and pedal ostietis. The bottom line is a thorough diagnosis, attention to detail by the horse owner, Vet and farrier. It is my understanding that in the Veternary community a toe first landing is now defined as a low grade "opel 1" lameness. The cause of a toe first landing is not always in the feet, injury or pain higher up in the horse can alter a horses gait. Have to evaluate the whole horse. The ideal landing is slightly heel first or flat. With that said horses tend to land slightly outside heel first not flat. We might be able to fix horses and sometime the best we can do is make a decision that the horse needs to change jobs or retire. The worst thing I see in the equine world is a person insisting nothing is wrong and push a horse through pain and cause more problems. I know I am rambleing, but your questions are great and got me going. :D

Last but not least is secondary lameness caused by compensating for the original cause of lameness. People really need to realise the importance of time and patience. Okay I am done. Let the bullets fly. :)

[bumfoot SHOER]

Keep it Simple, use the KISS principle.

A horse experienceing pain in their feet are going to alter their gate simple as that. The trick is to locate it and determine the cause. Dr. Rooney says real Navicular desease is man made and more common in jumpers because of the landing and impact on the feet. The phrases "Caudle heel pain" and "Navicular Syndrome" is a fancey way of saying your horse is sore in the back of the foot and we do not know why. The causes can range from simple trush/infection, piece of straw, grit or stone jammed into the sulci of the frog, broken bars and grit tracking up into the seperation. Poor angles, long toe, poor sole depth, stone bruiseing. To very complicate and serious problems like laminitis, degenerative navicular bone and joints, torn or bruised tendons and ligiments, broken navicular bone or coffin bone. High and low Ring bone, side bone and pedal ostietis. The bottom line is a thorough diagnosis, attention to detail by the horse owner, Vet and farrier. It is my understanding that in the Veternary community a toe first landing is now defined as a low grade "opel 1" lameness. The cause of a toe first landing is not always in the feet, injury or pain higher up in the horse can alter a horses gait. Have to evaluate the whole horse. The ideal landing is slightly heel first or flat. With that said horses tend to land slightly outside heel first not flat. We might be able to fix horses and sometime the best we can do is make a decision that the horse needs to change jobs or retire. The worst thing I see in the equine world is a person insisting nothing is wrong and push a horse through pain and cause more problems. I know I am rambleing, but your questions are great and got me going. :D

Last but not least is secondary lameness caused by compensating for the original cause of lameness. People really need to realise the importance of time and patience. Okay I am done. Let the bullets fly. :)

ok phil why would the bullets fly when 99.9999 percent of what you said is true. bryan:confused:

[caballus]

Excellent answer, Phil! Agree 100%
:) --Gwen

[SharaNihan]

Time to revisit this thread. Good answer Phil, but not really the answer I was looking for. I guess I was hoping to find more answers regarding the effects of collection vs. on the forehand to the hoof.

I finally found info from the McPhail institute that included the riding of Paul Belasik (someone who I consider to be the epitome of what dressage should be) and the findings about the biomechanics of collection vs. on the forehand.

As a farrier, how would you interpert the findings of the forces produced by collection?

http://www.cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/usdf-connection/USDF_July03.pdf

[lstevenson]

I think it's definitely true that horses that are heel sore tend to go even more on the forehand, which makes the problem worse of course. They tend to lean their weight more over their toes.

And many horses with Navicular syndrome do not test positive with hoof testers. They won't necessarily test positive if the problem is deep within the hoof. And they especially will not if it is tendon and ligament related. Which due to MRI they are now finding out that a huge proportion of Navicular Syndrome horses actually have tendon or ligament issues in that area.

[Phil Armitage]

Time to revisit this thread. Good answer Phil, but not really the answer I was looking for. I guess I was hoping to find more answers regarding the effects of collection vs. on the forehand to the hoof.

I finally found info from the McPhail institute that included the riding of Paul Belasik (someone who I consider to be the epitome of what dressage should be) and the findings about the biomechanics of collection vs. on the forehand.

As a farrier, how would you interpert the findings of the forces produced by collection?

http://www.cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/usdf-connection/USDF_July03.pdf

Are you looking for how the rider can cause lameness? Conformation faults, poor rideing, poor saddle fit can lead to problems.

[Jake Whitman]

Keep it Simple, use the KISS principle.

A horse experienceing pain in their feet are going to alter their gate simple as that. The trick is to locate it and determine the cause. Dr. Rooney says real Navicular desease is man made and more common in jumpers because of the landing and impact on the feet. The phrases "Caudle heel pain" and "Navicular Syndrome" is a fancey way of saying your horse is sore in the back of the foot and we do not know why. The causes can range from simple trush/infection, piece of straw, grit or stone jammed into the sulci of the frog, broken bars and grit tracking up into the seperation. Poor angles, long toe, poor sole depth, stone bruiseing. To very complicate and serious problems like laminitis, degenerative navicular bone and joints, torn or bruised tendons and ligiments, broken navicular bone or coffin bone. High and low Ring bone, side bone and pedal ostietis. The bottom line is a thorough diagnosis, attention to detail by the horse owner, Vet and farrier. It is my understanding that in the Veternary community a toe first landing is now defined as a low grade "opel 1" lameness. The cause of a toe first landing is not always in the feet, injury or pain higher up in the horse can alter a horses gait. Have to evaluate the whole horse. The ideal landing is slightly heel first or flat. With that said horses tend to land slightly outside heel first not flat. We might be able to fix horses and sometime the best we can do is make a decision that the horse needs to change jobs or retire. The worst thing I see in the equine world is a person insisting nothing is wrong and push a horse through pain and cause more problems. I know I am rambleing, but your questions are great and got me going. :D

Last but not least is secondary lameness caused by compensating for the original cause of lameness. People really need to realise the importance of time and patience. Okay I am done. Let the bullets fly. :)well said Phil!